Front Sway Bar Removal

[Howlin Wolf]

Sorry if this topic has been covered already. I've been searching for awhile and am not finding anything, so I'll go ahead and ask. If there is an existing discussion, I'd appreciate if someone could point me to it.

I'm doing a suspension upgrade to my 99 Jetta Mk4. Shine racing springs, Koni FSB shocks and a Shine rear stabilizer bar, all purchased from Kerma. When doing this upgrade they recommend the removal of the front sway bar. I'm curious to know if anyone else has done this and their opinion of how it effects the handling.

 

[Seatman]

Well it could be to help the car turn in sharper but I would have thought you'd run a much higher risk of over steer. Do they not explain it themselves?

 

[NHgranite]

That's how my car is set-up, except I'm running BilliHDs.

I've had my front sway bar disconnected for the past two years. I like the balance and feel in both the summer & winter.

You can disconnect and zip-tie the bar out of the way to see for yourself.

I've since installed Audi LCAs, I can no longer attach the front bar. No biggie... I just removed it instead. ;-)

 

[Howlin Wolf]

Well it could be to help the car turn in sharper but I would have thought you'd run a much higher risk of over steer. Do they not explain it themselves?

Yes, that was the explanation they gave. Reduced under steer and faster turning response. But that was from a salesman, I wanted to check for some feedback from people who had actually performed this mod.

That's how my car is set-up, except I'm running BilliHDs.

I've had my front sway bar disconnected for the past two years. I like the balance and feel in both the summer & winter.

You can disconnect and zip-tie the bar out of the way to see for yourself.

I've since installed Audi LCAs, so I can't attach the front bar anymore. No biggie... I just removed it instead. ;-)

The work is being done today and that's what I told my mechanic to do, just tie them off so I can drive it first and see how it feels.

I'm so excited about this mod, feel like I'm getting a new car.

Thanks guys for getting back to me. Much appreciated.

 

[navajow]

You are going to love that setup. I did Koni FSDs and Shine springs last year. Rear sway has yet to go on. It's amazing handling and comfort. Be prepared to buy some stickier tires... once I kerma tuned my car I can't keep traction anymore.

 

[mk4gasm]

I don't have this setup but I haven't had a front sway bar for 2 years now, never felt a difference driving like a normal person. little more "gushy" if you're on the interstate and have to change lanes fast, but nothing crazy.

 

[Howlin Wolf]

You are going to love that setup. I did Koni FSDs and Shine springs last year. Rear sway has yet to go on. It's amazing handling and comfort. Be prepared to buy some stickier tires... once I kerma tuned my car I can't keep traction anymore.

Yes, tires and wheels are next. Thinking 17 x 7 with Conti Pure Contacts at 225/50 but still researching.

It's been at the garage all week. Supposed to have it back tomorrow. Can't wait.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Seems there are a lot of threads on this lately. I agree with NHGranite, although I've decided to keep mine attached for street use. It's a front wheel drive car. If I want something to kick the rear out I drive the Miata.

 

[GTiTDi]

No front sway bar in my mk2 and love it....so fun to toss the tail out with entering corners fast and trailing throttle over steer

 

[FlyTDI Guy]

Though frustrating at times, understeer is safer for daily driving for sure. Now if you were auto-x'ing, I wouldn't even think twice.

 

[Seatman]

The thing is that the rear axle already has an arb built in, then you're adding another one so the back is going to be pretty stiff anyway. I wouldn't have thought it was worth removing the front bar as the turn in should be more responsive anyway?

I know with fitting the rear axle off the skoda octavia vrs with the bigger arb mine turns in great and does roll much at all.

 

[duwem]

Put the rear bar on first, then decide if you want to pull the front.


I have a 28mm rear on the "soft" setting and I can kick the rear end out in a roundabout if I push it. Any more than that and it might be dicey for a daily driver.

 

[Howlin Wolf]

Thanks to all for sharing your opinions. After reading the responses here, and reading the whole Handling thread, I opted to disconnect it. Still in place but zip tied off. I've only driven about 100 miles since the modifications were installed and so far, I'm loving it. Even with a well worn set of 205/60 15 Tiger Paws the rear end stayed put on a few corners that I pushed to the max of what I usually drive. Next will be new wheels and tires, likely 215/50 16s, to complete the handling upgrades.

