Fallen Engine

[brucetmoose]

Dealer just agreed to replace ALL engine mount bolts on all 3 mount assemblies

The dealer is replacing all TTY bolts on all 3 mount assemblies ( Engine, Transmission, and Pendulum ) at their expense plus the use of a rental car at their expense when the parts come in sometime later this week.

HOPEFULLY none of the others will break before then. They are thinking the problem occurred when the engine was pulled and put back in after the accident, but the TB was done after that also (about 20k later) and I suspect that's when it happened.

Point being - they couldn't prove they didn't re-use them.

And yes, I'm still VERY VERY concerned. My point to them was "What else did you do or not do that is going to cause issues and how can I trust you anymore if you got this issue wrong?".

Obviously, no one is double checking the work and parts list. Hmmm, maybe that's why the mechanic left - either it was his lack of knowledge OR he was told to re-use them. Either way, if I was them, I'm out of there in a hurry. If a mechanic is giving away free hours and he's not getting paid, then I can see why he/she left.

I'm no mechanic, but at least I can RTFM (and often do for my work because given the large set of knowledge base for my job, it's easy to miss something and it's a LOT easier to look it up at the start).

In my case, what has helped me immensely is the fact I got the "Gold Plate Special" extended warranty from Easy Care. Those people have to be having a fit by now. BTW, they didn't cover this, I don't think the dealer even ATTEMPTED to try and have it covered. However, should I call them and tell them what happened ???

I think we should start a thread for the 2006 TDI fest entitled "Name what will happen from now till September for Bruce T. Moose's car" and also name the $ amount of the repairs. Closest to # of events and $'s each wins a case of beer/soda of their choice (2 prizes, could be won by same person). Tiebreaker - will Bruce T. Moose actually have his car at the fest or will it be in the repair shop at the time?

 

[jasonTDI]

Bruce,

I'd be really concerned since the tensioner smacks into the inner ount when this happens and that bends the shaft causing misalignment issues. I'd really want a new belt, tensioner, and tensioner shaft at a minimu. Plus the intake hose.

I've fixed a few of the broken mount issues. They said it was a broken bolt but is the rear top mount point intact?

 

[brucetmoose]

Jason - ditto - that's why I want someone else to go over the car

Jason brought up a very good point - I'm sure that the fallen engine messed up something, maybe even more than he mentioned.

Time to hire a lawyer at this point ???

 

[jasonTDI]

Make them warrant the TB in writing for another 12K miles/12 months. That way if there is a problemm they are liable. Get it inspected somewhere else.

 

[Windjammer]

My point to them was "What else did you do or not do that is going to cause issues and how can I trust you anymore if you got this issue wrong?".

I'm not sure you can trust them. I just replaced the coolant pipe o-ring on my 2000 Jetta. To do this you must disconnect the turbo oil feed line. When you do this there are 2 copper crush washers on the banjo fitting. The manual says always replace. There are 4 vw dealers around me. 3 didn't stock them at all. What do these dealers use when they do this job. My bet is they reuse them. The 4th dealer was shocked that he found them in the parts room. Never had anyone ask for them.

2 weeks ago I would have said I'm going to have the dealer maintain my 2 06's. No way now. I'll do it myself thank you very much.

 

[brucetmoose]

I lodged an official complaint with VW Customer Care today

Because I was "mis-informed" about the bolts, I lodged an official complaint about everything that has happened at the dealership, from the 3 times they put the wrong oil in to the engine bolt issue with VW Customer Care this afternoon.

All the woman kept on saying was "And there's more ????". They also assured me this was NOT their idea of quality car care.

In case they are listening in, I'm not going to say what I'm going to settle for, but I can assure you it's a lot more than an additional 12k on the TB. The extended warranty alone is in effect for another 20k.

The extended warranty is having an interesting effect. On the one hand it's saving me a lot of money. However, it also has the side effect of them not worrying about the quality aspect because "Easy Care" will cover it. What ticks me off also is that the rentals they keep on giving me are gas guzzlers. The Amanti (not an Altamont - sorry, couldn't remember at the time) got an AVG of 22.something - I paid $20 to go about 100 miles. My Jetta goes 3 times that distance on $20 (half a tank), about 300 miles. I still have to recover the towing fee also.

I was planning on doing my own work on the car after 100k, looks like I might start sooner and maybe I should have started at zero k. I definitely will when I get the new one.

