Fuel tank ruptured

[That Guy]

Paul, despite how some people have responded, thank you for documenting this issue. You've done a great job at replying to everyone's inquiries.

I agree....it's good to have this info in case of future incidents. Thanks Paul.

 

[MayorDJQ]

Not in significant quantities. One of the lovely benefits of always-lean fuel-throttled combustion, you have enough excess O2 in the chamber to be certain you get a high ratio of CO2:CO in your byproducts.

Well how much is needed to be a problem? If you have an exhaust leak, the fumes will enter through that abomination of a repair. Regardless of the qua tity or ratio of CO, it's still not healthy.

 

[jasonTDI]

Well how much is needed to be a problem? If you have an exhaust leak, the fumes will enter through that abomination of a repair. Regardless of the qua tity or ratio of CO, it's still not healthy.

It wouldn't be an issue. MAYBE several days in a closed garage. The other stuff you make you sick first before the CO.

 

[pauld]

Do you know the Manufacturer of the Fuel Pump? or the suppliers of the fueling system? may do a search on the manufacturer's see if there are any failures.

BTW.... interesting read....
http://www.thesmokemachine.com/TEC1608.pdf

Thank you for the link.
Here is the pump manufacturer:

and here is problem described in the document:

Actually, one of the connectors was corroded!

 

[That Guy]

Interesting.

Try using Dielectric grease on the electrical connections of your new sender/pump. It's non conductive so it won't short anything out. It's job is to keep moisture and other crap away from the electrical connections.

I had some odd electrical issues a few years back and found some mild corrosion to be the problem. Since then I've used it on all kinds of connections in the vehicle. Haven't had a problem since.

It's fairly common stuff. You shouldn't have too much trouble finding some.

It can prevent a connection from working....but in that case you probably have a loose connection that needs attention anyway.

I use the silicone dielectric grease.

[Edit]
Wait...those connections in your picture look like they are on inside of the fuel sender unit. If they are exposed to diesel the dielectric grease probably won't work as I'm pretty sure the diesel would disovle it.

There must be a bit of water in that fuel for that to corrode. But diesel floats on top of any water....and those connections are at the top of the tank.....??

If it wasn't connected properly electrical arcing could have caused a corrosion look....and possibly the ignition...although I'm not seeing any evidence of burning in that area. Or is there?

 

[compu_85]

Yikes!!

I'm just wondering how common this might be (without the catastrophic failure I mean). How many of us have actually pulled up the carpet in our cars and looked at that area? It might pay to take a peek.

I've been in contact with many MK2, MK3, and MK4 volkswagens. I have NEVER seen one with the area around the fuel pickup access deformed like that.

-J

 

[Curkkic]

paul. turn it in to your insurance. you will get full value for the car. plus the repairs that were not done to safety spec. just have it totaled out and by another one.

 

[turbocharged798]

paul. turn it in to your insurance. you will get full value for the car. plus the repairs that were not done to safety spec. just have it totaled out and by another one.

It's not that easy to just "buy another one". Have you tried shopping for a tdi lately? They are rare, expensive, and often toofed up.

There is absolutely no reason for it to look like that. Like it was mentioned above, a good body shop will have it fixed in no time. It does not have to look pretty as nobody really sees it.




I think I know what happened with the "exploded fuel tank". The root is due to the loose connector causing sparks. There must have been a slight trace of gasoline in the fuel. Normally, the gas wouldn't ignite due to a rich fuel mixture, but if there was only slight amounts, it will allow enough oxygen to mix with the vapor. Once the vapor/oxygen mixture was just right, BOOM went the tank. That's why it didn't happen when the tank was full. It was too rich. Once enough air was allowed into the tank, the mixture became right for kaboom.

