FYI: DPF regen info from my '09 TDI

dieselmike

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Is there a way to make my 09 Jetta regen manually? Mine always seems to wait till I get close to work or home before I start seeing my pyro climb way up. I then have to turn off the engine and restart it to cool off the turbo. Don't want to shut down when the pyro is at about 1200 d and hotter.
 

dweisel

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dieselmike said:
Is there a way to make my 09 Jetta regen manually? Mine always seems to wait till I get close to work or home before I start seeing my pyro climb way up. I then have to turn off the engine and restart it to cool off the turbo. Don't want to shut down when the pyro is at about 1200 d and hotter.
Depending on your drive,but you could try running in 4th or 5th gear at a constant 2000 rpms for 20 minutes. Sometimes I've had that work and other times not,it just depends on whether it needs to regen or not. You mention shutting down and then restarting. Why not just open the door and listen to see if its in a regen or not. If it is let it continue to run until it finishes.


Dweisel
 

JSWTDI09

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dieselmike said:
Is there a way to make my 09 Jetta regen manually? Mine always seems to wait till I get close to work or home before I start seeing my pyro climb way up. I then have to turn off the engine and restart it to cool off the turbo. Don't want to shut down when the pyro is at about 1200 d and hotter.
There is a way to start an "emergency" regeneration, but it requires VCDS or the dealer's diagnostic computer. This is not really recommended unless it is really necessary (hence the word "emergency"). Dweisels method above should work perfectly well unless your DPF is pretty clogged.

Have Fun!

Don
 

DoctorDawg

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Its like the old joke about "how many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb? Just one, but the bulb has to want to change."

If your ECU wants to perform a regen then driving under the conditions described above will enable it to. But if it doesn't want to, then the VCDS emergency regen is the only available option, and it really isn't something civilians should be doing on a whim (IMHO).
 

scrappytdi

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THis is a great thread!
I am new to the TDI world (but not the diesel world, I have had 3 Cummins Diesels and have a 6.7L right now) My Jetta has 522 mi. as of tonight on my way to work. I took a 72 mile drive today and I believe I had a Regen @ ~32 mi. of that trip. I did notice a slight increase in rpms and the HOT exhaust smell but I did not notice the fans running. Now I know what to look for to tell if it is in regen.
I had ~450 miles on it when it was Regenning. My drive to work is 5 mi with all but 3/8mi. @50 mph.
unless my car regenned right after I bought it(54 miles @ time of purchase), my regen frequency is less?
is 50 mph @ 1600 rpm enough for a passive regen?


Someone mentioned boost @ idle earlier in this thread. If the TDI VGT works like the one in my 6.7, the vanes will close down to increase backpressure and EGT. also with the vanes closed, the turbo will be making boost due to the restricted flow area in the turbine section. my 6.7 will make 3-4 psi with the exhaust brake engaged(VGT closed almost completely to create backpressure).
 

wild03

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THis is a great thread!
I am new to the TDI world (but not the diesel world, I have had 3 Cummins Diesels and have a 6.7L right now) My Jetta has 522 mi. as of tonight on my way to work. I took a 72 mile drive today and I believe I had a Regen @ ~32 mi. of that trip. I did notice a slight increase in rpms and the HOT exhaust smell but I did not notice the fans running. Now I know what to look for to tell if it is in regen.
I had ~450 miles on it when it was Regenning. My drive to work is 5 mi with all but 3/8mi. @50 mph.
unless my car regenned right after I bought it(54 miles @ time of purchase), my regen frequency is less?
is 50 mph @ 1600 rpm enough for a passive regen?


Someone mentioned boost @ idle earlier in this thread. If the TDI VGT works like the one in my 6.7, the vanes will close down to increase backpressure and EGT. also with the vanes closed, the turbo will be making boost due to the restricted flow area in the turbine section. my 6.7 will make 3-4 psi with the exhaust brake engaged(VGT closed almost completely to create backpressure).
Welcome scrappy,

I'm no expert by any means, but I think your commute is short enough that you will probably be in the group that has to keep an eye on regens. my commute is 8 miles each way and I thought I was bortherline. yours with 5 is really past that. Unless you take the car on weekends for longer drives you might have issues.

the problem is that there's no easy way of triggering when you want a regen to start, therefore they will start when the ECU wants to. the ECU doesn't know if you are reaching a destination or not. If the ECU needs ~2 miles or so to warm up and kick the regen in the morning then that leaves you with 3 or less miles to complete it. In my opinion not enough. same on your way back home.