 

[MOGolf]

Bruce, the pic is of the Bentley CD screen for VW Golf and Jetta 1999.5-2002. "page" number is to the upper right. I made it big so "always replace" could not be missed. For hard copy, Bentley service manual pages 15b-12, 15b-17, and 37-18 convey the same information.

 

[brucetmoose]

MoGolf - thank you again so much - and more to the story

So much for VW "Customer Care". All they did was call the dealer and told the manager of my complaint. They won't let me talk with the regional VW rep without the dealer being there and they won't pay for me to take it somewhere else to verify there's no bent components anywhere in the TB area.

And VW wonders why their car sales aren't up to stds - I'm going to arrange a talk with the owner and see where that goes.

They still have agreed to replace all the bolts on all of the mounts - but gee - they don't have them in stock - hmmmm - makes me think of the comment Windjammer made - if they don't stock them, how do they handle it when the customer comes in and requests it be done ???

 

[tdidieselbobny]

Man, they must have a bunch of imbeciles working @ Dorschel-thank god I've only needed to order parts from them. If I were you Bruce, keep track of all miles and gallons of gas used, then tell them you want the difference back in what you would have actually used in YOUR TDI if they hadn't screwed up.It's the least they could do-no reason why YOU should have to be paying for their mistakes- did you go over to their used car lot to see if they had any TDI's? They had an 02 or 03 wagon a week or two ago-If they had a used TDI on their lot- I would DEMAND it for a rental car for all of their incompetence. Just look next time you go there or ride up there today- they usually seem to have 1 or 2 TDI's ontheir used lot. Best of luck and keep us posted.

 

[jayp111]

So much for VW "Customer Care". All they did was call the dealer and told the manager of my complaint. They won't let me talk with the regional VW rep without the dealer being there and they won't pay for me to take it somewhere else to verify there's no bent components anywhere in the TB area.

And VW wonders why their car sales aren't up to stds - I'm going to arrange a talk with the owner and see where that goes.

Bruce, you just hit the nail on the head.

If you have a problem with the work that a dealer has done VWoA is essentially worthless. You find yourself calling VWoA and speaking with Supervisors....never the same one.....and when the Super is unable or unwilling to resolve the issue or get the dealer to respond to their requests for info they just let the case sit.

Besides that there is apparently no escalation within VWoA above the Supervisor.

On top of all of this VWoA has zero capability for providing the customer with the maint procedures for a given job.....when you ask them they tell you "We don't have acccess to that and we can't transfer you to someone that does"

Bottom line as you have found out is that they force the customer to the dealer that f-ed up. Really bad customer service IMHO.

There are a few good dealers out there but they are tough to find.....seems like there are a LOT more bad than good. VW is losing huge sales because their dealer network is so bad. If they were smart there would be a major campaign to improve cust service and quality of the techs.

I suggest that you micro manage the dealer and get them to update you at every step. Make sure you get a list of ALL parts replaced. Tell them in advance that you expect to have access to all of the parts replaced and take pics of them as documentation. Make sure that the requst for access to the replaced parts is in writing on the service request so there is no excuse for them to f-up and you have a paper trail.

Once the job is done take the car to a TDI Guru and have them go over it and provide them with the history. It will be worth the $$ you spend for the second opinion. If they find anything else that should be replaced go back to the dealer with a copy of the assessment/estimate and see what they say. Even if they say no you've got ammo for future if there is an issue with the part(s) in question.

It shouldn't have to be this way but until VWoA improves their internal processes and their dealer network it shoud be SOP for all work you get done.

 

[brucetmoose]

Close friend of mine visits from Seattle

A good friend of mine was in town from Seattle and he happens to be a VW mechanic (I knew he worked on cars, didn't realize he worked at a VW place). I showed him the car and he pointed out everything that everyone else has pointed out, even to where the hose was damaged.

He wasn't aware of the club, handed him a card, so now he's plugged in too! He was very impressed with the wealth of knowledge here.

He did, however, know that you can't re-use the bolts. Ok VW, here's a clue for doing a better hiring job - if the boss of a major project I'm on at work knows you can't re-use the bolts (and he hasn't really played with that type of stuff in years), then you gotta wonder who they are hiring.

The appt for the car to have all the bolts replaced is this wed.

Oh, and in the never ending battle, the passenger side window isn't working correctly and not tracking all the way up - good thing I heard the wind noise and got it fixed - 5 mins later a huge downpour started.

