Flexible Service Interval Retrofit?

Birdman

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Michael you might want to check if all the sensor does is level or like some believe works with the MFA and helps tell when the oil needs changed by heat and time maybe. I am in that camp. the sensor seems to be to much for just a level .
 

Michael Moore

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Birdman:

I'll ask the staff at the Zurich dealer tomorrow. Some of these VW options are "country specific" - I don't know whether CH gets cars with this sensor in it or not. But, I will ask.

Michael
 

strretch

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Michael, the main thing I want to know is similar to Birdman: What exactly does this thing do for us??

The only other thing I'd like to know is something you could take pictures of. There's supposedly a heat shield on the wiring to the sensor. I'd just like to know how the wiring is routed near the engine and where that heat shield is placed. If your dealer has one on a hoist, this should be easy to see.

Thanks very much for the offer!
 

Michael Moore

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Strrech:

I think wyseguy described the function of the whole system pretty well in his first post on page 1 of this thread - the thing monitors oil temperature cycles, and from that, the software in the instrument cluster calculates when the oil should be changed. I don't know that for sure, I'm just taking wyseguy's word for it, but it seems sensible enough.

On page 12 of the PDF file that MOGolf refers to in his post of November 12, 2002 19:51 (1.9 l/66 kW turbo-diesel engine, engine codes ALH, Current Flow Diagram), reference is made to an oil level sensor and oil level warning light in the instrument cluster.

I think that "what this does for us" is two things, first, it optomizes our oil change interval based on trend monitoring (how many cycles, length of the cycle, operating temperatures reached, etc.) and second, it gives us a warning lamp in the instrument cluster that tells us if our oil level is low.

I'm not sure if prior installation of a MFA (multi function display) with the ability to display text information is required before the information about oil changes being due or low oil levels can be displayed to the driver. Your own comment of November 13, 2002 15:59 suggests that this information might be displayed just using the two colour warning light, however, I remember from when I was buying my MFA cluster last year that the EKTA listed different part numbers for "cluster with check-packet" and "cluster without check-packet". SVTWEB bought a cluster with a check packet this summer, it turned out that some of the clusters with check packets are also the clusters that have the large, full pixel display that is also used for the nav system (photo here).

Having said that, though, I would be surprised if this fancy instrument cluster is required in order to display the information about when to change the oil. In many European markets, when you buy the car, you get free service included for a year or two. My guess is that VW came up with this sensor in order to reduce expenses involved in providing the free service - the oil only gets changed when it needs to be changed. Also perhaps to reduce warranty claims caused by drivers running very low on oil.

Anyway - I'm not much of an engine guy, I don't know squat about engines, other than where to put the windshield washer fluid under the hood. But I am good with a camera
, so if you need any pictures of a Swiss Golf with this thing installed, let me know what you want the picture taken of, and I will try to get it. I'll try to get the heat shield pictures you asked for later this week (if the Swiss cars come with this gadget).

[ November 17, 2002, 10:28: Message edited by: Michael Moore ]
 

weedeater

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While adapting my new cluster yesterday I noticed that there is a value in it for Oil Temperature (group 50 #3, I think). So if I were a betting man, I would bet that the oil temperature can be displayed if the cluster is programmed correctly. Also the idiot light goes on if the level is too low (below the sensor).
 

tongsli

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Based upon information provided by MOGOlf and some arm twisting from Jerry, Brian and folks here, I think bypassing T14a altogether is the way to go.

I'm also curious to know if the heat shield for the wiring is necessary.

Lito
 

wyseguy

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wyseguy100
Originally posted by tongsli:
Based upon information provided by MOGOlf and some arm twisting from Jerry, Brian and folks here, I think bypassing T14a altogether is the way to go.

I'm also curious to know if the heat shield for the wiring is necessary.

Lito
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is a flexible service interval sensor. It takes many things into account. Level, which is sensed variably. It alsoo monitors temperature. No pressure is measured (its in the pan
)

I wired mine into T14a, for my purpose it was neceessary as the engine side of the harness was already wired. Personally I would always wire it into the sensor. If for any reason you needed to pull the motor harness it would be easier. lus OEM is always better, right?


