Front Wheel Bearing Thoughts and Autopsy (long, but with pix!)

[Matthew13]

(This thread is an offshoot of my "What did you do to your A3/B4 today" posts.)

TL;DR - I wreck bearing #2, but not totally, and have questions.

The background: '97 Passat Sedan, ~348K miles, original left front wheel bearing making noise. I'm using one of those long-bolt-through-everything removal and install kits, which I used to successfully replace the right front bearing a year ago and my wife's Honda Pilot front wheel bearing a few months ago. Anyway, I replace the old bearing with bearing #1, but don't correctly support the inner race when installing the hub, leading to the "inner" inner race being pulled in and busting the seal. Boo. Order kit #2.

For clarity: Here, the "inner" inner race is the one facing in towards the engine; the "outer" inner race is the one facing out towards the wheel.

Today: Kit #2 received, bearing installed just fine. I'm quadruple checking everything at this point so I don't have to do this again and I can get Lili back on the road. Get the long bolt and plates set up to install the hub, making sure the "inner" inner race is supported. Start installing the hub. Barely one or two cranks, just to get it started. Fingers crossed. Release tension to check everything again. Aaaaaand...
Bam! Hub falls off attached to "outer" inner bearing race. Are. You. Effing. Kidding. Me?

Pull it all out, order bearing #3, and pray it will be in tomorrow like they say it will. Seriously question my mechanic-ing skills and life choices.

Now the fun begins. Through my tears, I get the inner race off the hub. No damage to the race and seal, and nothing looks wrong with the exposed inside of the bearing. Playing with the pieces, the inner race just snaps back into the bearing and everything works just fine.

Bearing #2, minus inner race:

A better picture of the innards. Note the "teeth" at 12 and 1 o'clock - these go all the way around and grip the race to hold it in:

A picture of bearing #2's race - the groove at the bottom is what I think snaps into the race teeth in the previous picture:

For reference, here's the original bearing's innards (with 348K miles). The teeth have been broken off, probably when I pulled the hub. Both old and new versions have 15 ball bearings.

I'll install the new bearing (#3), but really wonder if #2 would work. If you ever experience a bearing race separation prior to any serious wear, could you just regrease everything, snap the inner races back in, and use it? Or am I missing some bearing secret where any breach of the inner races instantly kills the bearing?

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[MukGyver]

Chinese bearing?

 

[Matthew13]

Yeppers. First bearing is original, so German. #1 and #2 replacements are Chinese. #3 is an OEM "FAG" bearing.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

If you ever experience a bearing race separation prior to any serious wear, could you just regrease everything, snap the inner races back in, and use it?

Snap it together and save it for the post-apocalypse.

 

[MukGyver]

you should be better off with the FAG bearing. just do it the same being aware of where you are applying pressure on the install. there's almost zero quality control on chinese parts and the materials are always questionable at best.

 

[ToddA1]

Honestly, I’d have reinstalled the inner race on bearing #1. Being that you have a FAG bearing coming in, use it.

-Todd

 

[CasaEd]

For me I always use a press, no problems, if you push the inner part of the bearing out forget trying to snap it back in again, you can never get the seal back in. When you are re-fitting the flange how are you preventing the inner race being pushed out ?

 

[Matthew13]

Todd and Mukgyver…agree with use of FAG bearing since it’s coming in.

TurboDieselDyke…That said, I’m going to hang on to #2 and will use it if I manage to Bork this one.

CasaEd…I’m using the bearing remover and installer kit, which I’ve used before, so I know it works. Each of the pushing/pulling plates has a flat side and a side with raised portions (it’s a universal kit, so lots of options). Looking at the original bearing and the Chinese one, the original bearing has a groove for the seal to ride in, but the Chinese one doesn’t. This makes me think the “snap it back together” plan might work in a pinch on the Chinese bearings, but probably not on an OEM one.

 

[CasaEd]

I've never destroyed 1 bearing by using the hydraulic press, and to be honest I've never seen the bearing remover & installer kit you mention, and I'd still put it in the press, but each to their own,. Also I'd still be worried that the seal would let the grease out it doesn't go back in correctly, and as you can see in your picture, there is precious little of it to begin with.

 

[Matthew13]

CasaEd - gotcha, but it's what I've got. It's worked before, so no reason why it shouldn't work this time, except for my stupidity. I also like that I don't have to take the knuckle off the car. Hell, I don't have a garage...I gotta do this in the sun in my driveway. As you say: to each their own.

UPDATE: New FAG bearing in. Made in Mexico, dontchaknow. It has a chamfered edge unlike the Chinese bearings, so no installation issues whatsoever. Snap ring and hub went in fine. Everything back together, no issues. Time for a test drive. I can't wait!

wuhwuhwuhWUHWUHWUHWUHWUH. And now I can feel something at speed. Something thumping. It's drivetrain related, not engine related. Awesome.