I had issues early on with NOS buildup on Cat (see my sig) and That was because I would stop by the store within my 8 mile commute, I don't believe I interrupted regens but it was enough to cause things to star clogging. I've since stopped doing this and now run the entire trip in one shot. I also do my best from interrupting regens. It would probably be OK but If I have the time I don't risk it. I just take a rural road by my home for 5 miles and enjoy the view.

don't worry about the frequency, as this will increase or decrease depending on the ECU calculations.

I recommend a VCSD tool and taking the car on the open road on the weekends.

What do others think? Doc?

In any case It is insteresting to have someone like you around to provide feedback on the effects of short trips. Who knows you might have no issues at all, and it will be an indicator that this technology is working not just for the highway but for short trips as well.
 
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DoctorDawg

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Yeah, short trip driving is going to interrupt a considerable fraction of regens. Fortunately both of you live in Florida, so your odds of completing a regen on a short drive are better than most folks (since your engine warms up faster than most North Americans' do).

If its a big enough deal for you, one approach would be to use VCDS to read the "Regenerations requested" parameter. When this value is 4 at the end of a drive its a very good bet (in my experience, at least) that the ECU is going to try to perform a regen on your next trip. Knowing this, you could just take your baby out for a spirited highway romp of, say, 20 miles, and git 'er done.

It occurs to me that some enterprising TDIClubber with a good working knowledge of digital electronics and an understanding of the VAG bus communication protocol could prolly pretty easily design a small box that would plug into the dash port and illuminate an LED whenever "Regenerations requested" flipped from "3" to "4". This would be a pretty nice public service. I know I'd buy one (if the price was right, of course). Plugging in my laptop and wading through VCDS's less than elegant interface just to check the value of "Regenerations requested" after every drive is just too much like work to do on a regular basis.
 
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Jack Frost

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A thermocouple taped to the exhaust pipe might work well. All one would have to do is have a voltmeter in the cabin wired to it. The voltmeter would show that a regen was going on when the resistance of the thermocouple drops due to the heating up of the thermocouple.

To get a bit fancier, one could easily design a simple digital device that would light up a LED when the thermocouple's resistance dropped below a certain threshold.
 

scrappytdi

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Well I have a little update.
I have put about 300 mi. on the car since my last post in this thread. nearly all of the trips have been ~5 mi. I believe I have had another regen tonight.
I drove 10 mi. to the pharmacy to p/u a script for the wife and when I got in line @ the drive thru I could smell the "hot exhaust smell" and a little burning rubber smell. I could also hear the "snap crackle pop" from the hot exhaust over the car idling BUT there was no noticeable fan speed increase. I wonder if the fans are a CBEA thing and not a CJAA thing. Or did I drive it long enough for the regen to occur w/o turning the fans up?
I do believe that the car does passively regen from this and my last regen events. I had 450 mi. before the first regen and about 150-200 mi. of that was extended and/or high speed trips(greater than 50 mph/longer than 5 mi.). this event only had 290 mi. with MAYBE 20-30 mi. of 50+mph/5+mi. trips.

The car registers 140+ on the CT guage within a mile of driving. I am now trying to convince my wife I need VAG COM!
 

TDIMeister

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Another way to determine if regeneration is taking place is to monitor the signal values from the lambda and cat temperature sensors.
 

wild03

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Well I have a little update.
I have put about 300 mi. on the car since my last post in this thread. nearly all of the trips have been ~5 mi. I believe I have had another regen tonight.
I drove 10 mi. to the pharmacy to p/u a script for the wife and when I got in line @ the drive thru I could smell the "hot exhaust smell" and a little burning rubber smell. I could also hear the "snap crackle pop" from the hot exhaust over the car idling BUT there was no noticeable fan speed increase. I wonder if the fans are a CBEA thing and not a CJAA thing. Or did I drive it long enough for the regen to occur w/o turning the fans up?
I do believe that the car does passively regen from this and my last regen events. I had 450 mi. before the first regen and about 150-200 mi. of that was extended and/or high speed trips(greater than 50 mph/longer than 5 mi.). this event only had 290 mi. with MAYBE 20-30 mi. of 50+mph/5+mi. trips.

The car registers 140+ on the CT guage within a mile of driving. I am now trying to convince my wife I need VAG COM!
Hmm, The Fans is one of the things I notice the most, Also you did not mention your idle speed. You should've noticed the engine at 900RPM instead of the 800rpm it usually idles at.