[ November 17, 2002, 19:18: Message edited by: wyseguy ]
 

strretch

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Originally posted by wyseguy:
It is a flexible service interval sensor. It takes many things into account. Level, which is sensed variably. It alsoo monitors temperature. No pressure is measured (its in the pan
)
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks wyseguy. That's partly what I wanted to know, I think.

Michael Moore, thanks too for the lengthy response to my post. I wasn't meaning to seem ignorant, and I have read this thread all the way through numerous times, including the first post. My difficulty is that people (myself included) keep saying "I think it does this..." and no one but wyseguy really has this thing actually working.

Specifically what I was wondering is:

(1) Does it display oil level and temp warnings by illuminating an idiot light? I believe wyseguy and weedeater answered this as yes.

(2) What information does it actually give you on the MFA or the stock display? That is, does it put the level and temperature as a number that varies, as you drive along, on your display along with the other data such as MPG and average MPH? I believe wyseguy just answered this as yes, if I understood correctly. On the stock cluster, is it just an idiot light? This question is unanswered.

(3) How exactly does the flexible service interval work? What formula of temperature/level/distance/time does it use to determine that it's time to change the oil? How do you as a VAG-COM user adjust this formula? My understanding of the fixed service interval is that you can adjust how often (in miles or km) the reminders are given and when the last service was provided. What is adjustable with the flexible option? These questions are still unanswered to my knowledge.

(4) Related to the previous question, if I get everything installed, and it bugs me every 1000 miles to change my oil, I'm going to be very peeved unless I have a way to tell it to lengthen that distance. Can we adjust enough so that this sort of thing doesn't happen? If not, is this mod worth it?

Wyseguy does seem to like it, so I'm not knocking the mod, but I just want to understand everything I'm getting into before pulling my oil pan.

[ November 18, 2002, 06:42: Message edited by: strretch ]
 

Michael Moore

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I'll ask the VW service people here in Switzerland if they know anything about how this system works. Again, this assumes that Swiss cars do, in fact, get this system.

Michael
 

Birdman

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(4) Related to the previous question, if I get everything installed, and it bugs me every 1000 miles to change my oil, I'm going to be very peeved unless I have a way to tell it to lengthen that distance. Can we adjust enough so that this sort of thing doesn't happen? If not, is this mod worth it? Mine came on at 1900 miles every time i started the car (counting down to 0. just go in and clear the OO in number 17 with the avag-com

[ November 18, 2002, 10:24: Message edited by: Birdman ]
 

tongsli

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I am happy to report that oil pan arrived and it has a hole!

I will be picking it up Friday morning. If I get a chance, I'll post some pics.

Lito
 

msauve

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I'll just mention that VAG sells cars with two different sensors - there is the oil quality one which presumably relies upon computer analysis to determing change intervals, and there is also a simple oil level sensor which triggers a low oil alarm. I believe that both use the same oil pan mountings.

My US Audi TT came with the latter.
 

strretch

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Here's some information about the flexible service interval from the Ross-Tech page:

VW Service Interval Reminders (toward the bottom)

Adaptation is possible for oil quality, maximum distance to next service, and (maximum?) time. Oil quality is expressed in arbitrary units, where they recommend 00004 for diesel and 00002 for gas.

They also indicate that driving style might play a role in the flexible service reminders. Would this require the acceleration/yaw sensors that are needed for ESP?

Another interesting thing I discovered tonight: The Golf/Jetta Bentley CD shows a picture of the oil level/temp sensor in the section on the instrument cluster, but the caption for it says "Not applicable". It does discuss DTCs related to the oil sensor, as well. There is nearly no information about setting service intervals on the cluster. There is no more current Bentley CD than the one I have, so I'm wondering why there isn't more information included about this sensor and the service reminders.
 

tongsli

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msuave,

Do you have part numbers? I've searched ETKA (US and European) I cannot find a second part number.

thanks,

Lito

Brian, Jerry is setting his cluster for the sensor tomorrow to see if anything shows up on the MFA display. I'll be curious to know what DTC's are thrown as well.

[ November 19, 2002, 21:56: Message edited by: tongsli ]
 

strretch

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Originally posted by tongsli:
Brian, Jerry is setting his cluster for the sensor tomorrow to see if anything shows up on the MFA display. I'll be curious to know what DTC's are thrown as well.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">From Bentley:

DTC 00562, Oil level thermal sensor -G266-

- Open circuit/short circuit to B+
- Short circuit to ground
- Implausible signal ?

