Frostheater performance. What to expect

[relumalutan]

Got my hands on a used Frostheater and installed on my 06 Jetta TDI DSG ( the Frostheater was previously installed on the same year and model). Last night it got down to 8 degrees Fahrenheit so I have plugged the heater on a timer. I leave the house at 7 AM, the timer was set-up to turn the heater for 2 hours, between 5 AM-7 AM. Got in the car, turned the engine on, the coolant temperature gauge didn't move at all. I have the POLAR FIS installed, I switch the display to it, it read coolant temperature 86. I was thinking to myself, better than nothing. Drove the car for about 5 miles in light traffic until the coolant needle on the gauge began to move and got some heat in the cabin (Aux. electric heating works, verified with VCDS).
The car sits overnight in front of the garage, and I have a 25 FT long extension cable (16 gauge) to reach the Frostheater plug. Is the length of the cable a concern for the performance of the Frostheater, or maybe I have set my expectations too high?
I'll plug it tonight for 3 hours to see if that makes any difference. From the reviews of other users I understand that plugging it for two hours is enough and they have heat soon after turning on the engine. The thermostat is OK.

 

[oilhammer]

It is only 1500 watts, it isn't like it will get the coolant anywhere near operating temps, even if it was only 50 F out.

What it DID do, is got it a lot closer than the 8 F it would have started at.

Are all your lower shields and engine covers intact? That helps hold in the heat while it is working.

 

[relumalutan]

Brian, that's what I have said too: 86 in 8 degree weather is not bad. My car has the OEM engine covers, belly pan, on top of it I have a Dieselgeek panzer plate. Behind the upper grille I have mounted a piece of reflective insulation, completely blocking the airflow. On top of that I have completely blocked the upper grille vents with pipe insulation. On the bottom grille I have installed a bra.
The set-up used to be bulletproof in the past when I've used to keep the car in the garage, and the EGR valve and EGR cooler were in place. I used to get warm air within a mile of driving. Now that I have removed them and the car sits outside, the engine takes much, much longer to reach operating temperature. And when it does, I am having a hard time getting the cabin warm. For example: I was driving this morning on the freeway for 45 minutes, the MFD was indicating coolant temperature 183, while the digital thermometer I have installed in the car never went over 51, regardless of the blower speed setting. If I use the highest setting, the temperature actually goes down in the car.
I am planning on installing an auxiliary electric heater, power it by a deep cycle small battery in the trunk (Charge the small battery with a battery charger plugged to the outlet in the trunk, or just run wires from the main battery and use a battery isolator).

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HB39GB9/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Maybe I'll also install a Webasto to speed up the coolant heating in the morning.

It is only 1500 watts, it isn't like it will get the coolant anywhere near operating temps, even if it was only 50 F out.
What it DID do, is got it a lot closer than the 8 F it would have started at.
Are all your lower shields and engine covers intact? That helps hold in the heat while it is working.

 

[DerekG]

It was 9F last night and I had a timer turn it on for 5-6 hours over night and it was 198F (Scanguage II) on start up and dropped to 160F after the engine was running for 30-40 seconds and then started to climb back up on my way to school. This is on a MKVI and I'm using a similar extension cord.

I have heat in <30 sec and engine temp is ~180ish by the time I finish my ~6mi commute in those temps. I usually block my lower grille, but I haven't this winter.

 

[[486]]

I have a generic 850W tank heater plumbed in the oil cooler hoses, same as all the genericized zerostart heater installs so common on here

with the pistons cut for lower compression it starts extremely hard below 10F, below 0F it needs ether
with the heater plugged in a half hour before leaving? pops right over with no glowplugs at all

It does however take 5 miles of freeway driving before I get any heat from the vents.
I've thought of getting a pump to go with the heater, as it doesn't circulate very well with only 6" of height difference between the water pump inlet pipe and the water outlet on the cylinder head. With some forced flow it might get the motor a bit hotter rather than just getting the heater's tank up to 200 or so and ever so slowly thermosiphon-burbling the coolant throughout the loop.

 

[relumalutan]

It was 9F last night and I had a timer turn it on for 5-6 hours over night and it was 198F (Scanguage II) on start up and dropped to 160F after the engine was running for 30-40 seconds and then started to climb back up on my way to school. This is on a MKVI and I'm using a similar extension cord.

I have heat in <30 sec and engine temp is ~180ish by the time I finish my ~6mi commute in those temps. I usually block my lower grille, but I haven't this winter.