At home, I climb under for a look-see. Nothing obvious, but the driver's axle moves back and forth quite a bit (left-right movement). The passenger axle is tight - no movement whatsoever. Maybe something's wrong in the driver's axle? More work to do!

The "fun" continues. Thanks for reading...

 

[Steve Addy]

When I had to do bearings I sprung for the press kit from HF and it was worth it. When you're pressing in the bearing you make sure that pressure is applied to the outer ring, when you press in the hub support must be on the inner race.

The nice thing about the press kit is that it can be done on the car by simply pulling the carrier off the ball joint and extracting the CV joint.

Perhaps your hub is worn and requires replacement? I've run into a couple over the years that were unusable.

The last FAG bearing I got was made in Brazil although the box (it was a kit) said it was made in Mexico. The packet with the extras were German but the bearing said Brazil and the box marked Mexico...crazy stuff.

Steve

 

[Matthew13]

Ok, how do I diagnose this so I stop throwing parts at it?

Symptoms:
- WUHWUHWUHWUH at all speeds with wheel straight ahead or turning left. It *sounds* like it's coming from the left which is why I started there, but I know that may be misleading.
- Thumping through steering wheel.
- Noise goes away when I turn the wheel right.

Hardware state:
- Right front bearing was replaced a year or so ago. But I'll check it again (jack up car, try to move wheel, hands at 12 & 6 and 3 & 9).
- Passenger axle does not move left<--> right. Driver axle moves left<-->right a good bit. All CV boots are good and newer.

Any suggestions or thoughts, Team TDIclub?

Thanks!

 

[Steve Addy]

If it were me I would pull the spindles off the ball joints on both sides, extract the outer cvs and check for slop or any other weird anomaly. Then I'd check both bearings to make sure that circlips are there, no unusual play exists. Since you're in there check ball joints for stiffness.

It sounds to me like you have a driver CV going out, based on the axle movement. I would pull that axle and inspect it carefully, inner and outer CV joints etc. If I had to bet I'd be inclined to think the outer was the likely culprit, despite the boot being good. I have seen reman axles with almost no grease in them before. I personally like to repack my own, and prefer factory joints to others when possible.

Hope you find the problem, and that new joint that had the inner race come off, it's likely still good if you can get it put back together.

Steve

 

[Matthew13]

Steve - thanks for the help. I will definitely look into other potential trouble spots. I have recently replaced both LBJs, but the boot on the left one is split, I think. Simple enough to replace, but shouldn't be making all the racket, should it?

I *hope* it's as simple as an axle/CV. I do repack the inner CV joints with good grease, but am unable to get to the outer "sealed" CV joint. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Steve Addy]

Steve - thanks for the help. I will definitely look into other potential trouble spots. I have recently replaced both LBJs, but the boot on the left one is split, I think. Simple enough to replace, but shouldn't be making all the racket, should it?

I *hope* it's as simple as an axle/CV. I do repack the inner CV joints with good grease, but am unable to get to the outer "sealed" CV joint. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Matthew

Matthew
You have to cut the band and strip the boot back off the CV. A replacement band can be found or in some cases a long zip tie can be used to resecure the boot over the outer CV.

At any rate you have a lot of axle movement on that side and the reason for that needs to be found and fixed. Typically axles don't move all that much laterally unless there's a lot of bad stuff going on inside the outer cup. The inner cup tends to not get into the same situation because there's far less movement but if the outer is going bad it could put unusual tension on the inner and ruin that also.

BJ with a split boot won't be a problem for a while, but what I was saying was you can remove the axle by pulling the spindle off the BJ and moving it away from the car, the outer CV should withdraw from the spindle and hub without any problem although some say a puller might be required.

As I said, I would bet your sound and trouble is going to be found inside the CV, especially since you've indicated that you have a bunch of lateral movement in that axle, which there shouldn't be.

Good luck

Steve

 

[Matthew13]

Ah - destructive improvements - gotcha! ;^). Given the circumstances, I'll look for a good zip tie. I hope it's the outer CV and we can be running again.

To free the knuckle, I usually undo the 3 bolts holding the LBJ to the arm. I've seen folks refer to marking the alignment of those bolts so they can put them back in the same way, but there's no adjustments available on mine...just 3 holes and nothing to shift or change.

Thanks!

 

[burn_your_money]

The grease in the CVs has lead (iirc) so make sure to wear gloves when dealing with it.

You can also test for a bad bearing by jacking the wheel off the ground, holding the coil spring and spinning the tire. A bad bearing will make the spring vibrate. I'm not sure if a bad CV would also cause vibrations.

I own one of those wheel bearing press kits as well. They do work but I just use the pieces in the press. I find it easier.

