Ford will not force diesel on it's customers

[wxman]

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...Clearly the gap is closing. It may never close completely, but definitely gassers are improving. When you consider that my 200 hp Passat gets better official consumption on the highway than the 115 hp 99 Jetta (6.8 vs 7.0), that's quite remarkable given the size and performance difference.

Don't disagree that gassers are improving, but my point is that diesel is improving also.

Bosch forecasts that by mid-decade, diesel cars will average 3.6 l/100 km, and gassers will average 5.5 l/100 km (Dr. Rolf Leonhard, Executive Vice President Engineering [Bosch], Diesel Systems, “The internal-combustion engine of the future: Excellent economy and high power despite smaller size.” Presentation at the 59th International Automotive Press Briefing, Boxberg, June 2009). That's over 50% better fuel consumption and over 35% when taking the extra volumetric heating value of diesel fuel into account.

They also suggest there's more development potential with diesel than gas ( http://johndayautomotivelectronics.com/?p=914 ).

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[MrMopar]

Because Europe is not the US and a completely different market. He is mostly correct except he overlooks the quirky US consumer. If he looked at his trucks he would see Americans paying stupid amounts of money for diesel trucks they will never use for their intended purpose and will spend most of their miles with one occupant on a paved highway with nothing behind it. Same thing for the new F150 Raptor which is a cool truck but completely useless for 99.9% of the buyers, yet I've seen 3 of them in Boulder driving on pavement

I am not saying that EVERYONE in the USA buys only what they need, but lots of people I know use diesel pickups for work - and you will still catch them driving to the Quik-E-Mart in them because they own it as a full-time vehicle instead of having two vehicles.

Same for those F150 Raptors. People can and do have them as hobbies (off-road driving) and I expect that you would see them on pavement being as they have to be driven to where the people are going to go off-road . . .

 

[IFRCFI]

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but my point is that diesel is improving also.

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Won't matter for us if availability doesn't improve in NA.

 

[German_1er_diesel]

Ford isn't forcing diesel on European customers either. They are offering a selection of four gas engines, one flex-fuel and five diesels at launch.

They do, however, force gas engines on Americans.

(Drove the 1.6 diesel Focus yesterday)

 

[Marley]

Ford isn't forcing diesel on European customers either. They are offering a selection of four gas engines, one flex-fuel and five diesels at launch.

They do, however, force gas engines on Americans.

(Drove the 1.6 diesel Focus yesterday)

Wow.

Co-worker got an F-150 raptor.
I got a copy of Diesel Car magazine.
I will delay as long I can the purchase of a new car
because the selection and offerings truly are small.

 

[jbright]

(Drove the 1.6 diesel Focus yesterday)

And what did you think?

 

[wxman]

...When you consider that my 200 hp Passat gets better official consumption on the highway than the 115 hp 99 Jetta (6.8 vs 7.0), that's quite remarkable given the size and performance difference.

Mike - didn't really mean to rain on your, or anyone else’s, 2.0T parade. If you're happy with your Passat 2.0T, that's all that really matters.

My beef is with Ford’s assertion that “an EcoBoost engine comes close to matching the efficiency of a diesel”. I guess it depends on what is meant by “close” and what “diesel” is being considered (there are a few examples of this being true). However, it doesn’t appear to me that the assertion is true in general, and I’ve supported (and further supporting below) my reasons for doubting Ford’s assertion.

The examples of “downsized turbo GDI” vehicles compared to diesel vehicles of essentially the same performance in my earlier post was the ABSOLUTE difference based on CO2 emissions in the NEDC combined test cycle. If you incorporate the higher volumetric energy density of diesel fuel vs. gasoline, the “fuel mileage” is correspondingly higher.

The best “apples-to-apples” comparison that I’ve run across is the latest versions of BMW’s I6 diesel and turbo GDI gasoline engines. Both are 3.0 liters in static displacement and both are rated at 225 kW (see http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/06/bmw-tech-20090625.html#more ). The turbo GDI version features the latest in “twin-scroll” turbocharger technology.

