Final Horrifyingly Stupid Question - OCI?

CoryS

Veteran Member
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Dec 28, 2005
Location
PA
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2017 Jetta 1.4T
Hi:
This has been covered and I've already searched. Is there, though, a final word on the first oil change and then the long-term oil change interval (for an '09 TDI)? I've always done 3,000 miles with petroleum based and 5,000 with synthetic (in non-diesel cars).
Might the final word be to do the first change at 1,000 miles and then in 7,500 mile increments? 5,000 mile increments? Most seem to say to stick wiht a 10,000 mile OCI, but my OCD might not allow that.
Thanks and if this post warrants a beating I'll take it like a man.
 

Bob_Fout

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Indiana
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2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
I have a bit of OCD too (dont' we all :D)

Follow the schedule in the owner's manual, but to satisfy your OCD, pull an oil sample at 10K miles for analysis.
 

scooperhsd

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Use the oil specified in your owner's manual and follow the schedule in the owner's manual. I don't care where you live, what driving conditions your car sees - It's NOT as bad as VW tested under, and those lubrication recommendations are their EXPERTS' opinion about what the car needs.
 

megaladon6

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Danbury CT
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2003 Jetta GLS
what is the VW recommended interval? if it's over 6000mi i probably wouldn't follow it. especially since VW had some major oil system problems a few years ago due to a recommended 12K interval, with synthetic. and that was on gas engines, the diesels of course build up a lot more crap.
 

wjdell

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There are several factors to consider. Look at post 21 in the UOA database. He had severe wear when using 505.01 oil. He installed a hour meter and switched to API DEO CJ4. He once again ran 10k and what he discovered is his driving is so slow, that his average speed was 25 mph. It took 400 hours to go 10k. My average speed is 39.4 mph, in 400 hours I accumulate 15700 miles. This can be a long interval, to long for many, and may lead to high wear numbers. His last UOA was at 4000 miles, but 165 hours, the same as if I had traveled 6500 miles. His wear has come down and he will start at 250 to 300 hours, that will be a OCI of 6250 to 7500 miles.
 

Bob_Fout

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wjdell said:
There are several factors to consider. Look at post 21 in the UOA database. He had severe wear when using 505.01 oil. He installed a hour meter and switched to API DEO CJ4. He once again ran 10k and what he discovered is his driving is so slow, that his average speed was 25 mph. It took 400 hours to go 10k. My average speed is 39.4 mph, in 400 hours I accumulate 15700 miles. This can be a long interval, to long for many, and may lead to high wear numbers. His last UOA was at 4000 miles, but 165 hours, the same as if I had traveled 6500 miles. His wear has come down and he will start at 250 to 300 hours, that will be a OCI of 6250 to 7500 miles.
An average speed of 25 MPH for that long might constitute severe service. An average speed of 45 MPH is the "norm".

Did he reach 10K miles or one year first when averaging 25 MPH?
 

scooperhsd

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megaladon6 said:
what is the VW recommended interval? if it's over 6000mi i probably wouldn't follow it. especially since VW had some major oil system problems a few years ago due to a recommended 12K interval, with synthetic. and that was on gas engines, the diesels of course build up a lot more crap.
The real problem was owners NOT using the specified VW502 oil. VW also lowered the OCI to 5000 miles.

In the TDIs, using the specified oils for most (say, 99%+) people for the specified intravals is fine.
 

Diesel_Duster

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Jetta Wagon 2003 Silver: 05 Passat TDI GLS Silver: 04 Golf TDI Beige: 12 Golf Sportwagen High
Have an new 09 TDI SW with over 2,000 km (1,200 miles) in 1 month - checked the oil that was directly from the dealer and it's as clean as a whistle - not like the older diesels that I've owned, that would be black after driving 1 miles - but MUST USE 507.01 ONLY
 

wjdell

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Bob

11 months and Andyh says 40 mph is the average and 10k /40 mph = 250 hours - a normal diesel OCI.
 