 

[Dimitri16V]

VW recalled cars before for fuel tank/pump issues .... Cabrios and Sciroccos were recalled in the late 80s and the recall stayed open for years. the in tank pump would seize and overheat
BTW, the pump maker should be Pierburg or VDO/siemens

 

[Curkkic]

It's not that easy to just "buy another one". Have you tried shopping for a tdi lately? They are rare, expensive, and often toofed up. .

yeah actually i keep my eye out for one with a blown head or timing jump something which makes them realtitively cheap and they are plentiful... having fund on the other hand is another story...

 

[dieselmike]

Spilling fuel upon refueling

Have been spilling fuel while fueling up my 09 Jetta. It would come from under the car, the nozzle won't click weather I was filling fast or slow. NOT using the hi flow pumps. Took it to the dealer for the 20K service, and they looked at the tank. Said I will need a new tank for some valve was stuck on or in the tank which was not allowing the nozzle to click. Anyone else having issues with this too??

 

[40X40]

Have been spilling fuel while fueling up my 09 Jetta. It would come from under the car, the nozzle won't click weather I was filling fast or slow. NOT using the hi flow pumps. Took it to the dealer for the 20K service, and they looked at the tank. Said I will need a new tank for some valve was stuck on or in the tank which was not allowing the nozzle to click. Anyone else having issues with this too??

I posted an answer in your own thread.

Bill

 

[BigAndy]

Pauld -- I think you tank could very well have exploded (or as those in the aircraft industry would prefer -- encountered an overpressure condition) as a result of the vapour igniting.

http://tc.engr.wisc.edu/uer/uer00/author2/content.html#7

If you read the 'fuel combustibility' section, it lends credence to your incident. I'd be interested to know what has changed with regards to fuel chemistry with ULSD and whether ULSD vapour has a lower flashpoint.

If someone has a wrecked unit like Pauld's and want's to play, they could pressurize the tank and see how much psi it takes to deform the underseat panels.

 

[MOGolf]

Pauld -- I think you tank could very well have exploded (or as those in the aircraft industry would prefer -- encountered an overpressure condition) as a result of the vapour igniting.

http://tc.engr.wisc.edu/uer/uer00/author2/content.html#7

If you read the 'fuel combustibility' section, it lends credence to your incident. I'd be interested to know what has changed with regards to fuel chemistry with ULSD and whether ULSD vapour has a lower flashpoint.

If someone has a wrecked unit like Pauld's and want's to play, they could pressurize the tank and see how much psi it takes to deform the underseat panels.

An interesting project for Mythbusters. They couldn't get fuel tank explosions by shooting them. Maybe they want to try with internal electrical sparks?

 

[pauld]

paul. turn it in to your insurance. you will get full value for the car. plus the repairs that were not done to safety spec. just have it totaled out and by another one.

Thank you for good advice.
It is not total in Carolina. Fuel tank explosion is considered a mechanical failure and not covered by insurance, but comprehensive covers damage to the car by exploded tank, which is around $750-950 based on different estimations. Fortunately, I have very low deductible for comprehensive, and it works better for me than getting money for bad repair from Carolina Volkswagen.

Finally, I got official denial letter from Volkswagen. They called it "tank split"
I opened new case via BBB asking VWoA to investigate the problem. I do not think that it will be helpful, but it worth to try.

 

[Dimitri16V]

the problem lies with the quality of the contacts on the electrical connectors in newer VWs . I had numerous watercooled VWs so far and never had so many burnt and overheated connectors as in my MK4s .

 

[BigAndy]

An interesting project for Mythbusters. They couldn't get fuel tank explosions by shooting them. Maybe they want to try with internal electrical sparks?

That was quite the interesting show, eh. They couldn't get fuel to burn into the tank from 'the leak'.

On another front, when we are burning brush piles in the bush, we use a combination of diesel and gas. There are several incidents where the torches we use have the vapour ignite inside and blow out the base of the torch. That base is designed as the weak point to avert injury to the user.

I'll post a picture of the result of such a blown out torch. The result is similar to pauld's tank.

Those who think diesel vapour can't ignite are quite ignorant of chemistry.