According to specs directly from BMW (pages 28 and 34 respectively of the “BMW Technology Day 2009. EfficientDynamics.” publication), the 3.0 liter “TwinPower” turbo GDI has a minimum brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) of 245 g/kWh. The latest version of the 3.0 liter diesel (i.e., incorporating the 2000 bar CR injection system and VGT on the “smaller” turbocharger) has a minimum BSFC of 197 g/kWh. 245 ÷ 197 = 1.244 or 24.4% greater efficiency.

According to Argonne National Laboratory, ULS gasoline (26 ppm sulfur) has a slightly higher energy content per unit mass than ULS diesel (11 ppm sulfur) (41.18 BTU/gram vs. 40.39 BTU/gram). 1.244 X (41.18/40.39) = 1.268 or 26.8% greater efficiency for the diesel based on BSFC and assuming European gasoline and diesel fuel specs are equivalent to U.S. fuel. Again, this is absolute energy efficiency, and doesn’t take the higher volumetric (e.g., per gallon) energy density of diesel fuel into account.

Assuming ANL’s values of 129,488 BTU/gallon for ULS diesel fuel and 116,090 BTU/gallon for ULS gasoline, based on BSFC, a BMW vehicle with the 3.0 liter diesel should get about 41.4% better fuel mileage than the same vehicle with the turbo GDI engine. From what I’ve been able to gather, these newest engines are both used currently in three BMW vehicle lines in Europe (the 5 series, the 7 series, and the X5). According to official fuel consumption data ( http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/index.asp ), the 535d gets 6.1 liters/100 km or 46.3 mpg (imperial) in the combined NEDC, the 535i gets 8.4 l/100 km or 33.6 mpg. 46.3 ÷ 33.6 = 1.378 or 37.8% better fuel mileage for the 535d. According to BMW, the 535d out-accelerates the 535i (0-100 km/hr), 5.7 seconds to 6.1 seconds. In the 7-series, the 740d has a combined 40.9 mpg vs. 28.5 for the 740i, a 43.5% advantage for the diesel. In this case however, the 740i has better performance statistics, 0-100 km/hr in 5.9 sec vs. 6.3 sec for the 740d. Lastly, in the X5, the X5 40d has a combined 37.7 mpg vs. a combined 28.0 for the X5 40i, a 34.7% advantage for the diesel. In this case, according to BMW, the X5 40d has a slight advantage in 0-100 km/hr performance (6.6 sec vs 6.8 sec). It appears, when taking performance differences into account, the relative efficiency advantage of the diesel correlates quite well with the official fuel consumption values from VCA. Also notice that the fuel consumption data include the diesel with DPF.

The specs on the Ecoboost are very similar to the specs on the BMW GDI gas engine. From info I’ve obtained from various tech documents from Ford, the Ecoboost has a compression ratio of 10.0:1, 12 psi max turbo boost, 200 bar max injection pressure, and fully variable valve timing. The BMW TwinPower GDI (BMW’s specs) has 10.2:1 compression ratio, 10.7 psi (0.7 bar) max turbo boost, 200 bar max fuel injection pressure, and fully variable valve timing (“VALVETRONIC”). There doesn’t appear to be any immediate reason to believe that Ford’s turbo GDI technology would be significantly more efficient than BMW’s turbo GDI technology.

As I’ve mentioned, I acknowledge that there are economic factors that are working against LD diesel vehicles here and, since my expertise isn’t mechanical engineering, maybe I’m missing something with respect to the “downsized turbo GDI vs. diesel” efficiency comparison. Any critical or clarifying comments welcomed.

 

[German_1er_diesel]

And what did you think?

It's a fine engine, the 6-speed manual feels great too. I'd like to drive the 2.0 diesel next.
While I like the high-res color trip computer, the rest of the interior feels cheaper than a VW (cheaper than the old Focus too... 300 km on the clock and the hard plastic on the b-pillar was already scratched...)
Suspension and steering are a bit less tuned for fun, a bit more for comfort, than in the old one. Good seats. A bit overstyled inside and out.

