Fallen Engine

[brucetmoose]

I'm driving home from church, I get past the last turn, and I'm on the last short straight, and I hear this pop noise and the car starts shimmying and sounding like a popped tire. I'm thinking I blew a tire on some metal road trash, the car was easily able to make it home although it started getting harder to steer.

So I get out and find that all of the tires are ok. Then I open the hood and see this.

Ok, looks like one of the motor mounts gave way. The car had just been in friday for it's 80k service, and other than the usual service items - not a problem.

I'm thinking they didn't put the car back together properly from the service or when the damage was fixed after a major accident.

Man oh man, what else is going to go wrong with this car.

Anyone have any ideas on what gave way ???

 

[MOGolf]

Wasn't the timing belt recently done? Failure to replace "always replace" bolts, or over-torque of horizontal engine mount bolts will result in something like this. Take a picture of the engine mount side and post it please.

Real sorry to read of yet something else going wrong.

 

[wrenching40plus]

There are 2 hoses that pass between the serpy belt and the chassis rail -- one hose is for coolant, the other for power steering fluid. You want to be sure the belt has not eaten through either of these hoses. Also verify the plastic clip that holds the hoses against the chassis rail is still OK. If you must replace the hoses, they are fairly expensive.... AMHIK :-((

 

[whitedog]

The car had just been in friday for it's 80k service, and other than the usual service items - not a problem.

Just to be sure we understand this correctly, you just had the timing belt changed as well as other maintenance stuff?

 

[MOGolf]

This is the car that became a victim of an intake cleaning using a method that did not remove the intake manifold from the car. Hydrolock with the cleaning fluid.

Found posts indicating timing belt change was done at 60K due to bad idler roller bearings.

 

[brucetmoose]

MoGolf (and everyone else);

Thanks for the quick posts - you guys are amazing

Yes, you are correct - TB was done at 60k when roller bearings on shafts (2 shafts, not just one) went bad. All work has been done by the dealer and every single service item to be done has been done at the proper time using what should have been the proper materials - I have all the paperwork.

I can't take another pic - the car is at the shop - when you said the side mounts, where you referring to ??? I took 5 pics, I only posted one - I may have taken one that would do the trick. The side that appears to have "crashed" appears to have been the passenger side. If someone can post a pic of what they want to see with an arrow, that would help. Or repost mine with an arrow.

The car was also totally rebuilt on the front end after errant cab driver blew through a red light at 40k - again, by the dealer - who as I have posted earlier, didn't do so good a job.

Opinion question - should I be hiring a lawyer at this point ??? I have 20k of an extended warrantly left and when that goes, I can't afford to be paying for stuff like this every 2 months. The stuff that has gone on my car has been ridiculous since the accident - now I know why the insurance company didn't rebuild my parent's '85 diesel.

I'll update everyone tomorrow after I hear what happened.

 

[MOGolf]

Bruce, on the passenger side are big aluminum block pieces. Those are the engine mount pieces on that side. I'd like to see whatever picture(s) you have of that area.

If you have lawyers that give free initial consults, then you might investigate that possibility. Since this just happened, give all the parties who might be involved (shop, warranty company, insurance, etc.) a chance to state their position on the matter.

If your luck continues this way, consider riding the bus.

 

[brucetmoose]

passenger side pic - hope it helps

MoGolf;

I do plan on talking with the dealer before hiring any lawyer, it's just been one frustration after another. I no sooner get it back then something else falls apart.

This is the best I have of the passenger side for a picture - hope it helps. Almost impossible to get a pic down lower because the engine sank so far on that side.

I'd take the bus if there was one nearby, but I'm afraid that might fall apart too after a few days of me riding it.

 

[paramedick]

I'm kinda confused right now. What did they do when the repaired the damage from the BG intake clean?

Did they replace the engine, or just the bad pistons? If they had the head off, surely they replaced the timing belt. If they replaced the timing belt, they had the engine mounts loose.

If they had the engine mounts loose, they probably screwed them up.

 

[weedeater]

Ok. you'll need to take off the engine cover. Then look straight down about where the fuel lines cross over that plastic pipe. That's where the mount is located.

As mentioned above, when this has happened to people it has been because either stretch bolts were reused and broke or the motor mount broke because the bolts came out (or broke). The mount and bolts have to be removed as part of the timing belt replacement procedure.

 

[MOGolf]

Based on the above picture, we see that the mount on the body is still in place. The engine is down and forward. I suspect the 18mm head bolts stripped from the backet on the engine. A better angle picture would confirm.

One thing that clearly should be replaced in the repair of this is the molded to shape intake pressure hose that connects the plastic tube to the EGR valve (1J0 145 838 B). It is horribly stressed and twisted, and not a cheap part.

Fuel filter to fuel pump lines should also be replaced. 1J0 130 307 R

 

[brucetmoose]

What happened after the BG fiasco

After the BG fiasco, they had to rebuild the engine - they replaced all 4 rods plus the 4th cylinder piston.

My feeling is that the bolts were re-used. The TB change was done at 60k, which was a while ago. The BG thing happened just a few months ago. Of course, they could have re-used them twice.

Have to give the dealer credit for one thing - they called me this morning to ask what went wrong with the car before starting it up.

Again, profuse thanks to one and all for your responses. Everyone in this group has been wonderful with help and expert advice.

I'm thinking I should write a book - "Zen and the art of TDI maintenance".