 

[Dimitri16V]

Diesel vapor will ignite , so does flour dust

 

[That Guy]

Yes...I've heard of grain elevators exploding like they were packed with dynamite.....just from grain dust igniting.

 

[pauld]

All my previous attempts to reach VW failed. I tried to reopen the case with VWoA, BBB autoline, etc.


In the beginning of June, I sent one more letter to VWoA asking to investigate the incident, since if there is a defect, it might endanger lives. I also attached pictures.

I was surprised, but somehow it attracted attention at executive level this time. The case was re-opened, I was asked to bring old parts and my car to a nearest dealership.
VWoA sent an engineer on site who spent a day going trough the car, inspecting parts, taking fuel samples, etc. Moreover, they promised to reimburse my repair expenses.
In my opinion, VWoA is doing now what respected manufacturer should be done from the beginning.

 

[kooyajerms]

I'm very proud of you. If only the rest of us would be so dilligent in getting VW to deliver what they are supposed to. Hoorah!

 

[K5ING]

That's great news! Back when Len Hunt was in charge of VWoNA, he and I got to be email buddies. One day, I tried to tell him that while VWs were great, the dealer networks and VW's customer service department sucked and that was hurting VW's image with the public. "I don't care how good your cars are, your reputation is only as good as the people that the customer has to deal with themselves." is what I told him. That's about the time he stopped Blackberrying me...LOL!!

Glad to see that someone upstairs is trying to change that.

 

[Dimitri16V]

All my previous attempts to reach VW failed. I tried to reopen the case with VWoA, BBB autoline, etc.


In the beginning of June, I sent one more letter to VWoA asking to investigate the incident, since if there is a defect, it might endanger lives. I also attached pictures.

I was surprised, but somehow it attracted attention at executive level this time. The case was re-opened, I was asked to bring old parts and my car to a nearest dealership.
VWoA sent an engineer on site who spent a day going trough the car, inspecting parts, taking fuel samples, etc. Moreover, they promised to reimburse my repair expenses.
In my opinion, VWoA is doing now what respected manufacturer should be done from the beginning.

Great news...thank the government for going after Toyota, all car companies are paying more attention now. notice how many more recalls were issued after the Toyota story ?

 

[engineerorange]

I took the car back to the dealer and asked to fix it.
Here is the fix:

It is Carolina Volkswagen, btw.

I see that nothing has changed at Carolina VW since 2005 when I last visited. This type of repair is apparently covered in their employee orientation seminar.

 

[Aquaticmind]

I see that nothing has changed at Carolina VW since 2005 when I last visited. This type of repair is apparently covered in their employee orientation seminar.

I'm not even sure what's going on there.. but it looks like a duct tape repair.

 

[Powder Hound]

Obviously. The problem is that the unibody was compromised, and duct tape was supposed to fix it while sealing against diesel fuel leakage. IMO, a really proper repair would involve a new unibody, which no one was willing to do. At the very least, a new section would have to be mig or tig welded into place. A donor car from which you could cut out a new section would need to be found, since it is certain that VW would take months (if ever) to provide such a piece.

 

[kcfoxie]

Wow... that's all I can say. This is an amazing read.

 

[Nutsnbolts]

What I think is funny is that the floorpan wasn't that out of shape when they started, so their solution was to take a mallet (so they wouldn't leave marks on the floor, no doubt) and beat the daylights out of it to force it down. Then, they put the fuel pump cover on wrong (there is an orientation- the bend in the middle is supposed to run from left to right, and the single screw goes towards the rear of the car), and tried to screw it on anyway, which is why the gaps were so large. In hindsight, I think that it would have been better to leave the floorpan alone, and put the fuel pump cover on correctly, and it would have fit and sealed properly, no duct tape needed. Whoosh.

-Rich

 

[Honeydew]

He posted a pic of the second fix in his FS thread:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3042739&postcount=7

 

[Nutsnbolts]

Right- I meant before fix #2...