Yup, the Vag-com would take the guessing out of things, Sometimes If I want to make sure a regen occured I just do a scan and check the miles since last regen.

Jack Frost said:
A thermocouple taped to the exhaust pipe might work well. All one would have to do is have a voltmeter in the cabin wired to it. The voltmeter would show that a regen was going on when the resistance of the thermocouple drops due to the heating up of the thermocouple.

To get a bit fancier, one could easily design a simple digital device that would light up a LED when the thermocouple's resistance dropped below a certain threshold.
How about a Barbeque Thermometer, could be a Fancy wireless one $40

http://www.amazon.com/Maverick-RediChek-Remote-Wireless-Thermometer/dp/B0000DIU49

or this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Maverick-Industries-OT-3-Bakers-Thermometer/dp/B0013JSU0O/ref=pd_sbs_k_1

which has a clamp on the probe, Like it was meant to be clamped around an exhaust pipe. :)

Even if the outside of the pipe is expected to reach temperatures outside its specs, it could be buffered somehow and the offset taken into account, I'm sure the jump in temperature would be easily notisable.
Some of these devices have the added benefit of having a Lo/Hi temperature alarm, Set the alarm high enough to be triggered by a regen and you can't miss another cycle!
One can go all fancy with this, from powering it with the car to taking it appart and somehow blending in the display/controls to the dash.
 
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scrappytdi

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Hmm, The Fans is one of the things I notice the most, Also you did not mention your idle speed. You should've noticed the engine at 900RPM instead of the 800rpm it usually idles at.
the idle was @ 800 still.
I am thinking I might have actually caught the tail end of the regen as the exhaust was cooling down. since the regen is supposed to take less than 15 min and the trip was about 15 min.?
 

wild03

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How about a WiFi EGT sensor install it in your exhaust pipe and read it on your smartphone....
http://www.aemelectronics.com/x-wifi-wideband-uego-and-egt-wireless-gauge-controller-1158
(Also handy for safely answering the eternal question "How hot does the exhaust get during a diesel runaway?"
$333?? Ouch A little to expensive for my taste, I favor the cheapest solutions as most elegant.

I'm thinking Grill thermometer on top of the dash, Alarm set for Turkey medium well, and I'm set to go. :D
 

TDIMeister

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The cheapest and most elegant solution is to use something that's already in the car.
 

wild03

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Post 191.
Okay...and you expect us to monitor these signals how? please stop being vague in your replies, since you mention cheapest and elegant, can you provide the details and the dollar amount investment your solution will require.
 

scrappytdi

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Well I have an update of sorts.

my car now has ~1470 miles on it and I have interrupted the last 4 regenerations(the only way that I can even tell anymore if it is in regeneration is when I shut it off and the fans keep running.
those 4 regenerations happened @340 mi,180 mi, 80 mi, and 155 mi. intervals. If I knew it was doing a regeneration before I shut it down then I could have kept driving to let it finish!
the short trips are not going to be a good thing long term but I am getting ready to move and am looking @ a longer commute. I wonder if adding an EGT gauge in the manifold would be a good indicator for regeneration? I know it was on my truck!
 

TDIMeister

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That's too vague, GF. Some people just need to have their hands held and be spoon-fed for every little detail from start-to-finish. :rolleyes:
 

Drivbiwire

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VCDS, read the data blocks.

On our Bluetecs all the data is right there, back pressure, temperatures, SCR readouts....


As you can see this is our low mileage SUV, nothing but city (Hauling kids and family) aka the "Nanny Mobile" :) The GL gets the worst possible driving conditions, short trips (less than 10 miles), A/C on all the time, top speed of 45mph etc. The DPF is managing quite well as you can see by the stored soot values (0 Grams) althoug it just had a regen 60 miles ago. Urea consumption has also been VERY low, I think in 5500 miles we have used approx 2.5 gallons at most, the tank is showing 85% full thus far according to Xentry.

A nice feature is that we can read the full history of the burnoff cycles and SCR injection rates...last time is was about 6 pages (make that 8, I just checked) long, I was impressed at the amount of data they are recording on these things.

The best solution if you ask me, go for a drive and cook the cat!
 
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KILL CARB and the US EPA

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I've been making some further observations of the DPF via VAG-COM since the OP, and have learned a few things:

1. Somewhat counterintuitively, the value for "Particle filter carbon mass (act.)" never changes; it stays at zero, day-in and day-out. I'm guessing this would be the value determined by an actual carbon sensor if the DPF had one, which it apparently does not.