Fun fact, since you mentioned your wife's Pilot. My Odyssey has the tone ring built into the wheel bearing which means you must install it with the correct side in otherwise you will get an ABS fault. The bearing wasn't labeled either, I had to use a small screwdriver to feel the magnets inside the seal.

 

[Steve Addy]

Ah - destructive improvements - gotcha! ;^). Given the circumstances, I'll look for a good zip tie. I hope it's the outer CV and we can be running again.

To free the knuckle, I usually undo the 3 bolts holding the LBJ to the arm. I've seen folks refer to marking the alignment of those bolts so they can put them back in the same way, but there's no adjustments available on mine...just 3 holes and nothing to shift or change.

Thanks!

Yes, you can free the bearing housing that way, but you also lose your alignment if you do. It preserves alignment to pull the spindle off the ball joint and that way that joint never gets moved.

You might be able to purchase a replacement CV boot band clamp but there's no guarantee that you can find one at parts stores. Some places stock that sort of thing in the "help" parts section, other places don't have that stuff. I've been able to use good sized zip ties (sometimes two) to make the boot stay in place.

Good luck

Steve

 

[ToddA1]

I don’t think you need to disconnect anything to pull the drive shaft on either side. It definitely makes it easier, but I don’t think it’s necessary.

fwiw, when I do bearings, I remove the entire strut assembly with the steer knuckle and take it to the press. i remove the ball joint pinch bolt. No alignment needed, afterwards. I’ve been doing it this way, for decades.

-Todd

 

[03TDICommuter]

I remove the entire strut assembly with the steer knuckle and take it to the press.

What do you use to get the outer tie rod end loose from the knuckle? I've got a pickle fork but the opening isn't wide enough. Same with my 'tie rod end remover'. There's not enough of a gap to get my tools in there.

 

[Matthew13]

So I ended up needing a right front bearing. Did it today, minus a tone ring. No worries. And more importantly, no WUHWUHWUH.

I do want to understand the BJ/alignment piece. Usually I remove the 3 bolts (with the funny tri-nut plate) holding the BJ to the arm and swing the whole shebang out of the way to remove the axle/CV joint. There doesn’t appear to be any alignment needed upon reassembly; the three holes for the BJ are only holes - not slots or anything moveable. That tells my small brain that it only goes back one way. The steering tie rod end doesn’t move, so I see that as holding the alignment. But I’m not an aligner-er.

On my repair, I tried doing as some of you have suggested - removing the pinch bolt and popping the BJ off the spindle, and not (I’m guessing) removing the 3 bolts. I couldn’t get it to budge without removing those 3 bolts, so I reverted to my method And left the pinch bolt/BJ alone.

Can someone please help me understand the finer points of alignment as it relates to the B4 front end and BJ removal vs. my method of removing the 3 bolts? Why does one keep alignment while one messes with it? I really want to grok this, but I feel like I‘m missing something.

Thanks!

 

[Steve Addy]

So I ended up needing a right front bearing. Did it today, minus a tone ring. No worries. And more importantly, no WUHWUHWUH.

I do want to understand the BJ/alignment piece. Usually I remove the 3 bolts (with the funny tri-nut plate) holding the BJ to the arm and swing the whole shebang out of the way to remove the axle/CV joint. There doesn’t appear to be any alignment needed upon reassembly; the three holes for the BJ are only holes - not slots or anything moveable. That tells my small brain that it only goes back one way. The steering tie rod end doesn’t move, so I see that as holding the alignment. But I’m not an aligner-er.

On my repair, I tried doing as some of you have suggested - removing the pinch bolt and popping the BJ off the spindle, and not (I’m guessing) removing the 3 bolts. I couldn’t get it to budge without removing those 3 bolts, so I reverted to my method And left the pinch bolt/BJ alone.

Can someone please help me understand the finer points of alignment as it relates to the B4 front end and BJ removal vs. my method of removing the 3 bolts? Why does one keep alignment while one messes with it? I really want to grok this, but I feel like I‘m missing something.

Thanks!

Since the ball joint goes through the bearing carrier at one fixed point, removing the strut assembly / bearing carrier at that point means that it will go back to the exact same spot as before. The 3 bolts / plate for the ball joint at the control arm are moveable, meaning that this point of attachment can be changed by sliding the ball joint and plate in / out on the control arm.

Now if you mark where the ball joint sits in the control arm with a marker or some other thing like an awl, then I don't see a problem removing it at the control arm, but to be completely sure you don't disturb alignment the former method is preferred.

It's like this, the ball joint fixation at the carrier is not a point of adjustment for alignment whereas the three bolts are.

Good luck

Steve

 

[Matthew13]

Steve -

I appreciate your explanation and patience. I swear I'm trying to understand here...