 

[brucetmoose]

I get the car back today (7/6/2006)

Dealer called today - said they went over the car with a fine tooth comb - checked water pump, all wires, replaced the hose that MoGolf said should be replaced, replaced all "always replace" bolts, and also checked the timing belt in gory detail.

Also replaced the window crank kit on both the passenger and drivers side - said their was a new tech bulletin on it (newer than the last one) - claimed it should never come loose again.

After all of this, I have a phone call meeting with the Sr. VP of the business on Monday afternoon. I called yesterday and asked to speak to the owner and got him instead.

My concerns are as follows:

1 - Work up until a certain mechanic was hired was sloppy
2 - Re-work had to be done many times
3 - Continual problems that re-occur (battery terminal assembly meltdown, etc)
4 - lack of knowledge about TDI's
5 - Oil change issues (mine and others)
6 - Collision shop did horrid work putting car back together

My summary points - your business does not seem to put the effort in to make sure that TDI's get properly done. They assured me that the engine oil issue had been adressed years ago, but obviously, it cropped up again, this time with the newer TDI's. Again, not paying attention to details!

In my job (as a computer programmer), I get specialized training about various systems as needed or when they are updated. I am EXPECTED to know about them and if I have questions LOOK THEM UP!!!

Also, as the former head of the Rochester Software Quality Assocation (RSQu), I also know that you have to have proper processes to have proper quality. The computer systems they have in place should NOT allow them to scan in parts/consumables for the cars if they don't have the fit or function. I would expect that the system would not allow them to scan a part for my car if it was for a beetle (old or new).

Also, I am offering them the opportunity to address this community via requesting a log in ID and then posting a message in this forum stating what they are doing to proactively address the issues. In my mind, they have a business opportunity here to obtain new business. It won't be easy at first, but they are willing to publicly commit then I'm willing to use it.

My other concerns are more people related. The previous owner of the franchise, Andrew Kirsch (of FA Motors), would have long ago personally made sure he talked to me and to PERSONALLY make sure that my car got taken care of AND PERSONALLY address the process issues. We as a family bought 5 cars from that dealership and would have been more if Andrew was still among the living (died of cancer - god rest his soul). His commitment to VW is missed, as well as his staff. Yes, they made mistakes once in a while - we all do, but he was upfront about addressing them AND he was upfront with his customers. If you were to do an interview with anyone in the Rochester area who has owned a VW between 1975 and 2000, I estimate at least 60% bought them from FA Motors and almost all of them were sold by Bob McDonald. Both of them made it a point to check up with owners from time to time and make sure that things were going ok - and they knew diesels. They sold 3 out of the 5 diesels to my family that we have owned and serviced them all. We NEVER had any of these kinds of issues with them, and yes, they needed special oil also (some kind of Castrol GTX). I wouldn't have had to call Andrew to get a meeting, Andrew and/or Bob would have called me personally LONG BEFORE it got to this point. Bob is retired now, but he could easily sell many more VW's if he wanted to.

Maybe the days of that have gone by, but that's the level of service I think most TDI owners expect. And if we don't get it, then both the dealership and VW suffer and we will go elsewhere and/or do it ourselves. I certainly expect it and I think we all should expect it.

And to the many people that posted pictures/ideas/suggestions/things to look at, you again have my profuse thanks from the bottom of my heart.

As promised, I will keep you all updated.

 

[LOWRANGO]

the images above can be found in elsa, the dealer will know what that is...

it states exactly as above "replace bolts". Only problem is, those aren't the bolts that broke are they? the 2 cars i saw a motor "drop" on have the bolts going into the block snapped off(the bracket that attaches to the mount and block). i'm unable at this time to find a picture of the bracket in elsa and in etka(parts) it doesn't say to replace those bolt with any type of repair. i'll keep looking for you but i don't think it states anywhere they must replace those bolts.

 

[brucetmoose]

Lowrango - not sure exactly which bolt broke - but I do have it

I can find out from the dealership which bolt broke and I have the broken bolt. I will do that and post it.

They freely admit they goofed on the bolt re-use issue, the service mgr told me he was mis-informed by one of his techs (god forbid that person ever works on my car). The tech manager told him no way those bolts could be re-used.

As I told the dealership in a phone conversation - everyone's been nice, everyone wants to help, no one wants me to pay for it, and they have fixed it.

