Franko6 Nozzle Balancing

jmodge

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Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 w/.205's 5speed daily summer commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/.216's winter cruiser, 1996 Tacoma ALh
I have no external leaks on injectors (pump has small leak) wondering of they drip in to the motor after car is turned off
Pull them after the car sits for a day or so, if they are leaking the will be wet or damp
 

Fahrvegnugen

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Jan 21, 2017
Location
Burlington Vt
TDI
01 golf 1.9 alh gls silver

MATPOC

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Joined
Dec 28, 2020
Location
Providence, near Hope
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon 5-speed
I get a puff of white smoke on start up, didn't notice it before. Also head was rebuilt 40k ago, I'm thinking too early for valve seals to fail
 

Nevada_TDI

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Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
MATPOC, I too believe you are not due for valve seals yet. I am quite sure Frank can fix them back to perfect if you can do without them for a week or so. In terms of how I think about stuff, ask the Professionals, that is why we pay them to fix our stuff when we cannot.
 

Nevada_TDI

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Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
My nozzles are here! My nozzles are here! I will likely get them in this weekend. I am sure they will be the best running,
most fuel efficient .216's I have ever had, and this is not my first set of .216's. I will keep everyone posted.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Fahrvegnugen and Matpoc,

I would be happy to send you a new nozzle nut. No problem. DO NOT use a a crow's foot wrench. Remove the injector and use a standard 15mm deep socket. If you are trying to tighten in place, maybe a line wrench might work.

When considering what exactly is causing the leak, it doesn't necessarily have to be the nut, but that is where I would start. One of the 'competitors' used to show a torque setting of 45 ft lbs, and we always knew that was wrong. I'm sure that went by the wayside long ago. That 30 degree turn does cure a lot of issues but not all issues.

Also, many years ago, we introduced people to how to seat an injector's crush washer. Sometimes it appears to be a leak from fueling at the nut when it's actually the seating of the crush washer. Bubbles are NOT loss of fuel, but escaping exhaust gasses.

So, when reseating injectors, there is the conception that each time you remove the crush washer, a new one has to go in. Not exactly so... A very experienced aircraft pilot explained 'copper crush gaskets', particularly one that was for a Cessna, I believe. The gasket in this particular aircraft fuel pump could be disassembled and reassembled 2-3x before it had to be discarded. There was a flange on the gasket to mark 1x, 2x usage. But this gasket, like anything on a plane, is expensive. Some resourceful mechanics (and for their own use) would heat the gasket till they glow red and quench it in water to return them to annealed state. It's the opposite of annealing with steel, which red-hot, you harden it; copper anneals when quenched in water from red-hot.

The crush washers can be annealed by heating them on a piece of baling wire. A propane torch is hot enough to accomplish this. When cherry red, dip them immediately into water.

Also, I'm sure we have all seen copper pots or plates that are hammered. The method of hammering or planishing, work hardens the copper. So, that is a technique we have applied for many years. Copper PUSHES poorly, but HAMMERS very well.

Start by annealing your crush washers. Understand, there is a limit to how many times we would suggest doing this...2X. Insert the washers, injectors and lines as normal. Tighten the injector hold down forks to 15 ft lbs. Using a 1/4" flat punch and a 1 lb hammer, make a 6-8" drop to hammer the injector's line nut into the crush washer. The first strike, you will feel a 'thud'. Retighten the hold down fork bolt to 15 ft lbs. The nut will now make an additional 1/6th of a turn. Strike the line's nozzle nut again; you will feel it bounce this time... retighten to 15 ft lbs. Repeat one last time...There will be no exhaust leaks now.

Fuel leaks at the nozzle nut can be deceptive. Use compressed air to blow all the fuel off of the injector until it is dry. Start the engine and watch carefully to see if the fuel is coming from the nozzle nut or the Injector line nut. We often have seen the fuel drip from the top nut. I'm not saying it's not the nozzle nut, but we've been fooled before and so can you be fooled. This is the reasoning...