That's what I was hoping to get too, based on other forum members reviews. This morning I had it plugged for 4.5 hours, 8F outside. On start-up the coolant temperature was 86, by the time I backed out of my driveway it dropped to 75. Of course it went up after that.
My problem is that with EGR valve and EGR cooler removed, I am having a hard time heating the car. I am driving on freeway, the coolant temperature is at a steady 183, but after 50 minutes of driving I barely get the cabin temperature up to 50F.
That used to not be a problem when the car was stock. I have the upper grille completely blocked, the lower grille was blocked 70%, last night I have blocked it 90%. No improvement.
Is there any way that we can test the Frost heater with a multi-meter? If it help, I'm running it out of a 120V~/15A/60Hz/1800W timer.

 

[DerekG]

That's strange. Mine was 87F after 1.5 hours when ambient temp was mid-20s. Seems like the frostheater isn't getting hot enough. I have egr deleted/disabled as well.

Maybe the coolant flow due to the heater is different in my '13 vs your '06? Is the heater mounted low or high?

 

[relumalutan]

The frostheater is installed I would say low (connected to the oil cooler hoses). Mine gets to 87F after one hour and there it stays, even if I have it connected for 4 hours.

 

[Pat Dolan]

It is only 1500 watts, it isn't like it will get the coolant anywhere near operating temps, even if it was only 50 F out.
What it DID do, is got it a lot closer than the 8 F it would have started at.
Are all your lower shields and engine covers intact? That helps hold in the heat while it is working.

I don't know what Frost installs, but I would be very surprised if it is 1500W. I use that for my Dectroit Series 60!! I thought Frost used 850 (about what most block heaters do), but I could be very wrong. I have a Zerostart in wife's MkIV at 1,100 or 1,200 watts, and in an hour or so, I have temp gauge in middle and summer-like start (also have battery heating pad).

To the OP: find someone with a clamp-on type of ammeter (most electricians will have) and see what amperage is actually in the circuit. A fully loaded 15A breaker will run an 1800 Watt load @ 120V, and at that high a loading, a long 16 Ga. cord is a bit light for the task. If you have a 1200W heater, you will see 10 amps.

 

[DerekG]

The frostheater is installed I would say low (connected to the oil cooler hoses). Mine gets to 87F after one hour and there it stays, even if I have it connected for 4 hours.

hmm. Maybe try a heavier gauge extension cord or at least a shorter one and see if that helps? If not the the problem may be the heater itself. How "used" was it?

 

[DerekG]

I don't know what Frost installs, but I would be very surprised if it is 1500W. I use that for my Dectroit Series 60!! I thought Frost used 850 (about what most block heaters do), but I could be very wrong. I have a Zerostart in wife's MkIV at 1,100 or 1,200 watts, and in an hour or so, I have temp gauge in middle and summer-like start (also have battery heating pad).
To the OP: find someone with a clamp-on type of ammeter (most electricians will have) and see what amperage is actually in the circuit. A fully loaded 15A breaker will run an 1800 Watt load @ 120V, and at that high a loading, a long 16 Ga. cord is a bit light for the task. If you have a 1200W heater, you will see 10 amps.

According to their website it's 1000W. It's a Zerostart heater that they package with custom hoses to fit different applications.

 

[oilhammer]

Sorry, yes is the 1000W version. There is a 1500W version, too, which is what I had installed in a car years ago (not a TDI).

 

[Pat Dolan]

Even 1000 Watts is far more than enough to get a 1.9/2.0 litre engine comfortably startable in 2 hours at -40.

 

[sloinker]

I will plug mine in at work from full temperature 27 mile commute to 12 hours at below 0F temperatures. It starts easily and indicates about 170-180 degrees for about 10 seconds after starting and it falls all the way to the bottom of the gauge. I am initially getting some warm air from the vents and continue to get it at ever increasing temperatures until it reaches full operating temps in about 5 miles.

 

[Intech]

Got my hands on a used Frostheater and installed on my 06 Jetta TDI DSG ( the Frostheater was previously installed on the same year and model). Last night it got down to 8 degrees Fahrenheit so I have plugged the heater on a timer. I leave the house at 7 AM, the timer was set-up to turn the heater for 2 hours, between 5 AM-7 AM. Got in the car, turned the engine on, the coolant temperature gauge didn't move at all. I have the POLAR FIS installed, I switch the display to it, it read coolant temperature 86. I was thinking to myself, better than nothing. Drove the car for about 5 miles in light traffic until the coolant needle on the gauge began to move and got some heat in the cabin (Aux. electric heating works, verified with VCDS).
The car sits overnight in front of the garage, and I have a 25 FT long extension cable (16 gauge) to reach the Frostheater plug. Is the length of the cable a concern for the performance of the Frostheater, or maybe I have set my expectations too high?
I'll plug it tonight for 3 hours to see if that makes any difference. From the reviews of other users I understand that plugging it for two hours is enough and they have heat soon after turning on the engine. The thermostat is OK.