BUT !!!! - Why did it happen ??? Why did one of the techs have incorrect info ??? Why are oil changes being a problem still ???

And more importantly - they weren't at first even going to really give the car a good looking over at first - until I presented them with what MoGolf told me plus what my friend in Seattle showed me. I've had to kick and scream for them to be through when they should have been more careful from the start.

And that's the core issue - I care how you handle the "after", but they aren't preventing anything - in fact, they are "causing" and relying on the extended warranty to cover their butts (except for this time). I still don't think they understand that point yet and in my phone meeting with them I'm going to HAMMER that point until they get it. I don't want to hear about what your're doing for me now, what I want to know is what you are doing to PREVENT these types of issues from occurring again.

For anyone more interested in quality, read a book entitled "Quality Without Tears - The Art of Hassle-Free Management" by Phillip Crosby (ISBN # 0070145113). I was given that book when I first joined the quality software group here in Rochester and it was and continues to be my favorite book.

 

[tdiot]

I have had this happen to me also....new bolts used but overtorqued on install. I`ve been through two engine mounts thanks to over enthusiatic mechanics. Experienced guys too. Poor design in my opinion....motor held from above.

 

[Frank M]

I have had this happen to me also....new bolts used but overtorqued on install. I`ve been through two engine mounts thanks to over enthusiatic mechanics. Experienced guys too. Poor design in my opinion....motor held from above.

Its always over-torqueing that causes them to break.

They would have to be used multiple times at correct torque before they would be at risk of breaking.
Before it was pointed out from the maual to replace these bolts, many many TB replacements were made by members of this forum with almost no problems.
Do a search..

The design is superior for a diesel engine. Imagine the vibration if it were not suspended.

 

[ymz]

Its always over-torqueing that causes them to break.

You mean to say that you missed the lecture in Mechanic's School where they said that if 44 ft*lb are good, 66 ft*lb would be better ????

Yuri.

 

[whitedog]

You mean to say that you missed the lecture in Mechanic's School where they said that if 44 ft*lb are good, 66 ft*lb would be better ????

Yuri.

I was always taught to check the torque twice, so instead I torque 3/8 bolts to 70 Lb Ft. and 1/2 inch bolts to 170. Saves time that way.

 

[brucetmoose]

An agreement has been reach verbally - I will be getting it in writing this week

To everyone who has posted - thank you again very much . That information was vital in getting an agreement from the dealer.

The dealer and I have verbally made an agreement on a warranty extension. When I get it in writing ( believe me, it WILL be in writing ), I will post it. I am happy with the # of miles that was agreed to.

 

[DieselMarauder]

Why are you scaring me!?!?!

I was just driving down the highway at 85 MPH when I heard a pop and it felt like I had a busted tire... Yes, exactly the same thing just happened to me!! I had to tow the car 45 miles to the dealership here in Pittsburgh, PA. The guy who drove the flatbed just stared at the engine in amazement!

So, here's the backstory:
I had the timing belt replaced maybe 15K ago in South Carolina (where there's more unicorns than mechanics who understand TDI's) and they botched the install. When I came to PA, the car had some serious problems starting in the cold. I brought it to the local dealership, where they re-adjusted the timing belt. Afterwards, I hit one of Pittsburgh's many potholes and had the return from the IC pop off. This caused the rigid plastic tube that makes up the top part of the return to get chewed up in the drive belt. The dealership "fixed" this for free but didn't replace the tube that had a hole in it. I noticed this problem a few hundred miles later and had to force the dealership to replace the tube. A few thousand miles later, my engine fell...

I'm going to the dealership tomorrow morning. I will bring a camera and take pictures of the motor mounts, bolts, TB, hoses, etc. Hopefully I can use some of the information in this thread to get the dealership to play ball and take responsibility! I'll be sure to update everyone on what happens.

And to think, my parents just ordered themselves a new and shiny '06 Jetta TDI...

 

[rmorgan]

You poor devils. Terrible design. As my '02 ages gracefully, I am wondering if they didn't do a little sabotague engineering just to make sure we came back before we were able to drive our cars a million miles. My vacuum hoses are all brittle, which will cause excessive smoke, turbo lag, and poor fuel economy...this can easily be fixed my the dealer... Oh well, at least we don't have it as bad as this guy:

http://www.hondasucks.ca/

http://www.hondasucks.ca/

 

[ta79pr]

I had the timing belt replaced maybe 15K ago in South Carolina (where there's more unicorns than mechanics who understand TDI's) and they botched the install.

