FAQ? One side signal/marker lights stuck on, after locking/arming

[l_c]

Turn Signal gets STUCK ON, after using Key (or Remote) to Lock or Unlock doors!

This issue has been Identified and Resolved (Fixed) (11-Apr-2008), read through to latest post. Also rewriting / cleaning up this first post ...

UPDATE, Feb 2016: See THIS POST for an overview of approaches that might be taken

(Adding) Background Information:

On this (ALH / 2002) model, the Right and Left turn signals each have an Indicator on the driver's Instrument Panel (i.e. in the dash "cluster" aka the IP); each of those lights also connects with exterior lights (Front, Side, and Rear of vehicle), one set each (Right and Left).

When the driver uses the Turn Signal (Stalk Switch, i.e. the switch which is on the Steering column), the turn signals are driven (switched On and Off) by a relay module which is located at (the rear portion of) the Hazard Light switch. It is possible to have problems arise from either the Turn Signal Stalk Switch, or from the Hazard / Turn Signal Relay. (More likely the stalk switch ... subject of several other forum posts.)

The subject of this forum thread however is that — The Turn (Signal and Indicator) lights are also driven (switched On and Off) by another source ... the Central Control Module for Comfort System (aka the Comfort CCM). If you look at the A4/ALH Wiring Diagrams, in the Comfort System wiring diagram, on the page having title "Central control module for comfort system, antitheft warning system, antenna wire for central locking and antitheft warning system", this driving connection can be seen as pins 13 and 14 of the CCM drive wire nos. 2 and 18 of the IP control module, and also drive nodes A5 and A6 (which are the Turn Signal Lights). The official VW/Bentley wiring diagram does not, however, show us anything about what is inside the CCM itself, at these two terminals. It so happens that the Turn Signal Lights/Indicators are driven by a 5-terminal, twin-contact 12V relay.

When you use either the Key, or the Remote Control (fob) to either lock/arm or unlock/disarm the locking/alarm system, the CCM blinks all of the turn signal and side marker/indicator lights, as acknowledgment. But if the blinking action by the CCM does not finish (return to low-potential) properly, those lights will remain fixed in the "On" (burning) position, which is a terrible situation (current drain, melting lenses, burning the bulb filaments. If you happen to notice it occur, you can repeat the lock or unlock, several times, until it finally switches off. In my case, as this problem got worse, it would eventually require up to 10 or more repetitions until the light circuit would successfully turn "off". On my vehicle, one contact (or "pole") in the CCM twin-contact output relay has been tending to become stuck "on", when the ambient temperature is warm (or, when the vehicle isn't cold), thus making the driver's-side lights remain stuck lit (on). Never when actually using the turn signals; only by CCM lock/unlock. By the way, when it gets "stuck", you cannot use the turn signal of that direction (right/left), since the node is driven high by the CCM relay.

Check below (to the final post) to see how I finally resolved/repaired the issue. Thanks; Larry C.
__________________________________________________________
(Apr 2007) I've seen references (on TDIClub and/or VWVortex) a couple of times about this issue; have now spent hours trying to retrieve a post, and can't seem to find it --

On occasion, I lock (arm) the Jetta Wagon (2002 ALH) using the remote, neglect to look closely enough at the car, then later on when I return to the vehicle I find that the left (driver's) side marker lights / turn signal indicators are stuck on (lit), and feel a bit hot.

If I unlock/disarm using the remote, then they go back to normal. In all other respects, this vehicle locks/unlocks/arms/disarms without a problem. I replaced my front door lock modules a couple of years back (due to microswitch issues), and have also done the turn signal stalk switch (and flasher module) about 3 years ago. (All three lights remain lit -- front, side, rear.) (It would not likely be a brake light switch issue, I believe.)
So, I would search for "stuck on", "stays lit", "one side", whatever. For some reason, I can't seem to locate any topics relating to this issue now. Sorry to open a new topic but, does anyone know about this issue, and would it be a relay module, or else something in ECM/CCM (I doubt it)? Thanks; Larry.
p.s. JeffBrom asked the same basic question in the 101 forum here

 

[l_c]

It did it repeatedly, yesterday ... once at night, then again in the morning, upon arming.