40X40

Experienced
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Location
Kansas City area, MO
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2013 Passat SEL Premium
The final word is found in your 2009 Jetta owners manual.

First oil change @ 10,000 miles
Each OC thereafter @ 10,000 miles

507.00 oil ONLY.

Feel free to do an oil analysis any time you like if it will make you feel better.

Bill
 

Bob_Fout

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Ros56 said:
The money you you waste on a oil analysis just change the oil at 5000 miles
Once you have analysis ($20 or so) showing a 10K OCI is fine, you SAVE money compared to changing it every 5K miles at $45 an interval :rolleyes:
 

jaydogg007

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Location
Houston, TX
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09 Jetta TDI
Friendly advice on this one...because I struggled with the same thing:

--> Take some time to search around the posts (particularly mine) and gather some insight on your question. There's knowledge far beyond what your local dealership can tell you.

--> Figure out what brands of 507 spec oil are out there, then decide what you want to use based on looking around at some oil analyses people post.

--> Try to pull an oil sample and post the results for the benefit of those who might have the same question(s) later down the road. A wise middle-aged engineer told me "in God we trust...all others bring data". So please bring your data.

--> After you've researched posts exhaustively, decide on your strategy and roll with it. If your OCD won't allow you to go the full 10K, then change before. Some might think you're wasting your money and/or time....but at the end of the day it's your vehicle, your money and your time. Is there a wrong answer on when to drain/replace the factory fill? Probably, but you've got plenty of time and analysis to figure out if you screwed up.

I've seen the advice of "drive more, worry less" on this forum. That's the best advice out there.

j...
 

whitedog

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I've seen the advice of "drive more, worry less" on this forum. That's the best advice out there.
I have actually changed it to "Make sure you are happy with your drive/worry ratio."

This allows for people to adjust the ratio to what suits them.

It's all about balance. :)
 

CoryS

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Location
PA
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2017 Jetta 1.4T
I think I'm going to go with Total every 7,500 miles. The only remaining question, then, is to do the first change at 1,000 miles or at 7,500.
 

whitedog

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I guess I have more faith in the engineers than some since I would go for the 10,000 mile OCI, but my worry/drive ratio is different than many.

Taking into account your OCI OCD I'm going to bet that you settle on 1000 miles. Be brave and smash through that OCD. Go for the 7500 mile OCI. I have faith that you won't lose too much sleep over it. :D
 

Bob_Fout

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The cure for OCD in this case is hard numbers, like it was for me.
 

jaydogg007

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Location
Houston, TX
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09 Jetta TDI
Thought you had more miles on your car...

CoryS said:
I think I'm going to go with Total every 7,500 miles. The only remaining question, then, is to do the first change at 1,000 miles or at 7,500.
I'm pretty sure the accepted knowledge is to allow the factory fill more than 1000 miles. Please search the forum for some feedback on changing your oil @ 1000 miles.

The 2009 CR Repair Thread might be a good place to start.

j...
 

Ski in NC

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Someone posted an oil analysis from a 2009 with a few k miles on factory fill. The oil was super clean. That supports using the 10k mile change interval. -eric
 

wjdell

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06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
Ros56 - The problem with that is what if you have or develop a coolant leak. Yes the shorter OCI will reduce the damage but its better to discover it, and fix it. UOA's can also reveal other problems.

I am at the point were OCi's will get longer. I know by UOA that my car goes 8k no problem, my average speed is 39.2 as of today. I will go up around 10k, but will actually change by hours, not miles. I have a by-pass filter and feel I can get maximum performance of the oil. I doubt I will return to a VAG oil. I will still do a UOA now and then to make sure all is well. In the future they will make a better GRP III+ oil. They say it will be as good and in some ways better than GRP IV. I understand that several refiners are already producing this GRP III+ base oil. If I go above 10k I will probably go with DEO oil. I have a feeling this oil may outperform Delvac. I am waiting to see a ISO Code on a VOA of Amsoil DEO. The best performance in a ALH is a guy over at bitog. He mixes oils which I am leary of trying. His last UOA would be number 1 in the UOA database but he is not a member. He uses Royal Purple truck oil mixed with Redline.
 