 

[kcunniff]

I'm a bit confused here...

Wouldn't removing the front sway bar hurt performance by reducing rigidity??? For those who have removed it, please explain the reasoning here. Learning something new that I would not have initially thought about.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

If by rigidity you mean body stiffness, no. Sway bar adds nothing. The Sway bar increases front roll stiffness by transferring pressure from the unloaded (inside) wheel to the loaded (outside) wheel during cornering. It can reduce body roll, but also increases understeer and limits traction when cornering. Front bars are considered important for safety as the car will undesteer at the limit, and lifting off the accelerator will usually cause it to come back into line. Inexperienced drivers can much more easily handle a car that wants to run wide in a corner than one that wants to spin.

 

[Spätzle Burner]

I have been told it is counter productive to remove the sway bar on a car with a limited slip. Any opinions?

 

[Lug_Nut]

The Sway bar increases front roll stiffness by transferring pressure from the unloaded (inside) wheel to the loaded (outside) wheel during cornering.

And I see the glass as half empty.
The outside front wheel being tucked up into the fender liner is raising that end of the (anti-)sway bar. That lift on one end is applied as lift at the other end, thus trying to lift the inside front wheel.
The anti-sway or anti-roll bar may keep the outside from running on the bump stop, but without a limited slip differential the inside drive wheel will have a greater tendency to spin.

image captured by a spectator at the 21st Century Automotive Challenge 2011

 

[azerite]

Lsd

I have been told it is counter productive to remove the sway bar on a car with a limited slip. Any opinions?

I have an LSD with the sway removed, and have vr6 springs. I have only taken the tail out once, when it was wet. WHen it's try the ability to take turns is rediculous.

 

[clamb]

With an upgraded spring and strut/shock I think the effect of the fsb is diminished considerably. I removed it on my golf (gti springs, stock struts/shocks with h&r 25mm rsb) and the car was very neutral. It's likely to come off of my jetta as well (far stiffer neuspeed springs, 28mm auto tech rsb).

 

[[486]]

Interesting. Never thought about the geometry of sway bars, just blindly accepted that they are good, I can see how they'd reduce traction on a FWD car now though.

I'd take mine out, but with the 2 door golf, the wheelbase is so short that it wants to switch ends pretty quick anyways.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

All MKIV cars have the same wheelbase.

 

[[486]]

All MKIV cars have the same wheelbase.

No ****?
Huh.

In my defense I come from the land of trucks where there are so many different combinations that you've got 10 different length rear driveshaft setups.
Lot easier to keep the rear behind you with 161" of wheelbase, too.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Yep. All 99.5", IIRC. Of course overall lengths vary.

 

[[486]]

Now I suddenly have less excuses for all the ditches I've been in.
Ah well, might as well pull the thing off while swapping in the poly LCA bushings

 

[hpc]

Had front bar removed when the Audi TT control arms were installed in 2006/2007.
At that time, I had the 5-speed with Peloquin diff. Much less understeer but not
to the point where I was worried about even mild oversteer. Was running
Bilstein HD's with Neuspeed SofSport springs.

Been running with Bilstein B-16's and one of Ryan's 6-speeds with a WaveTrac -
all installed by Matt Whitbread. Running full TT front suspension with a reinforced
subframe being installed shortly - weather permitting my getting to Matt.

I also have a 2013 Mini JCW hardtop and the Bug handles better than the JCW.
Really noticeable along I-40 going to Asheville, NC. The Bug is set a tad softer
than the JCW and even with 18" vs. 17" on the JCW, I don't have bump steer
"oh crap!"s where you pushing hard in a corner and one front wheel encounters
a bump and the car steps sideways - when you're in the inside lane and the
concrete barrier is only 18 inches or so away, having the car step towards
the barrier is an "Oh @#$!" moment. The Bug just glides right over and
maintains the line.

I like not having the front bar. As they say, turn-in is quicker and smoother.

Cheers!