The lights are exactly the same (on the driver's side) as the turn signal blinking, but I believe that the method of blinking is a bit different. Funny thing, one time when it got stuck, I pressed the lock button on the remote (to un-stick it) and it didn't even budge, in other words it took a couple of presses to un-stick it.

I think that arming is one blink, and disarm is 2 blinks, which is why pressing the unlock button would tend to un-stick the condition. If this is un-solveable, I would consider trying to set the comfort/convenience module to beep the horn but not blink the lights (if that is a possible setting).

I tend to agree that a ground connection may be a potential culprit, but I have no idea about which ones to look at. Larry

 

[l_c]

The other day, I was driving around and didn't realize that the driver's side signal lamps were stuck on. I noticed when I tuned on my left turn signal that it didn't blink -- the left-arrow indicator in the instrument panel was just on solidly, no blinking ... and no clicking from the flasher relay. I had to use the remote to unstick the problem. I thought it was interesting that when the problem occurs, the flasher relay doesn't cycle as it would normally. Larry

 

[l_c]

The problem has gotten really bad lately. I know for sure that when it gets stuck, all three signal lamps on the driver's side, as well as the green arrow in the instrument cluster, are stuck on (lit); then the turn signal won't work to the left (just clicks once), but works to the right; and the hazard flasher won't cycle (just clicks one cycle).

I've looked at the schematic diagrams in my Bentley book, several times, but haven't yet located the override connection between the Comfort/Control system and those three lamps (plus the arrow indicator on the panel). If/when I find it, I want to trace it back to its driver element (and take things from there). Larry

 

[l_c]

I think what I was looking for is on wiring diagram #56, page 16 (at least for my 2002 wagon), this is called "Comfort System (vehicles with power windows)" (from May 2001), and on page 16 there is a connection between module J393 (CCM for comfort system) and module J285 (indicator unit, in instrument panel) ... A6 is called "Plus connection (left turn signal), in instrument panel wiring harness".

The reason I have been focusing on the culprit being in the instrument panel area is, when I sit in the driver's seat and use the remote to arm/disarm, as the indicator lights flash, I can hear what sounds like an electromagnetic relay cycling (faint tapping sound), for each "flash" ... coming from the instrument panel (behind the gauges). No sound or light from the direction of the Hazard flasher relay (front center of dash).

If/when I find that A6 wire, I can place a probe on it, verify that it gets stuck active, and then try temporarily disconnecting it from one module or the other (J285 or J393). That might even become a workaround, instead of replacing a module. This problem has gotten worse and worse, it's really really annoying of late.

For a while, I thought that it had a greater tendency to get stuck in active ("on") state, after heating up (temperature rise); that still may be true, but lately (despite the climate getting colder), it's been happening more frequently, after driving. Larry

 

[l_c]

CCM issue / one pole of the relay sticking?

I finally decided to attack my electrical issue since it's been getting so bad lately, i.e. on any arm or disarm, the lights get stuck on in steady-burn state.

I didn't fully understand how the CCM relay drives the signal/marker lights for a long time ... confused myself from the wiring diagram. But, luckily the connection is pretty simple — the relay output appears to simply drive the entire signal/marker light group, by forcing the A5 and A6 lines (via pins 13 and 14 in the CCM's 15-pin connector).

Good news is, I had no problem in taking out the Comfort CCM, and I found the relay (for pins 13 & 14) that has one pole sticking when warm. (See picture, it's the tall relay at left.) Contact tack welding?? I wonder; Or else, perhaps the coil voltage strays too far??

Instead of getting a replacement CCM for about $200, I'm looking at replacing or doing something to just the relay (V23072-C1059-A208, aka Tyco 5-1419137-2 I believe).