 

[dezeljunky]

Anyone know if the new GDI engines are improved at idle too and not just hwy driving?

My point is that a diesel engine can idle for an hour using 0.1-0.2gal of fuel.

Does GDI improve idle fuel consumption at idle? I know that today's gasser consumes much more than a TDI at idle. This would probably bring up the mpg #s for stop-and-go city driving where idling is an unavoidable part of daily life.

 

[BritD059]

Ecoboost delivers the same MPG only on paper. Real drivers know that gasoline engines rarely deliver their fuel economy ratings, but it is rare for a diesel to miss those numbers. That, and diesel is the same cost or cheaper per liter in lots of European countries (different tax rates) so the payback period is much shorter.

Plus most TDI drivers get more mpgs than whats written on the paper!

 

[German_1er_diesel]

Here are a few pictures of the diesel Focus Ford is not forcing on, but offering European customers.

It was a Titanium with the 1.6 Duratorq TDCi... base price 24,100€ The one I had had a sticker of around 25,100€*IIRC. I think the options might have been : Panther black metallic paint: 480€, "Winter Package I" - heated windshield, heated windshield washers, heated seats: 350€ "Individual Interior styling package 1" some leather accents and small interior styling details 160€.

 

[BadMonKey]

I am not saying that EVERYONE in the USA buys only what they need, but lots of people I know use diesel pickups for work - and you will still catch them driving to the Quik-E-Mart in them because they own it as a full-time vehicle instead of having two vehicles.

Same for those F150 Raptors. People can and do have them as hobbies (off-road driving) and I expect that you would see them on pavement being as they have to be driven to where the people are going to go off-road . . .

Even when we had full size diesel trucks on the farm the large majority of the work could have been easily done by a gasser 1 tone and cost a whole lot less. I really liked the diesels for pulling cattle/horses long distances and mountain runs but that only accounted for about 2-3% of the millage and IMO didn't warrant having 2 of them. If i challenged my relatives on why they paid the extra money they really didn't have a logical response outside of that's what they wanted (and ate into our already small profits).

I could see the hobby/weekender Raptor if you lived in the right areas. Here in Boulder that truck is completely wrong for our areas as the wheel base is too long and wide for our narrow jeep trails and rock crawling. You would have to drive 7+ hours to get to the Moab type high speed rally/endurance style runs that truck is built for. I could drive to the same places in a basic F150 just at a much slower pace.

 

[tlhfirelion]

This thread really caught my interest. I've been looking at the new ford focus wondering if the diesel option would come here. I have been researching the VW Golf for about a year now as my honda winds down it's long life. I've held off because of the HPFP issues and I'll wait to see what the Feds investigation provides (if anything). I even wrote Ford asking if the diesel would be an option and did not hear back. I like the looks of the new Focus and despite my lifelong eversion to all things Ford (Fix Or Repair Daily), I would bet most of the repairs I'd encounter would not cost me 8-10 thousand bucks. (I can't beleive I just even implied a Ford would be more reliable than a VW lol) I live in a hilly area with a 50 mile commute, so diesel would be ideal I think. Even if the focus offered similar MPG's, would the fun factor be there?

I'll have to give the focus a test drive and see if it can handle hills and mountains. I have heard that the Chevy Cruze is going to offer a diesel next year, but there is little info on that.

 

[BadMonKey]

It was a Titanium with the 1.6 Duratorq TDCi... base price 24,100€ The one I had had a sticker of around 25,100€*IIRC. I think the options might have been : Panther black metallic paint: 480€, "Winter Package I" - heated windshield, heated windshield washers, heated seats: 350€ "Individual Interior styling package 1" some leather accents and small interior styling details 160€.

So is it priced competitively with other makes there? In US dollars that's like $34K and puts it in a very competitive price bracket. I could see Americans struggling to pay $34K for a Ford fuel economy engine package in a subcompact hatch. While i would take it over the Audi A3 TDI, i doubt very few others would.

