First Drive: 2008 Volkswagen Jetta TDI - Previews

[rjr311]

Im glad that its going to have some more power. I chose to wait it out until the 2008 model. One thing that the article fails to mention is fuel economy, when are we going to get some estimates on this thing?

More power ?

I have an 04 wagon w/2.0L .. It flys.
I'd trade power for economy. I can't get to work any faster with a 0 to 60 less than what I get now. Driving from Kansas to Connecticut at 70 or 75 is just fine.

10% better gas mileage would be more welcome than 10% more power.

Where do you need that "more power"

 

[bhtooefr]

Where do you need that "more power"

VW needs it on the spec sheet, because ZOMG 100 HORSEPOWER IS HORRIBLY UNDERPOWERED.

Seriously, they should just advertise the torque, or list the torque first for only the TDI - that way, the TDI looks much better. Just imagine if the engine choices for the 2006 Jetta were:

2.5
150 horsepower
170 ft-lbs torque

2.0T
200 horsepower
207 ft-lbs torque

TDI
177 ft-lbs torque
100 horsepower

See what I did there? I hid the less desirable spec by listing it last - AND, made people expect that the horsepower number was first, but by the time they got to the TDI, it had changed on them.

 

[rjr311]

I don't disagree w/your logic , I wish/wonder why VW doesn't recognize - witness Toyota/Honda advertising - the desirability of excellent mileage vs those Toyota Tundra "haul 10,000 lbs" ads.

An ad like this -

Voiceover "In 1998 Tom and Sally bought a VW Jetta with an efficient diesel engine. Since then they have saved enough money to travel to Germany where they can see their new car being built and still have enough money for college for their children left over."

With a pile of cash and books sitting next to them.

Saving money is not dull or sinful. You just have to capitalize and market it correctly.

VW needs it on the spec sheet, because ZOMG 100 HORSEPOWER IS HORRIBLY UNDERPOWERED.

Seriously, they should just advertise the torque, or list the torque first for only the TDI - that way, the TDI looks much better. Just imagine if the engine choices for the 2006 Jetta were:

2.5
150 horsepower
170 ft-lbs torque

2.0T
200 horsepower
207 ft-lbs torque

TDI
177 ft-lbs torque
100 horsepower

See what I did there? I hid the less desirable spec by listing it last - AND, made people expect that the horsepower number was first, but by the time they got to the TDI, it had changed on them.

 

[bhtooefr]

An ad like this -

Voiceover "In 1998 Tom and Sally bought a VW Jetta with an efficient diesel engine. Since then they have saved enough money to travel to Mexico where they can see their new car being built and still have enough money for college for their children left over."

With a pile of cash and books sitting next to them.

Saving money is not dull or sinful. You just have to capitalize and market it correctly.

Fixed that for you.

 

[frugality]

Fixed that for you.

LOL "Uno mas Margarita, por favor..."

 

[oilhammer]

My Jetta was built in Germany

 

[tomo366]

2008 Jetta TDI Clean Diesel!
2.0 140 HP 230 Ft pounds Torque

Schweet!!!

 

[Thermo1223]

I already see this "Burn-Off" feature being disabled by one of you Veterans...

Hope they like jail...

 

[Varkias]

2008 Jetta TDI Clean Diesel!
2.0 140 HP 230 Ft pounds Torque

Schweet!!!

Me want's to know more about what they showed you all at the fest. Did anyone get to drive it? What did it sound like? What kind of options? What did the VW folks tell you about the car that we didn't already know?

 

[tomo366]

Fred drove it, Zippy Drove it, and several others got to ride in it.
I pulled my 06 Jetta up next to it and there is no comparison sound wise......
The Man that spoke was a drivetrain engineer and quite German.......
He was really quite secretive he did show pictures of the Exhaust which contains various sensors and particulate traps and filters they will not use Urea unjection on this car
The car is as quiet as most gassers and the guy reved it hard several times and no smoke and doesn't smell like a Diesel either!