The 3 bolts / plate for the ball joint at the control arm are moveable, meaning that this point of attachment can be changed by sliding the ball joint and plate in / out on the control arm

I admit that I have limited suspension/alignment experience, but I'm still not getting this. I don't know about other vehicles, but my 3 bolt plate doesn't appear to have any adjustability built in. In fact, it's a major PITA to reinstall the plate because the control arm holes and BJ plate have to be so perfectly aligned and there's a lot of pieces to wrangle when trying to reinstall. There aren't any other holes for the bolts to go in and the plate can only go in one way, at least how I can see it.

ball joint fixation at the carrier is not a point of adjustment for alignment whereas the three bolts are.

Let me ask this way. If I were to adjust the alignment using the three bolts, what would I do?

Thanks!

 

[P2B]

Steve -

I appreciate your explanation and patience. I swear I'm trying to understand here...


I admit that I have limited suspension/alignment experience, but I'm still not getting this. I don't know about other vehicles, but my 3 bolt plate doesn't appear to have any adjustability built in. In fact, it's a major PITA to reinstall the plate because the control arm holes and BJ plate have to be so perfectly aligned and there's a lot of pieces to wrangle when trying to reinstall. There aren't any other holes for the bolts to go in and the plate can only go in one way, at least how I can see it.



Let me ask this way. If I were to adjust the alignment using the three bolts, what would I do?

Thanks!

The holes in the control arm should be oval.

 

[Matthew13]

Eureka! Now we're getting somewhere.

I couldn't understand what y'all meant by adjustability, and this is why. P2B (and Steve, and others), now I understand what you're getting at.

This is what my control arm looks like. Forgive the 10:00PM, dark, can't get the camera situated right, out of focus, nice helping of gin, pix:

...and...

Granted, not the best pictures, but the holes on the bottom of the arm are round, not oval. I only got pix of 2 of the 3 holes and didn't get the top, but that's a later endeavor and I'm 99.9% sure they're round too. I'm sure the driver's side is the same. Like I said, it's a royal ***** to get everything lined up on install. There's no room for error and I have to get all three bolts aligned perfectly to make it work.

So, do I have weird control arms? Later versions? Am I out of my gourd? Wait, don't answer that...

Over to y'all.

Matthew

 

[jhax]

My b4 Control arms (so far 3 different ones on 3 different cars) are all round.

 

[Abacus]

The holes in the control arm should be oval.

I have replaced ball joints on dozens of B4's and never runs across one with oval slots. The holes on that one are so worn out I wouldn't use it and they're obviously not factory, but from a loose ball joint moving around.

What does that control arm go to, I don't recognize the additional holes.

 

[Steve Addy]

Maybe they aren't oval (elongated)? I have really only paid attention to Mk2/3 and I could swear that they're elongated to accommodate for tiny amount of alignment changes.

I haven't looked at B3/B4 (4 cyl) since I setup the Passat wagon in 2015. I have some new aftermarket Mk2 control arms that are elongated and I will check the new aftermarket Mk3 today when I'm at the shop.

I could be wrong here, maybe the B3/4 cars don't have any lower adjustment at the 3 holes, and if that's the case there would be no difference in pulling the ball joint out of the control arm vs pulling the bearing carrier off the ball joint.

Could be my mistake!!

Steve

 

[Matthew13]

Steve - no worries! I'm just glad I wasn't missing something, and now I more fully understand how all this goes together.

What I've learned:
- Some (many?) B4 control arms have *non-adjustable* connections at the ball joint interface with the control arm (the "3-bolt plate")
-- I'll call the non-adjustable ones "round-hole control arms" vs. "oval-hole control arms" for the adjustable ones. <---Non-technical terms
- To remove or disconnect the steering knuckle (for axle/CV or wheel bearing service) you can either:
-- Remove the pinch bolt and pull the actual ball joint from the knuckle, leaving the entire ball joint in the control arm
...OR...
-- Remove the 3-bolt plate from the control arm, leaving the entire ball joint in the knuckle
- Neither of these methods disturbs the car's alignment on *round-hole control arms*
- If oval-hold control arm folks remove the ball joint from the control arm, they MUST mark where their ball joints and control arms are sitting prior to disassembly and reassemble the same way; this preserves alignment

Does this make sense? Someone step in where I've mis-spoken or used incorrect terms.

My bearing/axle saga sucked, but if we learned something then there's good in it.

Matthew

 

[P2B]

I have replaced ball joints on dozens of B4's and never runs across one with oval slots. The holes on that one are so worn out I wouldn't use it and they're obviously not factory, but from a loose ball joint moving around.

What does that control arm go to, I don't recognize the additional holes.

Photo is of a MK4 control arm. It is not worn, that's how they are made. I squirt the 3 bolt heads with white paint the night before disassembly when removing axles to avoid the need for alignment afterward.

I just assumed earlier cars would have the same provision for camber adjustment, my bad.