Just because the injector, properly set, should reach in excess of 4500 psi, does not mean the nut needs to be 'gorilla tight'. Between the body of the nozzle and the injector is a ferrule contact, which should be 45 degrees. We have seen attempts to tighten that nozzle line nut to stop a leak go WAY out of bounds. The ferrule line force needed is probably no more than 20 ft lbs torque. But what we have seen such force applied, the ferrule in the line side is crushed into a 'top hat'. A flat spot is crushed into the line side of the ferrule. This becomes like a washer between the line ferrule and the injector ferrule. Now, in order to stop the ferrule from leaking, it is straight down force, rather than the wedge of the ferrule contact to seal the line-to-injector. I just fixed an abused line this week that was exactly like this. It is not all that uncommon. Understand, the ferrule contact is a very strong seal, where a small amount of straight contact force is compounded by the bevel between the line and the injector. If the line is damaged like that, either we have to grind flat off or the line ferrule or it has to be replaced. We can fix 'em or replace 'em.

There are rare occasions that the seal surface in the injector is also damaged. We fix that, too.

Check it out, Fahrvegnugen. We have a lot of study doing this stuff. That's for sure.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Fahr,

I set the injectors into my own engine, which by the way, I just compression tested again.... 500 psi across the board. Stage II cam, Ported head... and drove your injectors. If I were working with your car and it was here, I'd increase the bottom shim on #2 injector by no more than .002" and see if the deviation for idle and the run at 1575 rpm improved. It's not terrible, but the only way I can judge is in my own very good engine. There are a lot of variables between one and another engine we cannot account for, except by installing the nozzles in the vehicle they were intended for. But overall, you will get decent performance.

If under Wide Open Throttle (WOT) you get much smoke, hammer mod the I.Q to a higher number. Our usual test procedure is to drive in 3rd gear, starting at 35 mph on a flat road, with lights, fan etc turned off. WOT... When the speed hits 40mph, use your phone's stop watch feature and count 3 seconds. Check speed. Raise I.Q. until the speed run drops. Revert to previous setting that held the 3 second speed run. That will optimize your fueling.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Fahr,

Another thought... Switch #1 and #2 injectors. See if the numbers follow the injector or the cylinder. BTW: When checking injectors, we use block 13, 15 and 10. Block 10 will show boost actual and requested. We are looking for a boost around 1000mb -1100mb.

To be quite truthful, the FE numbers are only a 'virtual sensor', done by estimating several reads from the engine. I believe those numbers are fictitiously low. It's just a reference point, anyway. The lower you can make it, the more fuel efficient the engine runs. That's why the hammer mod; to limit how high your I.Q. setting goes.
 

Fahrvegnugen

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Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Location
Burlington Vt
TDI
01 golf 1.9 alh gls silver
I didn’t mean to make you work on the forum! I called you Franko6, because nowhere else I know provides services quite like yours. I’d drive down if I could.

I got a lot of smoke until the switch from cylinder 1 to cylinder 2. The deviation did follow the injector across cylinders. Now that it isn’t visibly leaking I haven’t noticed smoke even during WOT. Just filled up fuel tank today and will check economy next fill up.

Nevada_tdi congrats on your nozzles, I’ll be happy to hear of your smooth .216s! I bought some used nozzles off a member here and Frank alerted me that they had been soiled with alternative fuels. There is something about this particular nozzle that is not cooperating. I have waited so long to dial up the psi I can’t wait much longer. I might be ready now
 

Nevada_TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
As mentioned before, these are not my first set of .216's to be set up, although this will be the first set of .216's I have had set up by Frank. Will post new .216's info tomorrow.
 