 

[German_1er_diesel]

The Focus is a few grand cheaper than a comparable Golf. A Golf 2.0 TDI equipped like the American Golf TDI would be about 28,000€.
The Focus Titanium includes premium Sony audio, Bluetooth, USB, sports seats, keyless entry, alloys, etc - an A3 TDI with comparable equipment would be about. 10,000 € more.
Don't directly convert European prices into USD - German prices include 19% VAT and room for incentives (People are used to be able to negotiate the final price down)

 

[BadMonKey]

This thread really caught my interest. I've been looking at the new ford focus wondering if the diesel option would come here. I have been researching the VW Golf for about a year now as my honda winds down it's long life. I've held off because of the HPFP issues and I'll wait to see what the Feds investigation provides (if anything). I even wrote Ford asking if the diesel would be an option and did not hear back. I like the looks of the new Focus and despite my lifelong eversion to all things Ford (Fix Or Repair Daily), I would bet most of the repairs I'd encounter would not cost me 8-10 thousand bucks. (I can't beleive I just even implied a Ford would be more reliable than a VW lol) I live in a hilly area with a 50 mile commute, so diesel would be ideal I think. Even if the focus offered similar MPG's, would the fun factor be there?

I'll have to give the focus a test drive and see if it can handle hills and mountains. I have heard that the Chevy Cruze is going to offer a diesel next year, but there is little info on that.

I highly doubt and almost guarantee that you wont see a GM or Ford diesel car option in the next 2-3 years here in the US. I bet you will see a fully electric version of the focus here before you see a diesel version.

I think your wise to move slowly on moving from a Honda commuter to a TDI. While the TDI would be perfect for your hilly 50 mile commute the quirkiness of VW's doesn't always blend with ex-honda owners. I'm in the same boat looking for a fun, reliable, somewhat fuel efficient (30mpg+), compact hatch, manual, and under $32K new.

 

[German_1er_diesel]

So is it priced competitively with other makes there? In US dollars that's like $34K and puts it in a very competitive price bracket. I could see Americans struggling to pay $34K for a Ford fuel economy engine package in a subcompact hatch. While i would take it over the Audi A3 TDI, i doubt very few others would.

I tried building a Golf with a 1.6 TDI (105hp) and comparable equipment with this Focus. I ended up at 27,952€. So this Focus is about 3,000€ cheaper than a comparable Golf. (Which you will feel in the interior materials... but the Focus has other merits.)

The point is: This wouldn't be a $34K car if brought into the US. At least in Europe, it's 10-15% cheaper than a Golf in 1.6 diesel trim. For about 2,000€ on top of the price of the 1.6 diesel, it's possible to get a 2.0 diesel with 163hp... much cheaper than VW's 170hp GTD.

 

[BadMonKey]

I tried building a Golf with a 1.6 TDI (105hp) and comparable equipment with this Focus. I ended up at 27,952€. So this Focus is about 3,000€ cheaper than a comparable Golf. (Which you will feel in the interior materials... but the Focus has other merits.)

The point is: This wouldn't be a $34K car if brought into the US. At least in Europe, it's 10-15% cheaper than a Golf in 1.6 diesel trim. For about 2,000€ on top of the price of the 1.6 diesel, it's possible to get a 2.0 diesel with 163hp... much cheaper than VW's 170hp GTD.

Kind of explains why Ford isn't likely to bring it to the US. I looked at the Titanium 2.0L GDI and they wanted around $22.2K, and the deal killer for me was the 5 speed was only available in the stripped down SE version for like $18.9K. I cant imagine Ford parking a diesel version next to it for $30K and actually selling many. They would have to price it under the Golf TDI by $1-2K or around $25-27K and likely have minimal profit left.

 

[German_1er_diesel]

My point was, in the same market it is about 3k cheaper than a golf TDI.

 

[MrMopar]

Here are a few pictures of the diesel Focus Ford is not forcing on, but offering European customers.

It was a Titanium with the 1.6 Duratorq TDCi... base price 24,100€ The one I had had a sticker of around 25,100€*IIRC.