Oddly, since I fiddled with the CCM and left the board exposed (past day-and-a-half), the failure mode hasn't returned. I hope that's because the relay is a bit cooler now (and not just from me re-seating the CCM connectors a few times). Will post an update here, once I get it resolved. Larry

 

[l_c]

It's definitely that relay

Now I can say for sure, that relay is the culprit — the car was parked in a warm area and the CCM warmed up somewhat ...then when
I unlocked the vehicle, those lights got stuck on. Since I've left the board exposed now, I used my fingernail to give a little rap
against the case of that relay; and it let go, shut off like normal. If I get a can of freeze-spray or at least canned compressed air,
I could try that experiment as well. Larry

 

[ninedee_golf_tdi]

You are truly a one man electrical repair specialist.

 

[l_c]

I write too many words, and haven't actually done a lot of action. This stupid problem has simply bugged the !@#$@#$% out of me. Before I was too familiar with it, it melted the interior of the lens of the driver's side marker light.

I didn't have too much time to chase it down, since I have been kept busy fixing various other fun little things on this car — door lock modules; turn signal stalk switch; make-up mirror (vanity) lights; Glow Plug harness issues; Intake/EGR cleaning; dead horn (that I finally upgraded); oh, let's not forget the Fuel Injection Pump Head Seal (gasket) failure / DIY repair job. (Aside from routine maintenance items in the engine area ...) And now, as of this week I spent over $4000 to get the transmission/flywheel/clutch fixed!! (Due to wear and tear; I have seen first-hand that the 02J/EGR transmission package is really not all that strong ... I only made it 133k miles

I haven't done an efficient / concise job on this issue, but it feels much better that I located that D@#$@#$MN RELAY !! Thanks; Larry.

 

[l_c]

Stuck Turn Signal Light/Indicator problem is now FIXED.

It's fixed. I was able to purchase some of the V23072-C1059-A208 relays, through on online distributor; this was lucky, I found two sources that offered direct purchase online. But both stores impose a 30 USD minimum order ... so I went ahead and bought four pieces; plus sales tax and shipping, I spent over 44 USD. (I think that vendor has already increased the price, after my order went through The item description actually says "P&B Tyco / Electronics"; I now know that P&B is Potter & Brumfield (that line is owned/marketed by Tyco Electronics).

I would like to sell a couple of the extra (unneeded) relays, to members of the greater/online community — So, In case you need a V23072-C1059-A208 relay, please PM me!! Note: The Comfort CCM on my 2002 vehicle is VW Part Number 1C0 959 799 C.

You will need three sizes of Torx driver (bits), in order to remove the dash panels and the CCM: T20, T25, and T30 (the single T30 is the one that holds the CCM bracket to the dash chassis). Also, for desoldering and soldering, suggest either a spring-loaded vacuum desoldering tool (I think that's easier), or else the braided solder-absorbing wick (I think that's not quite as easy or fast); solder, and a soldering iron ... and it's good to have some flux remover (solvent), to clean that area of the board after you're done desoldering and again after soldering in the new relay. Another thing: Use a pair of cutters (nippers) to trim the protruding leads of the original relay, where they poke/extend thru the PCB, then after that it's a bit easier to suck out the old solder.

I de-soldered the wonky (sticking) relay from the CCM board, soldered in a new relay, reassembled/reattached everything, and this issue is fixed, done, and working fine now. When I get a chance, I'll post one or two more photographs here. If you're interested in this issue, please read the first (initial) post above, since I updated it to include some easier-to-read background information.

Here's one photograph, showing the original (at left) relay, alongside the replacement, before I installed/soldered the replacement component into its place. You can also see (at rear) the board location where the 5-pin relay will be replaced:

Larry

 

[l_c]

V23072-c1059-a208

One more thing about the Relay in question — I was able to obtain the specifications of the V23072-C1059-A208 relay ("sealed, twin make contact" "Mini power relay K") from Tyco; if any electrical-savvy people need some of those details, let me know and I can email you more info. Larry

 

[Dennis1979]

Very nice!!

I have the same problem here in The Netherlands. Tommorrow (if it's dry weather) I'll check the comfort CCM if there's also the V23072-C1059-A208 relais in the inside.

@ Larry, I was not able to find the relais for sale on the internet. If I have the same comfort CCM as you have, is it possible for me to buy an relais from you?? (I'll send you a PM tomorrow).