Nevada_TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
WOO-HOO!! I just finished installing the new injectors, and all went well. I swapped #1 and #4 together, and #2 and #3 together. Number 1 looked perfect, and number 4 also perfect, number 2 was a bit sooty and number ( not 4 it was 3) EDIT was caked with soot/carbon. I don't remember my last IQ reading, but I am sure my new nozzles will not soot up like the ones I took out did. Now, on for the test drive. ;)
 
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Nevada_TDI

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Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
Okay, let's discuss the test drive. Damn! The same brand of nozzles, the same size of nozzles, just set up properly should not have made such a huge difference; but oh, Sacred Bovine, (Holy Cow) it did. On dry flat pavement half-way through first gear I tagged the throttle and the tires started chirping into second and more chirping and then I had to get out of the throttle, speed limits and such... WOT no noticeable smoke and gangs of torque. I am not sure I want to change the I.Q. unless fuel economy is still dismal.
Frank, you made a silk purse from a sow's ear, again. Thank you.
 

MATPOC

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2020
Location
Providence, near Hope
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon 5-speed
WOO-HOO!! I just finished installing the new injectors, and all went well. I swapped #1 and #4 together, and #2 and #3 together. Number 1 looked perfect, and number 4 also perfect, number 2 was a bit sooty and number 4 was caked with soot/carbon. I don't remember my last IQ reading, but I am sure my new nozzles will not soot up like the ones I took out did. Now, on for the test drive. ;)
2 and 3 are probably dirty from EGR, intake runners on 2 and 3 seem to get more dirty first, at least in my car. I did intake cleaning a week ago, pulled intake again after to clean turbo vanes and found lots of nasty black oily crap
 

Nevada_TDI

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Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
2 and 3 are probably dirty from EGR, intake runners on 2 and 3 seem to get more dirty first, at least in my car. I did intake cleaning a week ago, pulled intake again after to clean turbo vanes and found lots of nasty black oily crap
Great thinking there..I have not had EGR for years, but based on the amount of soot coming out of the tailpipe, that would explain my smoke and crappy FE. I have my I.Q.'s from the nozzles prior to the rebuild, and they are not good at all. I will post them later today if I get to it.
 

Nero Morg

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Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Location
OR
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2014 A6 TDI, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
Great... Now you've got me thinking about my fuel economy again.... Lol glad yours is running better
 

Nevada_TDI

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Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
I finally got a chance to speak with Frank today; you all know he is busier than a one-legged man in an ass kicking contest. He asked me about the nozzles,I told him how happy I am with the way the engine runs now. I told him I am touting my praises for his work, and he asked me to stop. He really did. He has more work than he can handle right now, and the amount of delay needed for him to do his usual quality work is really taking time to turn around. I was fortunate this time I had a set of wrecking yard injectors, so there would not be any down time for my Jetta.
I highly recommend getting a "spare" set of injectors if you can, that way you can avoid down time if you need new nozzles. Frank does not do "hot swaps", so plan ahead.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Nevada_TDI says: "I highly recommend getting a "spare" set of injectors if you can, that way you can avoid down time if you need new nozzles. Frank does not do "hot swaps", so plan ahead. "

Long time ago, we thought it would be a great idea to have nozzles all ready to go and we just take the old cores as exchange and we called it 'Instant Gratification'... that line got altered and used by one of our competitors, but I think saying they have varying results would be generous. It turned out for us, the #3 injector didn't always come back usable. And not just a few, but when it got too busy to check things out, we got slammed with other people's junk. The profitability of giving away #3 injectors turns the injector install business into a 'not for profit' business. That's not going to happen ever again. Either your #3 works, we replace it or you send a different one.

Another issue we have always seen is 'self-swaps'; where the owner would 'just throw a set on' and see what happened. If that didn't work, try getting 'the other guy' to work with you on those nozzles... But as it turns out, we are often able to either 'fix' problem nozzles or replace. So, rather than a clean start, we resolved injector problems like that. We fix sets. We have many people that went from piston/ melting nozzles to working sets, sometimes using the original nozzle that was not correctly calibrated. But that does lead to an issue...

As for nozzle choices, we have a standard practice. We have trouble with people wanting to send us a set they bought from one of the other retailers. Here is the issue. If I am only able to set 3 out of 4 nozzles, how much do you want to pay me for those results? The answer is: $0. But I have the liability for nozzles and I have no control over quality, price, or the remote possibility that the selling vendor is going to replace a bad part. If I sell nozzles, you get only good ones. Any corrupt or problematic nozzle from our stock is thrown away or returned for credit.