TornadoRed

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When my Golf was new, the first scheduled oil change was at 5k miles. Now I know that I could have skipped that oil change -- even in those days the first OC was 10k miles or 16k kilometers in Europe. I think the whole idea behind the 5k service was to get more customers into VW service departments.
 

Bob_Fout

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Indiana
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2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
TornadoRed said:
When my Golf was new, the first scheduled oil change was at 5k miles. Now I know that I could have skipped that oil change -- even in those days the first OC was 10k miles or 16k kilometers in Europe. I think the whole idea behind the 5k service was to get more customers into VW service departments.
LSD was still prevalent back then, and oils were not of the same specs they are today. Perhaps manufacturing too.
 

whitedog

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Bob_Fout said:
LSD was still prevalent back then, and oils were not of the same specs they are today. Perhaps manufacturing too.
Are you saying that tornadoRed was stoned at the time?
 

Drivbiwire

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CoryS said:
I think I'm going to go with Total every 7,500 miles. The only remaining question, then, is to do the first change at 1,000 miles or at 7,500.
STOP STOP STOP!

The ORIGINAL factory APPROVED oil change interval is 30,000 miles! YES 30,000 MILES!!

Did you comprehend that?

THE ORGINAL OIL CHANGE INTERVAL APPROVAL IS 30,000 MILES!!!

Now that I have that off my chest,

VW reduced the interval from 30,000 miles to 10,000 miles in the US market...any guesses why?

Because people like you either:
1) Can't read the owners manual
2) Don't trust the car makers
3) Can't follow directions
4) Fail to adhere to the service indicator in the car

VW does NOT want oil change intervals of less than 10,000 miles due to how the oils function in the engine, shorter intervals INCREASE WEAR, Don't argue with me about it, if you take the time to track wear rates during an oil change at 250 mile intervals you can plot the reduction and stabilization of the wear rates out beyond 25,000 miles!

Think of oil as having 2 types of wear reducing additives, the first provides protection by/thru detergancy (cleansing of internal surfaces), dispersing soot, neutralizing acids (not an issue now with ULSD), and several other types as well. These additives are generally very specific to diesel engines and must pass specific tests in VW Diesel engines.

The next type of additive is a wear additive. These protect the engine where the thickness of oil may be too thin to prevent metal to metal contact. Other additves in this type range also provide protection to the cam and lifters, engine bearings, piston wrist pins etc.

Now pay attention, the 2nd group of additives account for less than 3% of the total volume of the oil. These additives also account for 90% of the engines oil protection! These additives require heat and pressure to bond with the critical wear surfaces, but due to the low percentage of additive in the oil they require time to fully place on those surfaces by the pressures of the component they are protecting. Example, an engine at operating temperature at the point where the cam presses on the lifter generates in excess of 90,000 psi, that pressure and the heat of the engine causes the 3% portion of the 1 micron thick oil film to form a crust or sacrifical layer at the point of contact. Since only 3% of the oil contains the wear additives, it requires hundreds of thousands of passes to generate a sufficient film to stop the wear at this specific point in the engine.

Everybody is quick to make the arguement that the old oil had these additives so they are already in place, right? not quite!

Remember the first type of additive? In that 1st group you had "detergents" that cleanse the inside of the motor. These cleansers are used up very rapidly after an oil change since they attack the remaining oil that was left after the oil change. These cleansers if you will also reduce the effectiveness of the high pressure wear additives...See where this is going?

Before explaining further, after that initial period the dispersants in the oil work to prevent the adhering of the particles in the oil to any of the internal surfaces. These additives are often unique to diesel engines are also the reason why the oil looks so black so quickly, they are doing their job by preventing the soot from building up in any one place instead they are dispersed in the oil evenly throughout the oil sump which prevents sludging and other contamination related issues.

