first p/d engine failure from not using 50501

[vwrobert51]

OK guys I have just been told about a p/d that has failed due to non use of 50501 oil, car was towed into shop, cust had oil change bills from (****lube)car had been using 5w-40 wt regular oil for 40k miles, engine has loud knocking noise and power loss, after v/c was removed, found cam and inj rollers badly scored and worn, will update when further info comes in.info came to me from trusted tech at another dealer ship, will up date with more info but I just wanted to put it out their to you all.IT can happen!

 

[whitedog]

"Dino" oil or synthetic? I'm guessing you mean "dino" oil when you said, "regular oil".

I don't suppose it possible to get pictures taken. That would be teh kewlness.

 

[vwrobert51]

as i was told cust was using regular oil from (*** lube) and I am trying to get photos. as I know seeing is beliving,

 

[whitedog]

I guess that's what happens when you are in a hurry and need to get your oil changed in a jiffy.

 

[jackbombay]

Does anyone know how much more pressure the injector lobes exert on the injectors compared ot the regular lobes on the lifters?

 

[tjl]

as i was told cust was using regular oil from (*** lube) and I am trying to get photos. as I know seeing is beliving,

If it was conventional (by US standards -- group I or II) oil, it couldn't have been 5W-40.

 

[dieseldorf]

where's d2305 when you need him

 

[bjmarler]

Didn't the pd engine increase the injector psi from about 15,000 up to 30,000 psi. Not that those numbers relate to pressure directly applied to the cam lobe, but your mind can imagine just how aggressive of a lobe angle would be needed to do that.

Here is one thread talking about it...
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=887923&page=&fpart=1&vc=1

... and another...
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat.php?C...amp;fpart=1>

...and one non pd tdi cam lobe problem... discussion...
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat.php?C...true#Post841813

 

[03_01_TDI]

Keep us updated. I'm curious as to what the *****lube place will do about this.

I know that wal-mart lube bought a local guy a new hemi engine when they didn't tighten the oil plug.

also curious as to what the oil changes interval was 3,000 miles???

 

[03_01_TDI]

this might be the starting of a huge snowball effect. Its been about time for a good % of PD engines to start getting around 40-50k miles. Might start seeing alot of this happening all across the US.

I can see my "dealership using wrong oil thread" getting some attention by a large law firm ie class action law suit.

 

[sunline]

I really doubt the "snowball effect" as there are a gazillion of these motors around the world and no doubt a lot of them are run by folks looking to save a buck particularyly after they get a bunch of miles onem. Wouldnt believe any of this without much more info...

 

[d2305]

I don't think you can buy 5w40 dino. Must have been 15w40 or 10w40. I bet it wasn't delvac/mobile 1 t/suv.

Had I used my local dealer for oil changes, I would have been using castrol 505.00. What ever happened to the guy using delvac in his PD?

 

[03_01_TDI]

I really doubt the "snowball effect" as there are a gazillion of these motors around the world and no doubt a lot of them are run by folks looking to save a buck particularyly after they get a bunch of miles onem. Wouldnt believe any of this without much more info...

true but around the world there is knowledge of the correct oil and the oil is much wider spread in europe. It's in the US market and the PD has only been in the US for around 2 years that would be roughly 20-40k miles for a American PD driver.

Its about time for the miles and damage on American PD cars using the wrong oil for the damage to show up. Just depends on how "wrong/bad" the oil was used and the oil change interval. Perhaps some "wrong" oil changed every 3k might last a little bit longer before engine failure.

I'm am curious as to how this PD oil issue will play out. All I can say is the value of non PD engines like mine

or both of my VW TDI cars will increase. As long as the consumers don't think all TDI's are the same engine. Could be a huge black eye for VW or even a knockout.

 

[dieseldorf]

Re: 1st PD engine failure from not using 505.01 oi

worst case, Iffy Lube will buy this guy a new engine or make good on reqd rebuild. They have liability coverage for such mis-calculations.


we're very anxious to review the full photo documentation, Robert. Good luck with it!

Thanks.

 

[weedeater]

Re: 1st PD engine failure from not using 505.01 oi

it was probably whatever diesel oil these guys carry. Last time I used them for an oil change (MB 190D), I think it was Shell Rotella non-synthetic.

 

[AutoDiesel]

I'm am curious as to how this PD oil issue will play out. All I can say is the value of non PD engines like mine or both of my VW TDI cars will increase. As long as the consumers don't think all TDI's are the same engine. Could be a huge black eye for VW or even a knockout.

And just when VW has decided to get with the program
and finally go with comman-rail.

 

[SUNRG]

I'm am curious as to how this PD oil issue will play out. All I can say is the value of non PD engines like mine or both of my VW TDI cars will increase. As long as the consumers don't think all TDI's are the same engine. Could be a huge black eye for VW or even a knockout.

And just when VW has decided to get with the program
and finally go with comman-rail.

umm, have either of you ever spoken with a PD owner? <u>every</u> single PD owner i know <u>LOVES</u> their TDI.

you think because VW, after 7 years of outstanding PD-TDI sales, decides to go with a more cost effective emissions solution - suddenly your old 90hp car becomes more valuable?

no doubt, future TDIs will be better than either the VE or PD, but their is nothing wrong with either of the earlier designs. PD was a great move for VW. it enabled them to meet E4 emissions standards way before anyone else, and it further established their dominance in the diesel passenger car market.

in the future, i'm confident we'll see an incredible super-turbocharged TDI from VW that will offer record setting diesel emissions, performance and economy standards.

the future of VW and diesel is blindingly bright.

i love the VE TDIs. they're fantastic and i would love to have owned one. i love my PD-TDI. i literally smile just thinking about the car. and i'm sure i will own another incredible TDI in the future. VW got it right with VE, PD and they're now getting it right again. we should all applaud them and applaud ourselves for owning such great cars!