Now, we try to make the downtime practical and set up so they come in and go out in a relative pace that doesn't leave people hanging.. The other truth is, the local junk yards seem to have enough laying around. In many cases, they are entirely rebuildable. Of course, that does NOT include any injector, especially #3, that has ever used WVO. If I smell it, it's a reject. Sorry, but the issues with the lift sensor needle and WVO have been well-documented. In spite of claims to the contrary, getting glycerin out of the innards of the lift sensor is a fool's bet. If we see signs of WVO, the body is returned, unacceptable.

That said, we have had quite a run on 'redo's' from people who got nozzles installed and really didn't get the kind of quality install they needed. It is sometimes a matter of empathy for those being taken advantage of... Especially the ones where the nozzles melted holes in their pistons. But the guy who did that to you... you get this neat chart to show what fluid, temp, exacting pressures, all showing what a great job they did on paper. But the very bottom line says it all. Warranty is for pop pressures only. Flow rate is not guaranteed.

If you don't get the flow rate right, you don't really have calibrated nozzles.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
So having recently received balanced injectors with Wuzetem .230 (PP764) from you Frank (@Franko6 ), what else should we check to find the optimum settings for the car? Right now, I have timing set about the middle between the middle line and advanced. I did the hammer mod today, and got my IQ down to 2.2-2.4. I'm not sure if this is a good number or not. I filled up earlier (though this was from a previous IQ of 4.8), and only yielded 41mpg, which seems low for an ALH.

I'm trying to find a good blend where I have power when I need it (which I do now), but can still achieve mid to high 40s on fuel economy.
 

Nevada_TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
So having recently received balanced injectors with Wuzetem .230 (PP764) from you Frank (@Franko6 ), what else should we check to find the optimum settings for the car? Right now, I have timing set about the middle between the middle line and advanced. I did the hammer mod today, and got my IQ down to 2.2-2.4. I'm not sure if this is a good number or not. I filled up earlier (though this was from a previous IQ of 4.8), and only yielded 41mpg, which seems low for an ALH.

I'm trying to find a good blend where I have power when I need it (which I do now), but can still achieve mid to high 40s on fuel economy.
I know I have it here somewhere the process Frank goes through when setting the IQ on a new set of nozzles. He takes "your' nozzles and puts them in his Jetta, and tests how fast the car is going in three seconds. Set the IQ, check speed at three seconds, and keep adjusting (raising) the IQ until the speed starts to get slower during the three seconds. I do not remember exactly, and if Frank sees this I am sure he will explain exactly what he does.
With .230 nozzles I would raise the IQ to somewhere in the neighborhood of 4.0 to 5.0. A setting of 2.2 to 2.4 is likely more fuel than you need and improve your FE.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
A setting of 2.2 to 2.4 is likely more fuel than you need and improve your FE.
Was that a typo? Improve my fuel economy? Or decrease? I found I have a lot more power available at 2.2-2.4, so now I'm wondering if a happier medium might be closer to 3.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
It was not a typo, to increase your FE, you have to raise your IQ.
But again, is it a matter of constantly changing the IQ, to find the best balance between FE and performance? Right now, the car feels like my BEW, but I have no clue what actual FE is...
 

Nevada_TDI

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Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
No, it is not a matter of having to constantly modify the IQ. The way the Frank sets up the nozzles, means set the IQ where you get little or no smoke and a nice torque curve, along with the best FE you can get. Maybe in 50k miles you may want to look and check your timing and if you want to, swap them out at 100k, but I doubt it will really be necessary. Set the IQ to 3 and go for a drive. If you did not lose any noticeable power, tighten all the bolts and call it good.
I have not checked the IQ since I installed the new nozzles, every time I stab the throttle, I think why mess with perfection? Today I may plug in VCDS just to look.
 
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