Dennis

 

[Dennis1979]

Unfortunately is my comfort module different ans has a smaller print is smaller than the one on the picture above (maybe there is a difference between an European comfort modules and US comfort module. Also there's another relais on mine: V23086 C1002 A403

Tomorrow I'll try to post a picture. I think I have to search a store where I can buy a new relais...

 

[l_c]

Comfort CCM (ASV versus ALH?)

Hi Dennis, I did not have any familiarity with the ASV models (here in North America we have seen mainly ALH). I know that you must have a more powerful engine but I didn't know that the Comfort CCM was so different.

Well, with any luck we can apply the same fix (general approach) to your car's situation. I looked on the internet, and the relay part number that you mentioned is still supported by Tyco Electronics, have a look at the following link — Tyco Part Number 1-1393280-1, aka V23086-C1002-A403
Their information specifies the relay type is "Contact Arrangement = 1 Form C, SPDT, 1 C/O"; apparently this is a "Changeover Contact" configuration, meaning that pins 3 and 5 are the dual/two "throws", as opposed to form "A" which is a single "Make Contact" (pin 5). By the way, this relay is smaller and has a different pin outline than the one in the ALH vehicle (and, it's not a Twin-Contact relay), so there's no practical way to apply one relay into the other CCM type.

** Funny, I'm looking at the datasheet (downloadable from Tyco Electronics) "ENG_DS_V23086-X0000-A001_E.pdf", on page 7 (page 117 of the Catalog), it says that the V23086-**002-**** has only 10V of Rated Coil Voltage. But the specification page on their website says that the Nominal Coil Voltage is 12 VDC. La de da! Huh?? **

Are you quite certain that this relay is the one which supplies high voltage to the side, front, and rear lights when those lights blink after you use the key/fob to lock/unlock (arm/disarm)? Just making sure ... Larry.

 

[Dennis1979]

Thank you for your help..

Here's a picture of my comfort module. I've noticed that the print is smaller than your's.

I don't know for sure if this relais is the one who makes the lights blink when using the remote controller. The relais is on the same spot than the photo you took from your ccm..

Due family circumstances (grandma died) I'm not able to put much time in the problem. Next weekend I've got time to get under the dashboard again (if the weather is not raining...), I will check if this relais is clicking when I open or lock the car with the remote control.

---
edit: My car doesn't have an original remote controller..... The remote controller I have is from an alarm (Metasystems). Maybe this relais triggers another relais who blinks the lights. I'll check this out.
---

 

[l_c]

ASV CCM blinker

Hey, thanks for posting that picture, Dennis. I'm sorry to hear about your loss. The photograph does suggest that you identified the correct relay, correctly!

The way I cross-referenced the connection on my CCM (just to be absolutely "sure") was that: I obtained the correct wire/terminal numbers, from the Bentley/VW wiring diagram ... and then I looked closely at those two wire positions on the CCM's edge connector, and noticed that they connected directly to two relay pins on that particular Tyco relay. It makes sense that the designer positioned the blinker relay very close to the connector, at that corner of the PC Board.

(It goes without saying that we don't want to remove the sticking relay, until we have a brand-new replacement part in hand. Also, for those of us who are replacing PCB-mounted components, it must be remembered that the desoldering & removal must be done very gently ... one must never damage the board traces, pads, or any through-hole plating!)

I'll try to retrieve the 2002 MkIV ASV CCM wiring diagram (from the 'net), and if I see anything interesting, will post back here. Larry

 

[Dennis1979]

The problem with the turning lights (the turning lights on the right side of the car) is getting worse and worse now.... I have the problem almost once a day (also due the summer, the ambient temperature in the car is going up, it's 40 degrees Celsius in the car now).


Yesterday and this morning I found a few things out:

- On my car (with aftermarket alarm (Meta Systems M999 class 2) the comfort module does NOT blink the lights.

- In the alarm module there's a relais (also a Tyco relais) who blinks the lights. The number is "Tyco V23072 C1061-A208"

Next week I'll go searching for a shop who sells this relais. Then I'll replace the relais.