Possible causes: Open/short circuit in wiring between Oil level thermal sensor -G266- and instrument cluster or -G266- malfunctioning

Possible effects: The oil level control lamp blinks for approx. 5 seconds after ignition is switched on, or an oil temperature of 155 *C is displayed in measuring value block and the engine oil level is displayed as not OK.

Corrective actions: Read measuring value blocks (display group 050 has data for oil temperature in *C in block 3), check for open or short circuit in wiring using wiring diagram, or replace -G266-.

I'm guessing that will be the DTC thrown. Hope that's helpful.
 

Kennedy

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So would I... Look like it throws a CEL and maybe a oil light when the sensor "trips".

Originally posted by weedeater:
from the 'possible effects', I'd say that the temperature is not shown.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[ November 20, 2002, 09:19: Message edited by: Kennedy ]
 

SVTWEB

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1) No Temperature reading on the MFA.
2) I can only find 1 sensor part number.
3) Oil Light has 2 LED's Yellow/Red. Oil Low=Yellow : No Pressure=red
4) Michael correctly described the Service interval via Heat cycles. It also bases it on the amount of fuel consumed/NOT miles traveled.

[ November 20, 2002, 09:54: Message edited by: SVTWEB ]
 

Michael Moore

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Just a follow-up here - I went to my VW dealer twice this week, hoping to find a VW up on the hoist that had one of these sensor things in it, and did not find one. I will keep looking.

Michael
 

tongsli

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Guys, here it is!!











The holes are threaded. Brian, 41mm you were right!! Looks like that's all we need to do.

Lito

[ November 27, 2002, 21:54: Message edited by: tongsli ]
 

strretch

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Sorry I've been away for a few days. Some news:


These are the sealing washers I received. Note that these are the sealing washers that already come with the sensor! Therefore, I have 4 spares in case there are leaks or something.

Chris K., I have a sensor for you.

The only thing I don't have is the bolts, because the parts people I was working with are idiots. The price I was given was about $1.50 for 12 of these bolts, so I think it will pay to source these closeby rather than having me go after my idiotic parts people. I can't imagine this will be hard.

Nice pics as always, Lito. Let me know when you guys want to get together.

-Brian
 

tongsli

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Brain,

We can use an alternative source for the bolts. We need to figure out how to cut the OEM pan. There is a machine shop that was recommended to me, now I just need time to visit them. If you've got a recommendation, let us know.

We've got to make the cutting a priority while I've got the pan still sitting in my house and NOT on my car


Lito
 

Michael Moore

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I have been following this project with great interest, and there is one thing I am a bit confused about.

In his post of November 15th on page 3 of this thread, Wyseguy stated: "Well guys I have to burst your bubble. I just read through the procedure you guys are working with. Drilling the pan and tapping it it not a viable solution. Trust me I tried.

There is a milled relief in the pan that requires welding aluminum to the pan and milling it smooth. When I picked up my new AFN Euro 110 motor, it had a cracked pan. I took it off, and planned on taking my original pan to work to mill the hole in it with a bridgeport I have here at work. I got everything to work, sized things up and started cutting. I was able to get it to fit perfect, but the sensor sat about an 1/8" too high (towards the crank) This means that level would be indicating to low when it was not. I investigated shimming the sensor on the pan, but wasn't comfortable with a non stock mounting procedure. I ended up repairing the damaged pan I had instead of fiddling with the non drilled pan -> drilled pan conversion."

It does sound to me like Wyseguy is pretty well informed about the issues involved in milling metal parts such as this oil plan, although I have to confess I don't really understand exactly what the problem is that he is referring to.

After having looked at Tongsli's photos of the oil pan with the hole that was put there by VW when the pan was manufactured, it sort of looks to me like it should be possible to drill a 41mm hole, then mill the lower (outer) surface of the pan flat in the area surrounding the hole. Is this a correct assumption, or am I missing something? Maybe I am missing something very obvious, please keep in mind I am not knowlegable about metalworking.

The main reason I am interested in drilling a hole (rather than buying a new oil pan) is because I already have glued an oil pan heater on my existing oil pan, and the damn heaters are expensive, so I don't want to have to buy another heater.

Michael

[ December 02, 2002, 10:05: Message edited by: Michael Moore ]
 
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