I was wondering where in SC you had the job done.

 

[DieselMarauder]

Miller's Foreign Car Service

I had the timing belt changed at this small place called Miller's Foreign Car Service in Florence, SC because, sadly, it's the only place around except for the dealership 1 hour away. I really recommend nobody goes there as they did a plethora of other stupid things to the car.

For one, they didn't reattach the plastic underbody right. Of course, this piece had already broken multiple times and had been badly put together by various other shops before Miller's. However, when I brought it back the first time, they had it on the lift, told me it was reattached, and when I went over to check it, I pulled it off with only the tiniest tug... I'm upgrading to Panzer Plate as soon as they put the engine back in...

The second thing Miller's did was "rotate" our tires. The funny thing about that proposition is that when we had to switch over to winter tires later, we noticed one security nut was missing, the wheel had been scraped up around that area, and the security nut key was nowhere to be found. When we confronted the mechanics there with it, they pretty much said, "oh, well, yea, I guess they couldn't get them off cause we couldn't find the key. We tried taking one off and you can see where we did that..." They didn't have replacement lugs for the car and just left that one wheel on 4/5. Of course, they didn't mention this when we picked it up from the "tire rotation..."


As for an update on the fallen engine, I went to the dealership yesterday and decided to go on the instant offensive by explaining that this seems to be a common problem for TDI's where the engine mounts weren't properly reattached after a TB change. They were receptive, slightly deffensive (of course), and are going to take a closer look today. I did take some pictures, which I will post later, of the mount that had fallen and noticed 2 things:
1. The threads in one of the holes on the engine side seems to have been stripped.
2. The bolt of the rear hole on the mount had broken off inside the hole.

And, in retrospect, I do remember the engine seeming kind of loud that day...

 

[DieselMarauder]

A question to the Gurus!

Okay, so the guy from the dealership called me today and said that they need to replace the mounts and the screws. This will cost me $389.25 in parts and labor. He does not want to take responsibility for the damage because, according to him, they only changed the timing on the belt and did not have to take off the mount to do this.

Now my question is, can you adjust the timing belt without removing that mount?

 

[Growler]

the belt can be adjusted with the mount in the car. the adjustment is done thru the fuel pump pulley and camshaft and by resetting the tensioner. but the mount must be removed to replace the tensioner or the belt or the waterpump.

 

[brucetmoose]

Diesel - the belt change is where the bolts got messed up

Diesel - Miller's is the one that screwed up - That's where your bolts got stripped and messed up.

I'm going to take an educated guess - the mechanic used an air wrench to tighten the mounting bolts - BIG MISTAKE! The torque that has to be done is small (all under 44 foot lbs ) plus 1/4 turn. That's not much and one can easily exceed that with an air wrench. Also, with an air wrench, one has no control over how far the bolt turns after the proper torque is obtained. The only way to PROPERLY do this is with a manual torque wrench.

God I hate people who can't follow simple instructions (which they probably didn't have).

 

[DieselMarauder]

Thanks guys!

Thanks Bruce and Growler!! Thanks to you guys I can trust my dealership again and I'll be sure to take it all up with the guys at Miller's. Those blasted air wrenches were the first thing I thought of when I saw the stripped mounts...

Hopefully my next post will be about how great the car turned out and about all the great things I'll be doing to upgrade it.

 

[brucetmoose]

Speaking of updates - here's the one I promised

Got a letter from the dealership. They are extending the easycare warranty to anything with the engine for another 25k miles above the 100k Easycare Warranty due to all the screwups. Got it in writing.

Maybe now they'll pay attention when a TDI rolls in - we'll see.

 

[Rachelvwjettatdi]

I just recently had the same problem, you need this part.. its for that hose that is busted.. 1J0-145-838-b HOSE..I have to order it from VW and its a total of $76.82 I am replacing it myself. If you have any questions, let me know..RACHEL

 

[mrGutWrench]

Which of the bolts broke?

Also check the cooling fans, radiator, and AC componements that may have been rammed by the engine going forward.

__. Yeah, the photos that you have are of the upper right side of the engine - they show a lot but I'm pretty sure that the broken bolt is on the *lower* right side of the engine (kinda behind the wheel, actually). It's hard to get pictures of. I just hope that the breaking bolt didn't break the engine casing when it went (but I'm afraid that it did).