2. On the other hand, the value for "Particle filter carbon mass (spec.)" does change, on the order of once every 5 minutes or so, while you drive. It can go up, or it can go down. As I mentioned in my OP, when I first discovered this parameter its value was 14.4. This morning, when the missus and I went out for brunch, its value was 12.0 prior to starting the engine (still only 3 regens shown by VAG-COM, so its decrease was not caused by a regen), and over the course of a 20 minute mostly-city drive it increased, in three steps, to 12.9. I recall reading sommers that ECU determines when a regen is needed based on two things: (i) the pressure differential across the DPF, and (ii) the results of a model of carbon accumulation based on your driving profile. So I'm guessing that "Particle filter carbon mass (spec.)" stores the predicted carbon accumulation calculated by this model.

3. OK, this one's really interesting. When you log the pre-DPF and post-DPF temperatures while driving, when the engine is under load (accelerating or climbing a hill) you'll observe that the pre-DPF temperature is higher than the post-DPF temperature...no big surprise here. BUT...when the engine is not under load (while coasting, driving on the flat with no acceleration, or idling) the pre-DPF temperature drops more than the post-DPF temperature does, so that the post- temperature actually ends up (and stays) higher than the pre- temperature. The graph below documents this (data is from a fully warmed-up engine that had been idling for about 3 minutes before data collection started):



(Between 140 and 180 seconds on this graph I brought the RPMs up to 2000 (while still in Park), because I want to use the pressure differential at 2K RPM in Park as my standard measure of DPF obstruction in future).

Notice how the post-DPF temperature stays 12-15 *C higher than the pre- temperature (except while I'm revving the engine)? There are only a few things that could account for this:

(a) The DPF has an electric heater. Not a chance. Fuggedabadit!

(b) Condensation of vapor to liquid within the DPF is heating it. This is formally possible, but I don't believe it. How much condensation would you be seeing at around 200 *C? And if you were seeing enough to heat the DPF by 12-15 degrees, you'd have liquid pouring out of your tailpipe.

(c) By far the most plausible explanation is that the DPF experiences some measure of passive regeneration during normal operation...i.e., some soot is oxidizing continuously inside the DPF, which would indeed heat it somewhat. In my recent readings regarding DPFs I've seen it mentioned several times that passive regeneration can indeed occur, but it is more or less efficient in different exhaust system designs. It is most efficient when the NOx trap or cat is placed after the DPF, because NOx is a strong oxidant and so will promote some oxidation of soot in the DPF at normal operating temperature. If I'm reading correctly the picture of the exhaust system recently posted by Drivbiwire, that appears to be the case in the '09: the NOx storage catalyst is downstream of the DPF(?).

So I'm thinkin' this is a good thing! The more passive regeneration the DPF does, the less active regeneration it needs...and, thus, the less of a hit it imposes on fuel economy, since active regen requires extra fuel supplied via post-combustion injection, whereas passive regen is essentially free. Yay, VW!

Something else which this observation suggests is that the more you drive in such a way as to stay out of the smoke zone, the less soot you deposit in the DPF, and thus the better its chances of keeping itself unobstructed via passive regeneration rather than requiring an active regen...and, thus, the better your MPGs. So there's yet another way in which smoke kills your fuel economy, folks.



the rise in temp under flat loading is the normal catalyst reaction? no:rolleyes:
 

MacBuckeye

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tracking DFP data with VAGCOM

Those of you with a VAGCOM, what type of info are you tracking or monitoring? I got my VAGCOM about 1 month ago and decided to start tracking some info. Curiosity more than anything. I'm having zero problems with my car. I figured since I spent $350 for a VAGCOM, I might as well use it.

I was able to get some temp readings just as a regen was ending.
Temp Prior to Catalytic Converter: 475 deg F
Temp Prior to Particulate Filter: 759 deg F
I sat with the car running and within 10 minutes or so, these two temps dropped to 377 and 431 respectively. I don't believe I caught the regen soon enough, so I wonder how hot these two components really were at their peak. Anyone have similar experience or actual readings?

I have some other data that I will try and post in the next day or so- specifically about regens and DPF stuff.
 

MacBuckeye

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DPF data from VAGCOM

Here is the data I gathered so far. I'm hoping these are going to be "average" readings for a car with this amount of miles? Comments/concerns are welcome.
 

MonsterTDI09

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El Dobro

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Looks like Peugeot uses that fluid.
 
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