Gasser VW

[79TA7.6]

I know Fred’s is a Tdi forum, but the knowledge here is just too good, plus I imagine quite a few own, or work on, non Tdi dubs.
Anyway, I am trying to find my daughter her first car. Been looking at 2011-2015 Jetta and Passats. The 2.5 seems to be a decent engine from what I read. I don’t get a lot of positive info on the 1.8T and read nothing but bad about the 2.0T. I also do not see much about the 1.4T either. What are the pros and cons of these engines? Is it true to stay clean of the 2.0T? Is the 1.4T any good? Which of these are chain versus belt for the timing?
Any help or guidance is appreciated. I know my diesels, but know next to nothing about the gassers.

 

[Nuje]

Of the ones you mention the 1.4T is the clear winner - very good fuel economy, reasonably peppy (150hp, 180ft.lb, I think?), in addition to being probably the most problem-free of the newer gas engines.

The 2.5L is a solid workhorse (170hp), and similarly relatively drama-free, and also comparatively simple being naturally aspirated (no turbo to cause issues).

2.0T will almost certainly require big money by the time it hits ~100K mile; the 1.8T is better, but I don't have much experience with it (nor the other ones FWIW - just chatting with some VW techs who are friends, and some owners of those engines. I've worked on the 2.0T for a few folks and there's not a whole lot that's fun to do on that engine).

 

[Mozambiquer]

There's also the 2.slow non turbo car... Just plain gutless but simple and tough as well.

 

[oilhammer]

Yep, the venerable "two-point-slow" returned to us in the Jetta S, 2011 through 2015, and is easily (by FAR) going to be the most trouble free option. It shares much of its DNA with the ALH. And also, the Aisin 6sp automatic most got bolted to are pretty good. It's a fantastic dram-free cheap car. Easy to maintain, almost impossible to break, and won't get any young person in trouble.

And if you find a '14 or '15, it'll also have the better IRS w/ rear disk brakes. Those are really good cars. They won't win any races, but they'll finish them all.

 

[Windex]

Going to chime in on the 2.5 and the 2.0 CCTA.

The 2.5 is a little on the thirsty side for what it is, but was a very reliable engine for the time that I owned the Golf it was in (2008). The car was a rust bucket, but the engine and trans combo was great (aisin 6spd)

The 2.0 CCTA - I'm "lucky" enough to have 3 of them in the family, and yes they are a pain in the ass - they have weak points that when addressed make them fine, but addressing all of them is costly.

#1 timing chains - Timing chains and tensioners do not suffer poor oil change intervals, and most of these do not get the oil changed often enough. The result is a chain that if it slips will smash valves into pistons and often junk the car if it's old enough.
The condition of the chain is pretty easy to determine if you pull the inspection plug and look at the tensioner, and better yet if you also have access to VCDS and scan group 113 and look for the cam/crank correlation. 0 to -2 is new, -2 to -4 is acceptable, -4 to -5 is time to look at changing it, and -5 or lower is do it now.

If you can turn a wrench, the job is not that bad.

The other stuff that should be done while in there?

Remove the oil screens from the balance shafts and cam bridge, take the intake off and replace the water pump and housing, clean the carbon off the intake valves, change the thermostat, change the PCV, change the fluid and filter in the AISIN 6spd, change the bevel box and rear diff/haldex fluid (tiguan).

Do all that and you can have a decent reliable car, but if you have to pay a shop to do that all, it adds up.

 

[oilhammer]

I would never recommend any of the EA888s to anyone that doesn't have a high tolerance for fragile things.

FWIW, the 1.8L version is what replaced the 2.5L in their lineup. The 2.5L was hands down better, even if its 170hp didn't have as much under the curve as the 1.8L's 170hp.

The early (2005-2007) 3-letter code 2.5L had some issues, and 20 less HP, but they addressed them with the later 4-letter code ones.... the New Beetle got the updates, but remained 150hp and a 3-letter code engine (the BPS).

 

[RexNICO]

You can never go wrong following OH's advice, but it may be easier to find 2.5 cars (Bettle, Golf, Jetta, Passat, Rabbit).

 

[turbobrick240]

The 07K 2.5L has become quite a popular swap for Porsche 944s. With many adding turbo charging.

 

[oilhammer]

The DI turbo factory version would be pretty sweet...

 

[pedroYUL]

I have both a 1.4T (2017) and 2.5L (2013) gassers. No issues with either really.

The 2.5 can haul if you stomp on it, but then drink quite a bit more than the 1.4, which is almost as frugal on the highway as my TDIs.

 

[oilhammer]

I like the EA211 engines (the 1.4 and 1.5t), but I liked them more before I had to do timing belts on several of them LONG before the actual interval came up, because the tensioners fail and the later (2019+) ones with dual VVT have the bolts come out of the exhaust side actuator and spew oil all over the belt. They also have the purge line that cracks, which is integral with the purge valve, which is all one giant piece that goes UNDERNEATH the intake manifold... and absolute DUMB design.