Great, a $35,000 Ford Focus. I'll pass on paying Lexus prices for a Ford economy car.

 

[German_1er_diesel]

It's not a Lexus price... It's a cheaper-than-a-Golf price. I did a price comparison a few posts back.

 

[MrMopar]

It's not a Lexus price... It's a cheaper-than-a-Golf price. I did a price comparison a few posts back.

Yeah, the Golf is a rip-off as well. A Lexus IS starts at $32,645.

 

[German_1er_diesel]

Yeah, the Golf is a rip-off as well. A Lexus IS starts at $32,645.

In Germany, a IS250 starts at 35,790€. Comparing European and US prices will always be apples/oranges, because European prices always include large VAT... and Europeans will always expect to negotiate down about 15% from list price.

 

[MrMopar]

In Germany, a IS250 starts at 35,790€. Comparing European and US prices will always be apples/oranges, because European prices always include large VAT... and Europeans will always expect to negotiate down about 15% from list price.

I can see the issue with VAT being a non-comparable issue, but there are those in the USA that have a hard-on for bringing VAT to the masses.

Here in the USA people expect there to be rebates and other incentives too. I'm not sure there are too many vehicles that you can get 15% off except for Chrysler and maybe Mitsubishi - those two brands are begging people to buy.

 

[German_1er_diesel]

Here in the USA people expect there to be rebates and other incentives too. I'm not sure there are too many vehicles that you can get 15% off except for Chrysler and maybe Mitsubishi - those two brands are begging people to buy.

I got 17% on the BMW, and that was in the summer of 2008, when the 1-series was in really hot demand. European list prices are inflated to make room for negotiations.
And to adjust for VAT, you'd have to divide any German price by 1.19 first. My sole point was: A Focus doesn't cost Lexus money. It costs Focus money, which is lower-middle-of-the-pack with other C-segment cars: Halfway between a Hyundai and a Golf.

 

[BadMonKey]

My point was, in the same market it is about 3k cheaper than a golf TDI.

I understood your point, I was trying to take your price comparison to our market.

I guess my point was Ford is using their diesel engines to remain competitive in your market with all the other diesels available. Here in the US they have no reason to offer a lower profit margin diesel to stay competitive.

 

[German_1er_diesel]

I guess my point was Ford is using their diesel engines to remain competitive in your market with all the other diesels available. Here in the US they have no reason to offer a lower profit margin diesel to stay competitive.

A diesel can't be much more expensive to make than a turbocharged direct injected gas engine. As you see in this table, the 1.6 diesel and the 1.6 Ecoboost are priced very close together. The Ecoboost has more power, the diesel more torque. I'd be VERY surprised if they had lower margins on the diesel. The 1.6 is a shared development with Peugeot, and can be had in many Peugeots, Citroens, Volvos, Mazdas and Fords.

Here's the Focus price list... Sedan, hatch and wagon. (All prices include 19% VAT)

Yes, you can't get a gasser with an automatic. Not enough demand. And yes, that's a 10-engine launch lineup that will be extended soon.

 

[VWBeamer]

and I like it that way, as long as i have a diesel to drive....

Then i can smugly flyby those small gas cars on the highway, knowing I hvae more power, room and economy then the little POS gas powered car the guy in the next lane is driving.

I don't see diesel as being a mass market offering. I think Ford has it right. Gasser technology is cheaper to produce, buy, and maintain. Diesel is a premium technology that just doesn't have mass market appeal. The general populace is too ignorant at this point to appreciate the value of a diesel engine- or to be able to properly care for it.

 

[ultranaut]

My previous car was a Ford, I would of bought a diesel Ford Fiesta to replace it if I could. Not that I don't love my Golf TDI, but unless the Fiesta was more expensive I would have chosen it instead.
After a year of diesel driving I am convinced I will never buy another gasser again. If Ford isn't willing to "force" me to buy a diesel car from them I will never buy another car from them.

 

[German_1er_diesel]

So if they don't force diesel on you, you won't force them to sell you a car?