This car is a test mule.......one of two and it is a 2006.5 Special Edition Body Grey leatherette,
no nav, just a pretty basic car......He did say they wouldn't decontent the cars any further......
and they should be available as a 50 state car in Spring of next year

 

[diy_fool]

I got to hear it run and tomo is right, it sounds like a gasser. Smelled the exhaust and it is clean, no odor of diesel combustion by products. The engine control and exhaust treatment really work well.

There's no hint of it running a diesel combustion cycle and you wouldn't know it unless told so.

 

[bhtooefr]

Hope they like jail...

It would be as much of an offense as an EGR removal, which MANY people here have done.

I don't think anyone's gone to jail for an emissions offense.

 

[Varkias]

Tomo, that's sweet. Thanks for the info. I'm off to PM Zippy

 

[Thermo1223]

It would be as much of an offense as an EGR removal, which MANY people here have done.

I don't think anyone's gone to jail for an emissions offense.

Ya but the ****'s are in force with 2008 diesel emissions so I think this time around they would care.

Plus it would render the DPF inoperable which is just stupid.

 

[Long_Range]

If you'd like a more realistic scenario.
I can see someone removing the EGR and DPF filter. To save in the garage attic. In order to have a legal operable emissions system to reinstall when it's time to sell the car.
I'd hate to give the Gov any ideas but I can totally see an emission test requirement to register a title. Or used car dealers not allowed to sell a car without meeting standards.

Question is how long do we think these parts will last?

I already know the odds of me forking out $800 for a new EGR is if mine fails.

 

[oilhammer]

I know it is not like this everywhere, but many places including where I live all that stuff needs to be in place and working to pass the inspections.

 

[bhtooefr]

Nothing that dummy ECUs can't fix.

The gasser tuners have already figured some of this out - dummy cats, dummy EGRs, dummy ECUs that say everything's working properly, etc., etc.

 

[oilhammer]

Nothing that dummy ECUs can't fix.

The gasser tuners have already figured some of this out - dummy cats, dummy EGRs, dummy ECUs that say everything's working properly, etc., etc.

Well, RC-equipped cars will not pass our OBD test.

 

[bhtooefr]

I bet, given enough time, money, and software, I could get an RC car to pass.

There would be two OBD ports, though - the original one, now hidden, used to talk to the dummy ECU, feeding sanitized information to the scantool, which is connected to another port, now in the stock location.

 

[Dumanehu]

I bet, given enough time, money, and software, I could get an RC car to pass.
There would be two OBD ports, though - the original one, now hidden, used to talk to the dummy ECU, feeding sanitized information to the scantool, which is connected to another port, now in the stock location.

See! The car hasn't even arrived yet and everybody is ready to take it apart! haha

 

[bhtooefr]

Actually, in that case, I wasn't necessarily talking about a 2008 - I was talking about ANY RC car, as far back as 97. (96 diesels didn't have to be OBD-II, IIRC, so they're exempt from OBD-II emissions testing, even if they have OBD-II, IIRC (like most 96 Passat TDIs.))

 

[vwestlife]

Actually, in that case, I wasn't necessarily talking about a 2008 - I was talking about ANY RC car, as far back as 97. (96 diesels didn't have to be OBD-II, IIRC, so they're exempt from OBD-II emissions testing, even if they have OBD-II, IIRC (like most 96 Passat TDIs.))

OBD-II is for gassers. The equivalent for diesels is OBD-D.

 

[oilhammer]

OBD-II is for gassers. The equivalent for diesels is OBD-D.

Bzzzt! Wrong! OBD-D was, as tooef explained, just on 1996 Passat TDIs. It was also found on some pre-'97 MB products. The rest are full blown OBD2. OBD-D was the diesel version of OBD1, essentially. But OBD2, and any subsequent updates to said SAE protocols, are not fuel-use defining. Even electric cars would now need OBD2, as well as the full blown CAN communication interface.