And having to pull that cover off the end of the head to put the cams at TDC is a ridiculously tedious thing, and the SST is not easy to use, especially if the timing is already off, which every single one I have done is because every single one I've done is due to some sort of failure.

And the newer ones, you cannot even actually set the cams to TDC without the electronic SSTs to do so, and that alone is some crazy hour long procedure, involving electronic sensors to index the adjustable VVT sprockets. It's nuts. Watch this video, it's insane:

How to Perform a Timing Adjustment on a VW 1.5 EA211 Engine

 

[79TA7.6]

Thank you all for the replies and great info. As of now I had been not looking at the 1.4T as I was not sure if it would have the reliability or the power of what I read on the 2.5.
I know having a car with too much power for a kid could be a bad thing, but we live out in the country and if the need arises for her to have to pass someone on the highway, I do not want a gutless car that could put her in danger.
So far I have only been able to test drive the 2.5 and was amazed at the power it has.

 

[79TA7.6]

Of the 2.5 and 1.4T which years should we stay away from? I see OH talking about some much newer cars, which are way out of our price range, but when do some of these issues start to creep up on the older, 2011 -2015ish cars?

 

[pedroYUL]

2008+ 2.5L and like OH says earlier than 2019 1.4T

 

[pedroYUL]

I did the timing belt on the 1.4T, yeah it's different than a TDI. Yeah I needed more tools, nope the hoses didn't crack, and I did loctite the little bolts that like to back out.

All in all, not a horrendous job, and the belt is good for 160k miles.

 

[79TA7.6]

I am seeing a few cars that need EVAP valve. Is this common on the gas engines? Or is this telling of other issues that are coming around the corner? Seeing these on 1.4 and the 2.5.

 

[pedroYUL]

Keep reading, I had the code on the 2.5, forget the exact code. All it needed was wiping some light gunk off the intake tract.

 

[privateTDIjet]

My sister has a 2.0 that only does short trips for over 8 years now. Starting last year, it started to misfire badly. Changed out the spark plugs, cables and eventually it came back. Ran a can of intake cleaner which helped a lot but only temporarily. Now, trying to redline it is impossible. It always keeps having hiccups and terrible power.

On the other hand, my girlfriends 2.5 rabbit has not had any issues, is higher mileage and lives the same short trips.

From my experience, I wouldnt recommend the 2.slow for short trips. It's been a great car but telling a girl she has to redline it once in a while goes through one ear and out the other.

 

[oilhammer]

The base 2.0L does need the ignition coil once in a while, but it is easy and not a big deal. That's really about the only thing that you ever have to mess with on them. Timing belt is cake easy, every 100k miles. Oil change is easy, every 10k miles. They don't have variable ANYTHING, so no VVTs, no variable oil pump and its associated bits, no variable twin path intake runner nonsense, no variable valving or cam actuators like the EA888s have, no turbo, no nothing to break. I don't ever do much of anything to them. I told my uncle to go buy one (a Jetta S) when his second Elantra started to fall apart... it's a 2014, only option is the slushbox, and other than scheduled PM, it has only had its ignition system replaced once, and the factory radio died. That's it. 170k miles, 11 years old. Hasn't even needed brakes yet. The NCS cars in general can of course have compliance bushings go bad, but honestly even those seem to be incredibly longer lasting on the S, I guess because the engine is lighter, doesn't have as much power, and they still sport the little 280mm brakes on the front. I would try and avoid the earlier years, only because those (and some of the lesser trimmed 2.5 cars) have drum brakes in back. Not that there should be anything wrong with that, but those specific drum brakes wear out abnormally fast, both the shoes AND the drums, and eat up the little friction nubs on the backing plates which can in turn cause them to tear up the backing plates themselves, plus they just don't ever seem to have a good pedal feel to me. That's why I specifically call out the 2014 and 2015 cars as the best ones. They also seem to work better for highway use, than the earlier cars equipped with a version of the same basic engine, because they are geared taller. Which means the 5sp won't feel quite as peppy around town, but it'll get into triple digits just as easy as a TDI, and won't need to spin any faster. I think their gearing is pretty close to an ALH. And the automatic, having 6 ratios, does a good job of letting the 115hp get the car moving and behave pretty well.

 

[79TA7.6]

So ended up getting a 2013 Passat with the 2.5. 102k miles, $4400. Really peppy.
Does the sport mode do anything besides change the shift points? Maybe turns off traction control?

The only issues I have encountered is a transmission whine, 6 speed auto so assuming DSG. I am hoping a fluid change will cure this. Need to figure out how to do that.
The other issue is there seems to be a real light film of oil in the coolant. Drove it home 280 miles and just noticed this afternoon after it sat since getting home late last night. What are the chances this is an oil cooler issue and not a head gasket? Best way to check?

Anyway, car looks really good. Only really concerned with the oily coolant.

 

[Nuje]

Pretty sure if it's a DSG, it says DSG on the shifter surround. (And pretty sure the Passat of that era got the Aisin automatic.)

 

[oilhammer]

The only automatic the 2.5L got bolted to is the 6sp Aisin (09G), never a DSG.

