Fuel Additive

cp

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usa
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2006 TDI Beetle
I guess you never worked in an engineering department in manufacturing. I did and if it wasn't a problem in the factory it wasn't deemed a problem to the company. Factory engineers are not gods just people payed to do a job that satisfies the requirements of the factory they work for. The solution to water in the fuel would have been buy good fuel "not my problem" what you as an owner of our product buys and uses is not our problem. You give these engineers to much credit.
You guessed wrong. As a matter of fact, I was an engineer at a manufacturing plant for 25 years.
 

surg7498

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well well well

You guessed wrong. As a matter of fact, I was an engineer at a manufacturing plant for 25 years.

:):p:)

I did happen to actually laugh out loud!!

such great discussion on additives. I wonder where these people are purchasing fuel with all this water problem?? Have I just lucked out and never encountered it?
 

MichaelB

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SE Wisconsin
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2014 Passat SE DSG
:):p:)

I did happen to actually laugh out loud!!

such great discussion on additives. I wonder where these people are purchasing fuel with all this water problem?? Have I just lucked out and never encountered it?
QUOTE=cp;5061748]
That's right; the factory doesn't recommend anything. I find it difficult to believe that the 'water in the fuel' problem has completely escaped the attention of VW AG's engineering department. [/QUOTE]

Laugh all you want but this is the statement that led to my engineering bash. Yes I worked in engineering as I said engineering is a very very vague term. I'm sure VW AG's engineering department created the whole emission cheat too.:rolleyes: Who knows if the fuel you have bought in the past might have had a water issue and it just hasn't raised its ugly head yet.
 
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cp

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usa
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2006 TDI Beetle
Trouble in River City!

It isn't just VW's engineers who have "missed it." I don't know of ANY manufacturer of diesel engines which recommends year-round use of additives.

Are they all in a Vast Diesel Fuel Conspiracy whose goal is to wreak havoc among the owners of diesel cars?

Why is it that some people will not accept the advice of the people who made their car in the first place but are more than willing to accept what they read on the side of a can or bottle of what is essentially a mixture of paint thinner, lighter fluid and mostly kerosene?

The answer lies in one word--ignorance. Ignorance is not a pejorative word; it simply means that one doesn't have the necessary information to understand a particular 'problem' and has to choose whether to educate himself or take the advice of others whom he trusts to know more about the subject than he does.

This presents an opportunity for third party hucksters. First, the huckster must create (or magnify the effects of) a worrisome problem, then offer a 'peace of mind' solution to that problem which he suggests can be avoided by simply using a minimal-cost product that the average schmuck is unaware of. He thus creates a (false) feeling of superiority in the user of his product who now has peace of mind, thinking that he's a step above the average user, averting catastrophe and protecting his investment with an insurance policy of sorts. And the huckster pockets some easy money for himself in the process.

If this sounds familiar, it ought to--it's the basis for Meredith Willson's play, The Music Man.

Oh yeah we got trouble, right here in River City, with a capital T, which rhymes with P, and that stands for Pool!

Nobody does it better than Robert Preston.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qam1fbQmA_s
 

ZippyNH

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Southern NH
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2015 JETTA TDI SE
Since temperature plays a HUGE role in liquid water not being absorbed by the fuel, your fuel must really be SATURATED to need the protection of the power service white in the summer....
The amount of water that a 60° temperature fuel can keep suspended before it settles out vs 25° fuel is amazing...don't have the stats at hand, but typically you would only see an issue with a drop in temperature.... This would cause the water in SATURATED fuel to settle out, and get pumped through the system as liquid drops...yes, very bad for fuel stlystem.
Do I wish out filters had clear cases like on many trucks, so we cold monitor the filters, yes, and do I wish we had a drain on the bottom to drain the water SATURATED fuel out of the filter like on a truck after it sits a few days, yes....but we don't... So we just have to use regular filter changes, and proper additives to stay safe.
 

dbias

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Huntington WV
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Since diesel, when warm, holds a lot more water just like air when you have a large temp drop the water will come out of the fuel or air. I think the return of warmed diesel from the HPFP to the tank would help to pick up any excess water back into the fuel. Power service is what I use personally in my tdi and past trucks.
 