 

[l_c]

Re: V23072-C1061-A208

Wow, that's really good work; good information, Dennis. This is one more case of the relay contacts causing a terribly annoying problem!!

So now the question I ask is, what is the difference between the Tyco relay numbers V23072-C1059-A208 and V23072-C1061-A208 ?
Based on my limited experience in this area, I think that they are almost the same relay, but the coil specifications differ — the coil voltages and the coil resistance; but I don't yet know how much, whether it is a significant difference.

A brutal intermittent/quick fix would be to simply desolder and remove that sticking relay. But I think this situation is not quite that extreme ... until it worsens to the extent where you simply can't get the lights to remain off(!)

I'm going to submit this question to Tyco; they were able to give me specs on the C1059 coil version, so surely the C1061 coil version should be easy to determine. Will post back here after I get an answer; Larry.

 

[l_c]

V23072-c1061-a208

The standard datasheet from Tyco does cover the V23072-C1061- A308 and A408 part numbers, but not the A208.
So, I've asked their support person to explain the difference ... will post here. Larry

 

[Dennis1979]

Thanks Larry!!

I also found something out: I found a distributor who imports Tyco electronic products here in The Netherlands and I´ve send them an email ; they told me that the part number V23072-C1061-A208 is not produced anymore...

Also I found out first number in A208 means the materials of the contact in the relais:

- 2 means ?? (i was unable to find a datasheet for the A208)
- 3 means AgNiO.15
- 4 means AgSnO2

Maybe.., maybe it's possible that Tyco used a material (2) for the contacts inside that's causing the sticky relais!! Therefore part A208 is not produced anymore by Tyco or Siemens.

 

[l_c]

A208 relays

Dennis, I have the specifications of the -A208 Tyco relay; those contacts are made of "Silver-Nickel". More detail about that — (hmm, I don't see Ag listed)

Coil-Contacts: Cu Ni 18 ZN 20 F41
Armature R Fe 120
Stationary Contact Cu Sn 4
Spring Cu Be 2​

They are telling me that these relays are the same, aside from the coil electrical specs (C1059 versus C1061).
It looks to me like they ought to be compatible. I think one type just has slightly tighter specs.
(Pls. check your PM Inbox) Larry

 

[Dennis1979]

So.. likely we have the problem that there is no coil suppression in the schematic / printed circuit board...

Good news that the relais C1059 and C1061 may be compatible, you have a PM ;-)

Maybe we could add a zener diode or something else to the relais or pcb to make sure the problem doesn't happen in the future.. (or remove a part from the pcb if in case the pcb uses a improper coil suppression)

 

[mittzlepick]

relays english/american relais/netherlands ? dennis does vw over there need the key fob/key to open the trunk or does vw have push buttons on the newer models like the older models? I would like to convert my 2004 to old school push button keyless opening for the rear hatch. I just don't understand the backslide to needing a key in hand to get in the rear hatch it was so much easier the just leave it unlocked and push a button to get in the trunk or hatch.

 

[l_c]

V23072-C1059-A208 versus -C1061-

I received word from Tyco yesterday, to answer whether the V23072-C1059-A208 relay can be substituted into the application which uses V23072-C1061-A208 —

Per the Product Engineer, there is a slight difference in the coil resistance. They can be interchanged.

So that seems handy. Now, I'll supply here the specifications that I have, about the coil characteristics —

[B]V23072-C1059-A208[/B] (@ 23 °C coil temp.)
Coil resistance: 107Ω (± 10%)
Max. operate voltage: 6V
Min. release voltage: 1.2V
Nominal power consumption W 1.3

[B]V23072-C1061-A208[/B]
Coil Resistance: 130Ω (± 10%)
Must Operate Voltage: 6.9V
Must Release Voltage: 1.2V
Nominal power consumption: 1.1W

[B][I]Same figures for both part numbers:[/I][/B]
Rated Coil Voltage: 12V
Operate time (typ.): 3 msec
Release time (typ.): 1.5 msec
Ambient temperature range: -40 °C to +85 °C

Larry.