My Frostheaters, in both my ALH's, work like a charm. However, as Brian said, they are 1500 Watt heaters, and I use a 10 Ft, 12 gauge fine stranded copper core extension cord, and I am pulling 6 Amps. With that, voltage drop is probably insignificant. I, personally, would not use a cord like what you are using. Just my thoughts.

 

[ToddA1]

Like others mentioned, I don’t believe FH used 1500w heaters. If you’re use pulling 6A, I’m guessing it’s 750w.

I hobbled my kit together and used a 1500w Zerostart (I believe NLA) and it took about 2 hours to get my car to around 190°. Mine was rated at 12.5A.

Honestly, I don’t plug it in, anymore. Easier to use a remote starter...

-Todd

 

[[486]]

fine stranded copper

skin depth at 60hz in copper is 8.5mm
which is to say, you're wasting your breath/thought/money unless you are somewhere that mains frequency is in the high kHz range

 

[SilverGhost]

I had a Frostheater on my MkIV BEW Golf. Even with -40F and 2 extension cords I would come down and find a defrosted section of the windshield and temperature gauge starts out at 190F. Of course it dropped almost to cold line soon as the engine ran for 30 to 90 seconds, but I had heat from start up. At those temps I was plugging in about midnight or 1am and leaving for work by 7am.

Jason

 

[Intech]

skin depth at 60hz in copper is 8.5mm
which is to say, you're wasting your breath/thought/money unless you are somewhere that mains frequency is in the high kHz range

I have several high capacity (current wise) extension cords, and jumper cables with 100 Amp clips, that I made for myself from excess welding cables at a Sub Station construction site, where I was a Field engineer. I have never had an ounce of problems with either. Wasting my breath? Maybe. Thoughts? NBD, they're free. Money? Didn't cost me a penny, and the labor was free. As for the frequency on the mains, that might have been an occasional problem, because my generator would start when there was no service interruption, and I figured it was either that or low voltage.

 

[Vince Waldon]

Just my opinion, but at these frequencies "skin effect" is a red herring and has naught to do with the wire's ability to carry current without overheating. Skin effect is an RF effect, where the physical dimentions of the conductor approach the signal's wavelength. Not a factor with a 60 Hz signal and 14 gauge cross-section.

Rather, this is more about the cross-section itself, where solid core wire has less air space in cross-section and thus slightly more copper, so slightly less resistance and therefore slightly less voltage drop / heat. IIRC it's something like 3% (can't find a good wire table on my phone) derating for stranded vs solid.

Me personally? I am a belt and suspenders guy... so when I buy 100 ft extension cords I go up a gauge (12) if I want it to safely carry the full 15 amps the 14 gauge solid house wiring is delivering to the outlet in the first place. A microwave in the far corner of the shop, for example.

A 750W Frostheater is about half the outlet's capacity...I might risk 14 gauge.

Sent from my Moto X Play using Tapatalk

 

[Intech]

Just my opinion, but at these frequencies "skin effect" is a red herring and has naught to do with the wire's ability to carry current without overheating. Skin effect is an RF effect, where the physical dimentions of the conductor approach the signal's wavelength. Not a factor with a 60 Hz signal and 14 gauge cross-section.

Rather, this is more about the cross-section itself, where solid core wire has less air space in cross-section and thus slightly more copper, so slightly less resistance and therefore slightly less voltage drop / heat. IIRC it's something like 3% (can't find a good wire table on my phone) derating for stranded vs solid.

Me personally? I am a belt and suspenders guy... so when I buy 100 ft extension cords I go up a gauge (12) if I want it to safely carry the full 15 amps the 14 gauge solid house wiring is delivering to the outlet in the first place. A microwave in the far corner of the shop, for example.

A 750W Frostheater is about half the outlet's capacity...I might risk 14 gauge.

Sent from my Moto X Play using Tapatalk

Agreed!

 

[Wilkins]

The VW installed heater (CDN model standard equipment) brought the coolant temp in my MK6 to about 120 F in a couple of hours with the garage at about 10 F. Coolant temperature then dipped to 70 ish F after starting the engine before climbing again. Generally think I get 140F within a few blocks and never have I worried about being able to defrost the windshield.

Even starting from near zero F coolant I get 140 F in about 3 miles at 40 mph, but then it is a fixed CR and is working hard to heat the exhaust components. I often see the trip fuel economy show in the low 20s 10 miles after a cold cold start. Much more comfortable than the BEW which might take 10 minutes to start defrosting the windshield if not plugged in.

Incidentally the temperature gauge on the Mk 6 starts moving at 50 C and is straight up at 70 C. About 120 and 160 F.