MichaelB

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Location
SE Wisconsin
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2014 Passat SE DSG
The answer lies in one word--ignorance. Ignorance is not a pejorative word; it simply means that one doesn't have the necessary information to understand a particular 'problem' and has to choose whether to educate himself or take the advice of others whom he trusts to know more about the subject than he does.

If this sounds familiar, it ought to--it's the basis for Meredith Willson's play, The Music Man.

Oh yeah we got trouble, right here in River City, with a capital T, which rhymes with P, and that stands for Pool!

Nobody does it better than Robert Preston.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qam1fbQmA_s
Well I guess your the only one that has posted here that is not ignorant Mr well informed smart guy. Let's leave Robert Preston out of it eh.
 

tdiatlast

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I think cp's post is right on. PTBarnum has it right, too. "There's a sucker born every minute."
 

Dannyboy

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May 25, 2013
Location
Mb
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2014
I went to Bamberg plant in Germany a few years ago on a field trip and on a tour of the factory and showed us the kind of testing bosch does. Trust me it's about as harsh as any piece of equipment can go through. They get all sort of tests like salt water, water in fuel, extreme operating conditions and excessive vibration tests. They test them to destruction then take them apart. I assure most people have their doubts about bosch but from what I've seen them out these systems through some crazy abuse.

When one of the guys asked about additives he said for liability purposes they don't recommend additives but off the record he said even he uses additives once in a while
 

MichaelB

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Aug 11, 2009
Location
SE Wisconsin
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2014 Passat SE DSG
I think cp's post is right on. PTBarnum has it right, too. "There's a sucker born every minute."
With that PT Barnum comment and following many many other threads here (not just fuel adds) I almost think those suckers your referring to buy VW's. Take it any way you want.:rolleyes:
 
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cp

Veteran Member
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Jan 25, 2001
Location
usa
TDI
2006 TDI Beetle
Well I guess your the only one that has posted here that is not ignorant Mr well informed smart guy. Let's leave Robert Preston out of it eh.
No need to get testy.

If you wish to remain ignorant, by all means, do so. But you have no evidence that additives work and can't possibly have any such evidence. Using additives and not having any problems does not mean they work because you did not, and cannot, simultaneously test the same piece of equipment under the exact same conditions except without using additives to see if it would fail without them.

Don't forget to sign your kid up for the Boys Band while you're at it and avoid the troubles of pool. ;)
 

ZippyNH

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2015 JETTA TDI SE
No need to get testy.

If you wish to remain ignorant, by all means, do so. But you have no evidence that additives work and can't possibly have any such evidence. Using additives and not having any problems does not mean they work because you did not, and cannot, simultaneously test the same piece of equipment under the exact same conditions except without using additives to see if it would fail without them.

Don't forget to sign your kid up for the Boys Band while you're at it and avoid the troubles of pool. ;)
With gasoline engines, I'm inclined to say additives are junk....
But diesel trucks, running 200,000+ miles a year in team operations or 100,000+ in single driver operations have proven that most diesel fuel additives are at worst break even, and often a money saver...issues like fuel pump wear are not new on unique to VW motors....
The fact most improve the engines operation in daily driving and often prevent fuel gelling is a big gain
...get stuck once with gelled fuel, and you will never want to deal with it again....the thought of paying $1 more or even ¢50 more per fillup in most cases if you buy in bulk is IMO a good deal...a tiny $ up front to prevent a tow and unplanned stop...
Nobody makes anybody use it...if you want too great, let's make threads on what we use...
If you don't... Find. Don't get pissy over it. We all make choices based on our situations and our experiences. If additives made sense in ALL cases, it would be preblended all the time...not just to a minimum spec IF THE RETAILER is doing their job...but many don't... And often better than minimum spec gets gains....
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
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Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
With gasoline engines, I'm inclined to say additives are junk....
Since getting my GTI a year ago, I've spent ... many hours ... researching gas additives. Top Tier was made for a reason.
 

turbovan+tdi

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I'll leave it.