Back to the detergents and the high pressure additives, the layers of high pressure additives leftover are not being replenished after the oil change due to the cleaning process that is going on with the new oil to neutralize the remaining acids, and other contaminants in the engine. As the cleaners in the oil are used up in the first 500-1000 miles, the wear additives are able to re-generate a protective layer in the engine that stops the wear at that location.

You break down the oils life cycle like this:

Phase 1: Detergants attack the internals removing accumlated contaminants, neutralize acids and force those into suspenstion in the oil. This period of time lasts between 500-1000 miles

Phase 2: During the first 1000 miles the oils viscosity provides the majority of the wear protection by virtue of the film it creates on the surfaces. This phase generates relatively high wear rates but due to the short duration this is accepted due to the removal of contaminants that could result in long term damage to the motor. Wear rates in the period of time are generally speaking 5-10ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 3: Detergents are now used up and the oil additives are forming their protective layers in the "extreme pressure" regions of the motor. Now the oil additives are working in conjunction with the oil film and the wear rates drop from 10ppm per 1000 miles to around 1-2ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 4: Longterm peace! The oil is operating in a period of equilibrium, the wear additives are placed, Oil viscosity is in perfect range for the engine, Dispersants are continually working to prevent soot and other contaminants from accumulating on the surfaces and wear rates remain between 1-3ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 5: Oil run out, the oil during this phase begins to increase in viscosity (or thin in some cases), Extreme pressure additives begin to lose effectiveness due to increased concentrations of wear particles (VW tests out to 8%, most oil changes never see in excess of 2% after 30,000 miles). This is when you begin to see a rise in the wear metal formation in the engine. Often wear metals during this phase rise to the 3-8ppm per 1000 mile range. Notice that the wear metals being generated are still LOWER than they were in the first 1000 miles?

--------------------------------------------------------------

When somebody says they are going to change the oil every 5000 miles or twice as often they are DOUBLING the number of detergent cycles and DOUBLING the number of cycles where the engine is running at it's highest wear rates!

PPM/Fe (generation of Fe in 1000 mile increments)
Short drain intervals
1K oil change
10ppm = 10ppm in 1000 miles = 10ppm/1000 miles

3K oil change
10+2+2 = 14ppm in 3000 miles = 4.6ppm/1000 miles

5K oil change
10+2+2+2+2: Change oil = 18ppm in 5000 miles = 3.6ppm/1000 miles

Long drain intervals
10K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3 = 29 ppm in 10,000 miles = 2.9ppm/1000 miles

15K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+3+3+3+3+3 = 44ppm in 15,000 miles = 2.9 ppm/1000 miles

20K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+4+4 = 61ppm in 20,000 miles = 3.3ppm/1000 miles

When ppm of Fe per 1000 miles reaches 5-7ppm per 1000 miles you can consider the oil ready for a change...

The above is based on real world TDI oil samples.

I have personally used up to 25,000 mile oil drain intervals on my TDI and still never reached the 5-7ppm range! I changed it at that time due to soot and TBN depletion (high sulfur fuel at the time).

Anybody that tells you that short oil drain intervals are good for your motor don't know what they are talking about!

DB
 
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whitedog

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Bend, Oregon
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2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
At what PPM does FE get flagged? My Jetta was flagged as Abby Normal at 66PPM but I'm not sure what the bottom threshold is for flagging it.
 

Bob_Fout

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Pete, your post needs to be stickied, or framed, or something :D
 

Dimitri16V

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scooperhsd said:
The real problem was owners NOT using the specified VW502 oil. VW also lowered the OCI to 5000 miles.
THE real problem is the 1.8T engine was running hot like most VW engines.
I have seen Passat 1.8T with 5K intervals and 5W-40 syn with 120K and the engine is sludged.
 
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