 

[sunline]

As to mileage, my car is now approaching 50,000 miles, runs great, well better than great with RC stage ll. My personel feeling is that these engines are very robust and that to drive one to failure with the incorrect oil would take a long time. My car was run for 30,000 some miles with a conventional synth oil by the previous owner. I will use the 01 oil but we shall see...

 

[mrGutWrench]

(snip) My personel feeling is that these engines are very robust and that to drive one to failure with the incorrect oil would take a long time. (snip)(

__. Yeah, I'm not worried about "failure" with these engines but a *tiny* amount of wear on the cam lobe that drives the PD pump will mean a substantial change in the timing and pressure of the fuel pumped. Don't forget that these components are set up to run in the 29,000 PSI range. I'm not saying that a big negative result is inevitable but these engines have a number of critical factors.
'

 

[Zero10]

Fascinating, I as well would like to see some pictures. Also interesting the arguments that have come out here.
I for one have seen dino 5W-40 oil, it's usually an in-house brand at some of the larger chain stores, but I've seen it. I think as these engines hit the 50k-100k mile mark, we will start to see many more of these engine failures showing up. Although, I do question whether it is directly the result of using non 505.01 oil, or whether a lot of other things factored into it, like lots of short trips, not allowing the engine to warm up, excessive lugging of the engine, etc, all things that would lead to oil deterioration anyways. Might be worth doing oil analysis on what was in the engine when it arrived at the shop.

So, VW just joined the common-rail world? neat-o.

 

[AutoDiesel]

umm, have either of you ever spoken with a PD owner? every single PD owner i know LOVES their TDI

Yep, know two previous PD owners.

One a Touareg V10 owner that was fed up with having to take it in every other week to be fixed. VW had to buy it back for drivability issues that could have been the engine or might not have been. But since VW couldn't figure it out and fix it, a $55k paperweight in his driveway just didn't make any sense to him.

The other was a '04 Passat PD that rarely got over 30mpg and started using that nice expensive PD oil. VW couldn't fix it either, back it went.

Both of them bought different models of Lexus's and have put three times the mileage on their new rigs with ZERO problems.

PD was a great move for VW. it enabled them to meet E4 emissions standards way before anyone else, and it further established their dominance in the diesel passenger car market.

Whoops!
Got that one wrong......

First Diesel Engine to Meet Euro 4 Emission Regs
The new Vauxhall Astra 1.7 CDTi, the first diesel model to meet the stringent Euro 4 emission standard, brings with it better performance, greater running smoothness and greatly reduced exhaust gas pollutants.
The 1686cc 16v 80PS four-cylinder ECOTEC turbo diesel, with two overhead camshafts and common rail direct fuel injection, produces a maximum torque of 170 Nm and a top speed of 108mph in saloon and hatchback models.

Besides, Euro 4 is old news.
The new Euro 5 standards are what they are working towards. I heard VW couldn't do it economically with PD technology and had to convert to common-rail.

Lot's of negative figures.
Shows that VW is again relying on one or two models to get them through and doesn't have a very good mix of models that appeals to the majority of the buying public.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Sorry to take this thread back on topic, but I gotta wonder if the PD owner would have been better off not changing the factory fill at all. 40K is a long time for even synthetic but I bet it wouldn't have killed the engine.

Interesting sales figures. Maybe it's time to get a really good deal on a Phaeton.

 

[Borborygmi]

I think it is fair to question engineering decisions that create such extreme wear points that only the most high tech oil can prevent rapid self destruction.

I also think it is nuts to get your oil changed at a Hurried Lube, without providing your own oil or making sure they have an acceptable call brand.

These kind of incidences are not going to do VW's already poor reliability reputation any good.

 

[diesel_smoke]

Sounds to me VW made a step backwards with the PD engine. Yeah its got all the pretty emission standards and power.

But when it comes to purchasing a used PD, I_would_not_nor_trust a used PD without specific detailed OCI documentation. Very few if any had detailed documentation when I was looking for a diesel.

I guess having the engine inspected and broke down would be the only way for MY piece of mind that a used PD was properly using the correct oil.

To much hastle....

 

[SUNRG]

i think it's important to note that every person bashing PDs on this and all other threads does not own a PD.

the clinical term for this is "PD envy"

 

[mrGutWrench]

(snip) the clinical term for this is "PD envy"

__. Like this grey-haired, broken down, old, thowed out, retired guy who drives slow has often sed "I ain't cuttin' off two inches for anybody!"

'

 

[MikeMpls]

I bought my diesel bug for economy, knowing nothing about PD & non-PD engines at the time.

But with what I've read, I'm glad my 2001 Beetle does not have a PD engine. It appears that VW also has concerns about the PD engine since they will be discontinued as of 2007.

That said, if I'd happened to buy a newer one with a PD engine, I doubt I'd be disappointed.

 

[DrSmile]

My own take on this... 3 years and still VW refuses to open the 505.01 standard and asks insane $ to certify outside synthetic oils. This is just obscene. There is no doubt in my mind that every true SYNTHETIC 5w40 oil would pass any certification test (including Amsoil, Redline, Valvoline and many others). These oils are by their nature superior to dino oil (which is what 505.01 currently is) and would likely provide BETTER protection at a LOWER or at least equivalent price. If I were Amsoil I'd be suing VW by now.

 

[tdijerry]

well i didnt think that any dino oil would meat the 502/505/505.01 spec.

 

[DrSmile]

All the 505.01 oils are mineral oil based. Mineral oil is made from dino oil.