 

[vwestlife]

Bzzzt! Wrong! OBD-D was, as tooef explained, just on 1996 Passat TDIs. It was also found on some pre-'97 MB products. The rest are full blown OBD2. OBD-D was the diesel version of OBD1, essentially. But OBD2, and any subsequent updates to said SAE protocols, are not fuel-use defining. Even electric cars would now need OBD2, as well as the full blown CAN communication interface.

Quoth VW specs for the 2003 TDI:

VW Mediaroom: 2003 Golf

"OBD D, Tier I, catalytic converter, water-cooled EGR system, onboard refueling vapor recovery (ORVR)"

 

[oilhammer]

Quoth VW specs for the 2003 TDI:

VW Mediaroom: 2003 Golf

"OBD D, Tier I, catalytic converter, water-cooled EGR system, onboard refueling vapor recovery (ORVR)"

Yeah, and that is clearly wrong since diesels do not have EVAP systems like gassers

Go ahead and check any TDI for an evap monitor

Still don't. Diesel does not evaporate like gasoline does. That's why diesel pumps do not have the little "foreskin" on them.

SAE sets the OBD standards, and if you look in VESIS, Bentley, Alldata, Erwin, or any other official manufacturer publication you will see the OBD2 status. You can read all the OBD2 standards and protocols on SAE's website, I forget the exact link. The US EPA is also a big contributor to these protocols, and TDIMeister could better explain all that stuff.

It is really just a matter of semantics, since it really has no bearing on how the system really works other than DTC and component nomenclature, as well as DLC location, CAN/comm protocols, etc. That is why the early OBD-D B4 has some funky differences in its engine management system, as it was not up to the full OBD2 mandate yet.

"OBD" was mandated by the US EPA starting with the '93 model year new light duty vehicles. There was a phase in allowance for some manufacturers for some items. This was why all the carburetted Japanese trucks went away from our shores around that time. The "OBD2" was originally a CARB mandate, but was adopted by the US EPA for model years starting 1996, however again some allowances were made (like the early B4s).

The next big mandate is the CAN communication protocol, which the Germans have had for a long time (CAN is a Bosch term). CAN mandate comes in 2008 or '09, not sure. Most vehicles already have it. Most VAG products sold here got it in 2004. EDC16 does not play nicely with the old "dumbed down" system Volkswagen used, so all US-spec PD cars are CAN.

Here is some basic OBD2 info here:

http://www.obdii.com/background.html

Notice the "January 1, 1996" date. And if you look under the hood of any '97 or newer TDI you will see the words "OBD II certified" However find an early '96 B4 and you WILL see the "OBD-D certified" in place.

 

[bhtooefr]

Actually, technically, the TDIs DO have an ORVR system...

We just... use it for our own purposes (storing fuel, rather than the original (pointless) purpose of storing fuel vapors) by performing the ventectomy.

 

[oilhammer]

Actually, technically, the TDIs DO have an ORVR system...

We just... use it for our own purposes (storing fuel, rather than the original (pointless) purpose of storing fuel vapors) by performing the ventectomy.

Well, what I mean is that there is no vapor recovery cannister, leak detection pump and/or vacuum solenoid connected to the intake, and no pressure sensors on the tank. OBD2 gas cars have all that stuff. And it is a VERY common problem on many cars, especially Nissans, Toyotas, Volkswagens, and GM products.

 

[bhtooefr]

no vapor recovery cannister

Technically, isn't it a vapor canister that we're venting into when we vent? But, yes, none of the other vapor recovery systems.

 

[oilhammer]

Technically, isn't it a vapor canister that we're venting into when we vent? But, yes, none of the other vapor recovery systems.

The diesel has no such vapor cannister like the one I am talking about.

 

[TDIMeister]

I believe oilhammer is right on this one, VW went from OBD-D to OBD-2 starting in 1997. It added some emissions-related monitoring functions required by the EPA.

It has already been shown countless number of times, through examples, not to take all VW-released information as Gospel.