That's right; the factory doesn't recommend anything. I find it difficult to believe that the 'water in the fuel' problem has completely escaped the attention of VW AG's engineering department. In fact, I'm quite sure the problem of water in the fuel has been thoroughly examined by VW engineers and their findings are accurately reflected in the instructions in the owners manual--buy good fuel and let it go at that.

If a 2014 fell victim to ruined injectors by foregoing the use of snake oil in the fuel, my 2006 should have bit the dust years ago.
LOL, spoken like a true Engineer. Guess that's why cars NEVER break down or have issues no one thought of, you genius Engineers you. :p
 

cp

Veteran Member
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Jan 25, 2001
Location
usa
TDI
2006 TDI Beetle
LOL, spoken like a true.....what? Clerk? Claims adjuster? Not mechanically inclined insurance salesman?

Wonder why you don't put your vast knowledge and intelligence to work and YOU build a car that won't break down?
 
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cp

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Jan 25, 2001
Location
usa
TDI
2006 TDI Beetle
Not a chance. It would have to have something added to it.
 

Jimmy Coconuts

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Henderson NV
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LOL, spoken like a true.....what? Clerk? Claims adjuster? Not mechanically inclined insurance salesman?

Wonder why you don't put your vast knowledge and intelligence to work and YOU build a car that won't break down?
I believe he's a used car salesman...:D
 

turbovan+tdi

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Abbotsford, BC.
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2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
LOL, spoken like a true.....what? Clerk? Claims adjuster? Not mechanically inclined insurance salesman?

Wonder why you don't put your vast knowledge and intelligence to work and YOU build a car that won't break down?

LOL. If your such a good engineer, how come all this crap keeps popping up? Like flat cams, IC icing, water killing injectors, crappy fuel filters, exploding HPFP that don't only takes the pump out but the WHOLE fuel system-brilliant design. Do you want to take credit for that? Oh right, it was properly engineered, can't possibly happen. :p


I guarantee some of us "grease monkeys" could do a better job on quite a few things. :D
 

cp

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Location
usa
TDI
2006 TDI Beetle
Sure you can... Why don't you send your 'grease monkey' resume to VW AG or any of the car companies and let them put your vast talent to work?

I'm sure they're just dying to have a grease monkey show them the 'right' way to design diesel engines. They'll give you a blank sheet of paper to start with so you don't make any of the past mistakes...

Let us know when the Grease Monkey TDI hits the road.
 

MichaelB

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Aug 11, 2009
Location
SE Wisconsin
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2014 Passat SE DSG
Sure you can... Why don't you send your 'grease monkey' resume to VW AG or any of the car companies and let them put your vast talent to work?

I'm sure they're just dying to have a grease monkey show them the 'right' way to design diesel engines. They'll give you a blank sheet of paper to start with so you don't make any of the past mistakes...

Let us know when the Grease Monkey TDI hits the road.
Wow!!!!!!!!!!!and I got banned for a week after my comments on this forum.
 

OlyTDI

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Location
Olympia, WA
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'04 Golf
I use to run B100 but my supply became unreliable. Then I went to commercial B20 and that dried-up. Now I cannot even find B5 reliably, in fact, the Shell and Chevron diesel stations around me have all been replaced by Mobil and 76. I get fuel at my supermarket that has brand new tanks and high turnover. But it's straight ULSD.

I've decided to start using the Opti-lube XL Extreme additive for lubricity. After two tanks at regular dosing, I cannot say I notice anything in terms of quietness, starting, smoothness, or MPGs. I did just lift the vehicle and took a pretty good hit on MPGs as a result. Since lifting, and adding the Opti-lube, I'm averaging 43 MPG. A drastic reduction from the 46 - 48 I'm used to in my PD. But...I'm not light on the peddle either!
 