 

[l_c]

If you are replacing your relay on the controller board ...

For those folks who are going to attempt to remove their sticking relay, without damaging the Comfort CCM circuit board, and who may not have had much experience with desoldering / soldering this sort of component:

I's not super-easy to de-solder and remove the old relay, since some of the terminals are connected to power/ground on the board, and those planes or buses absorb a lot of heat from the iron.

You need a fairly hot iron or hot "tip" (I use a portable, butane-powered iron, I can turn up the heat pretty high), and preferably a vacuum plunger ("sucker"); but at the same time you must take care not to over-heat the board traces/pads. That means, don't apply high heat for very long (i.e. not more than about 10 seconds at a time!) to any of the pads on the board (or to any of the relay terminals). If you burn a trace, or destroy a solder pad, the board may become a bit ruined.

After all of the solder appears to be gone, the component still won't be loosened. So I used a very slim screwdriver blade (you can try the point/tip of a knife blade too), underneath the edge of the relay, just to GENTLY "nudge" it as I re-heated (one at a time) each of the terminals — then, the relay separated from the board (a bit at a time).

After it was gone, I applied a bit of solder to some of the pads (and sucked that out again), and applied some flux remover (solvent) to make sure everything was clean on the board.

Then, insert your new relay, hold it firmly in place while you solder a couple of the terminals from the reverse side (under-side) of the board. DON'T FLOW TOO MUCH SOLDER!! If you make a big blob or a little puddle, just use your solder remover (preferably a vacuum, spring-loaded plunger tool ... or else, you use the braid/wick) to take away the excess. Solder the remaining pads (terminals) for the relay, and once you're done, use a pair of nippers (cutters) to trim away the excess length of those terminal leads. (i.e. trim the stubs which are sticking out ... this is a tidy practice.) Hope this helps someone; Larry

 

[Dennis1979]

I changed the relais (thanks to l_c...) last week and it works very good! Problem solved!


Dennis

 

[Tume79]

V23072-C1059-A208 and V23072-C1061-A208

My two cents for this... atleast on my alarm system the 1059 is for disabling the ignition. Even though it is of different model etc... I have this C1061 relay broken and was trying to find out where to buy new one for it. (Same part number but from Siemens)

I live in Finland and it seems horribly frustrating trying to find a replacement relay. But now the "componentstore" is ordering these, but it'll take couple of weeks for them to get some.

I can report my results when I get the replacement.

I have another problem with the alarm also, no sound even though it seems that there's no other components broken... but I'll guess there must be since not even a slightest buzz comes out of it.

BR,T

Wow, that's really good work; good information, Dennis. This is one more case of the relay contacts causing a terribly annoying problem!!

So now the question I ask is, what is the difference between the Tyco relay numbers V23072-C1059-A208 and V23072-C1061-A208 ?
Based on my limited experience in this area, I think that they are almost the same relay, but the coil specifications differ — the coil voltages and the coil resistance; but I don't yet know how much, whether it is a significant difference.

A brutal intermittent/quick fix would be to simply desolder and remove that sticking relay. But I think this situation is not quite that extreme ... until it worsens to the extent where you simply can't get the lights to remain off(!)

I'm going to submit this question to Tyco; they were able to give me specs on the C1059 coil version, so surely the C1061 coil version should be easy to determine. Will post back here after I get an answer; Larry.

 

[l_c]

Tume79, have you tested the alarm horn itself? I had a vw-original klaxon that completely failed
Larry

 

[bjodas]

V23072-C1059-A208 relays

I need one V23072-C1059-A208 relay.
could you pls give the price for shipping it to Norway.

 

[l_c]

V23072-C1059-A208 to you

bjodas, Send me your information (name & street address) via Private Message (PM), and I'll post to you one V23072-C1059-A208.

I'm working now and have received 4 paychecks, so I don't think the 11 USD plus post charge is going to make much difference.

There were two people on vwvortex.com who said they wanted one, and I sent them "IM" but they didn't respond. So, I'll send this one to you. Larry