Change the ATF now, as they are often overlooked. Look online for Idemitsu brand TLS-LV fluid. It's [essentially] a Toyota transmission, may as well use the less expensive OEM fluid in it. The Volkswagen dealer will just sell you the same thing in their bottle for thrice the money.

The big common thing on all the 2.5L is the vacuum pump leaking oil. Contrary to what the book tells you, and the dealers will charge you for, you do NOT need to remove the transmission to R&R the pump. You can take the pump partially apart and get it out in pieces. Don't bother buying a new pump, as Pierburg has like so many other sold their souls to China, and the new ones are crap. Just find a rebuild kit:

volkswagen 2.5 vacuum pump rebuild kit - Google Search

... and fix it that way. Get to it BEFORE it starts barfing oil all over the place.

Some other 2.5L tips:

Get the engine code, it'll be one of two, CBTA or CBUA. The code is on the tag in the trunk floor, near the spare tire, or on the valve cover, under the air cleaner assembly. Or the dealer can tell you by VIN. Helpful to know which it is when ordering anything.

They hold 5.5L of 502.00-compliant 5W40 oil, the Mann filter is HU719/6x (Mann makes the filter housing assembly, so best to use that element). Do NOT overtighten it!!!

They can, and often do, consume some oil... until you know that particular engine's appetite, monitor it closely. They have a 10k mile service interval, same as the rest, no need to do it any more frequently, just make sure it stays full.

The air filter is on the bottom side of that giant engine cover, which can stick to the rubber mounts which hold it to the engine... best to pry it up and pop it loose when the engine is warm, you'll need to remove the CT clamp to the air inlet tube to get it loose, as well as a couple little Torx screws at the cold air inlet. Only reason to take that off is to replace the air filter (every 60k) or the spark plugs (every 40k). You'll also need to remove it to access the purge valve, which sometimes fails (right up top).

Ignition coils are somewhat common to fail, so I'd plan on just replacing them at 120k.... they are not that expensive for Bosch ones.

In some cases, if the car maybe wasn't cared for as well as it should have been, the little oil pickup tube can clog up and cause oil pressure warnings once warm... just take the lower pan off and replace that little tube with its little seal. Not hard, pan held on with sealant.

That engine does not specifically require premium gasoline, one of the few VAG engines that doesn't. Don't "top off" the tank.... ever... that just causes the already weak leak detection pump to die faster.

Rear calipers are common, because dipshits don't use the parking brake. This also causes the front brakes to get overworked, which warps the rotors and beats the crap out of the control arm compliance bushings. I do NMS Passat compliance bushings a LOT.

All in all, I'd say that's a good car. Kinda big, so great for rear seat passengers. They can get low to mid 30s on the highway if you Tip it and keep it in 6th and don't go too fast, which is decent for a car that size that is saddled with spark plugs.

 

[79TA7.6]

Thank you for the info. And I forgot that I had read elsewhere that this should have the Aisin trans.

Are you thinking my oil issue could be the vacuum pump, or are you just saying that I need to start paying attention to it now? I forgot to mention in my previous post that it is leaking oil, appears to be the filter housing, thus why I was assuming maybe the cooler was the culprit for the light oil film in the reservoir.

 

[oilhammer]

It's usually the vacuum pump leaking, which runs down from the top all over the front of the engine and transmission. It gets all over, makes a huge mess.

Poor quality (Chinese) oil filter seals will also leak, and overtightened oil filter caps will warp and distort the plastic oil filter housing, but that leak is usually much worse, like actively dripping on the ground while the engine is running worse. And to replace the oil filter housing, you'll need to take the intake manifold off. Which is a big job, but not terrible, especially under the hood of the larger NMS (it's the NB that has such tight quarters... hard to believe they stuffed that engine under the hood of one of those, but they did!).

 

[Windex]

The whine noise is more likely the engine oil pump rather than the trans. See if it quiets some once the engine fully warms.
Pretty normal for the 2.5s I have heard and owned.

And yes, you can weasel that vac pump out in pieces to reseal... No need to pull the transmission. Been there done that.

 

[oilhammer]

All 5 cylinders (and 10 cyl, for that matter), have a unique "drone" sort of sound to them... it one of those things that is hard to describe, but of you know, you know. Even Honda, Volvo, and GM inline fives have it. It isn't specific to VAG engines, just that VAG has been using them since the late '70s.

 

[79TA7.6]

The whine is only present when the car is in motion. Thus why I am assuming it is the trans.

The oil is a drip while running. I seen the front of the oil filter housing was covered in oil, then was able to see it drip while looking at it. It was a fairly steady drip, maybe once every 10 seconds or so.

 

[oilhammer]

Oh yeah, you need an oil filter housing then. For sure. Up to you, but not a bad time to go ahead and do the thermostat and stuff, as the intake has to come off for that, too.

I'd only use genuine Volkswagen stuff... the aftermarket Chinese plastics are terrible and do not last.

The whine.... could it be a bad wheel bearing? I'd describe that more as a roar than a whine, but it'll change pitch if you swerve side to side while in motion.