AlcoC420

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Southeast U.S.
TDI
.
Not sure where to post this and it may have been mentioned already, but my local Advance Auto Parts now stocks 16 Oz. bottles of Stanadyne Lubricity Formula at $7.99 Ea. This greatly pleases me, as buying lubricity additives on line often involves paying shipping that exceeds the cost of the product.
 

Terrific-In-Tahoma

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East-of-Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Not sure where to post this and it may have been mentioned already, but my local Advance Auto Parts now stocks 16 Oz. bottles of Stanadyne Lubricity Formula at $7.99 Ea. This greatly pleases me, as buying lubricity additives on line often involves paying shipping that exceeds the cost of the product.
Not, only shipping, then for us north of the longest undefended border in the world, (Canadians, Alaskans and Green landers), there is the conversion to the local currency, and import levies (Tax / Duties).

There are three things that the additive(s) are used to older model Engines.

A) A Sulfur replacement that does the same function the 500ppm sulfur had in the pre-2006 diesel fuel. This can be in the form of a B20 or B5 Blend, or an additive such as Standyne.

B) Cetane improver that adds a combustion enhance to the blend of the fuel, such as 2-EHN, as the active component. This is a major component of products such as LubroMoly Super Diesel additive, or pre-blended by the Diesel fuel supplier such as Shell Canada and their 'premium' brand of diesel called 'V-Power', that along with the 2-EHN adds some other components to help with water solubility, and anti-gumming agents.

C) Anti-Gelling additive so that when the ambient temperature, falls below the (pre-additive) gelling point of the Diesel Fuel, the fuel, because there is the extreme temperature variations from daytime to nightime, can cause the fuel to 'Gelatinize" in the similar way that the additive in Jello brand Gelatin does the same thing to boiling water. The Anti-Gel Properties of products such as Standyne, and Power Service are designed to combat that.

There are Limits to this chemistry however, and probably the Pilots in the High Arctic, or High Ant-Arctic regions would know about JET-A, and the temperatures that it can be stored under. (JET-A) is similar to D2, yes I know there are differences.

So, as long as you understand what each additive is for, and its major compound, then you can make an intelligent choice as to what is needed for your own circumstance.

I.E. High Altitude traveling and perhaps overnight temperatures in the 30s(F), with a tank of fuel that was purchased in Las Vegas, would not be harmed if you were in Salt Lake City the next day, by having an additive for anti-gelling added to your tankful.

While I appreciate, what some mention here about trying to get it right 100% of the time, I also understand that it may not be possible to achieve certain goals at the factory level, and for that reason, the Owners Manual may omit the details, since it was printed, and new chemestry components may crop up that the factory was unaware of when the machinery was built.

(Some Models of Honda engines had problems with oil sludging in the heads and galleries of the oil ports-resoved by using a better oil).

Unfortunately, the experience at the dealership level should be better than it is across the whole Auto Service sector, some makes and models are better than others. It also is a regional thing, since it is very difficult to find, and retain, good mechanicaly competent people when the competition for such talent is high.

Unfortunately, the bean counter types at the district offices, do not take into account the 'soft' elements that are added to a service appointment. The N.American 'Dealership' model is not based on quality, but profit, and that trumps all other considerations.

For those of us who fill up in Litres, the Standyne in 461 ml (16 oz) bottles, for the 'Performance' level product, according to the MSDS, contains 20-30% of 2-EHN.

Another product, "Super Diesel Additive", from LiquiMoly contains 10-30% 2-EHN.

So, Both products are similar, and both contain the 'secret sauce' component, (2-Ethylhexyl nitrate).

And according to the original source documents, a dosing rate of up to 4000 ppm (Parts-per-million) of 2-EHN, improves the cetane value significantly.

So, some , may call it snake oil, others more descriptive terms, as long as you know what is in the additive, and WHY it is added, then you have the basis to make a good decision, and worry less ,and drive happy.

-Richard
 
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