 

[Bookerdog]

Bruce,

This is not meant as a shot at you, because I've been following your unfortunate saga and I know you had no real choice for this repair.

But to anyone else that dials up this post, here we have photographic evidence of why it is an awful idea to let the people who screwed up your engine try and fix it. The TDI requires a meticulous mechanic. One that doesn't skip over the places in the Bentley where the parts diagram says (always replace).

Unfortunately Bruce, I'm afraid that they may actually have messed it up badly enough now that they will have to replace the engine this time.

 

[brucetmoose]

it's official - they re-used the bolts

Service Manager admitted to me today that they re-used the engine mounting bolts after the BG repair. Also said they weren't stretch bolts, but that he'd check the manual.

According to them, the bolt actually broke off.

Other than that, no news - but I will keep everyone informed. Of course, they gave me a rental car for the duration of the repair at their expense.

I have a lot more I want to say, but all I'll say for now is keep tuned in.

And bookerdog, I would never have taken any of the comments for a slam on me - everyone who has ever responded to me about any of this has done so out of concern for me and you don't know how much it is appreciated - so again, I thank you all for your wonderful comments and experience.

 

[MOGolf]

Which of the bolts broke?

Also check the cooling fans, radiator, and AC componements that may have been rammed by the engine going forward.

 

[TDIfan84]

This is not the first time Dorschel has done this, either...I know someone with a 2000 (I think) GTI VR6 who had some repairs done after an accident, which required the engine mount to be removed and remounted. Days later the engine mount bolt broke, and down went the engine, while driving on 590. I find it interesting, and perhaps unnerving, that they would repeat that mistake. I hope they are covering the expenses.

 

[brucetmoose]

oh trust me, they are paying for it

TDIFan84 - Yes, it's fully covered. What remains to be seen is if the extended warranty company covers it or they have to "eat it" so to speak. My guess is the extended warranty company is going to deny it, I would if I were them. They are already in a 3x loss situation with my car BEFORE this happened - meaning that they've sustained 3 times the losses of what I paid for the warranty. The rental car is fully covered also for as long I they have my car. Actually, with the radio antenna being replaced AGAIN this past week during the 80k, they MIGHT be up to 4x. I'd have to add it up, lets just say it's extensive.

MoGolf - I'm not sure which bolt it was, they didn't say and I didn't ask. I may have overheard the front one. Sorry I don't have further details for you, I may need your help yet - stay tuned. I have very much appreciated all the insights you guys have provided - I wish we all had a real-time video chat feature to use on this past Sunday when I still had the car.

By the way, is it good to have them leave the car out in the weather with the hood open overnight with a hanger bar rig holding up the engine ??? That's the way they left it last night - I wouldn't have done that due to the fact that rain == water == electrical problems == rust also ( == means equates to for those not in the math realm ). Wish I had taken a picture of it now with my phone camera.

 

[brucetmoose]

ok - I think I got the shaft and it wasn't the engine one

I got my car back today - the engine looks way too low, but I don't remember how high it was from before.

I did get the bolt that sheared. Looks like it was on it's way out before it died.

If those bolts are one time use, can anyone help and quote me page # from the Bentley manual about it ???

At this point, I'm going to take it to the other dealer in Rochester, not say a thing about what happened, and tell them I need the engine looked over for any damage. I'm pissed I even have to pay for it, but it doesn't look right.

If anyone has any other ideas, I'm open to them.

 

[MOGolf]

Post pics and we'll give you a second, third, thousandth, opinions.

 

[whitedog]

Buy some beer and have some knowledgeable TDI guys come over and give their opinions on how things look.

 

[brucetmoose]

I can take pics - what angles, etc do you need ?

See subject - I can take and post those low level jpeg's that my camera can use (640x480).

Also saves on site storage

 

[MOGolf]

 

[Frank M]

These bolts break because they are torque to yield bolts. (stretch bolts)
The person doing the job is not aware of this because they assumed "nothing special about this part of the repair" subsequently did not notice/read that part in the service manual.

Although the book says they should be replaced every time, and I agree with that, they often times can be used a few times with no problem IF THEY ARE TORQUED to spec.

What happens in all these cases is the tech used his air impact gun to tighten them. He/she stands there as the gun is going rata tat tat and the bolt is still tightening.
finally it slows way down and they figure its tight.
Well the 30-44 ft lbs spec is well over 100 ft lbs by now. S T R E T C H E D out real nice now !!

Please do not take this the wrong way. I DO NOT ADVOCATE RE-USING these bolts.

 

[P2B]

they often times can be used a few times with no problem IF THEY ARE TORQUED to spec.

I disagree. TTY bolts cannot be torqued to spec more than once, since they yielded the first time they were torqued to spec.

Simon

 

[whitedog]

quote from my post:
Please do not take this the wrong way. I DO NOT ADVOCATE RE-USING these bolts.

Frank, you contradicted yourself there and it's very confusing. You say they can be reused, yet you say you do not advocate it. If you advocate it, then you are saying that they can be resued.

If you say you do not advocate it, you are saying they cannot be reused.

 

[P2B]

quote from my post:
Please do not take this the wrong way. I DO NOT ADVOCATE RE-USING these bolts.

In one sentence you said TTY bolts "often times can be used a few times with no problem IF THEY ARE TORQUED to spec", and in another you said "I DO NOT ADVOCATE RE-USING these bolts"

Cake and eat it?

Simon

 

[ymz]

I suppose someone might say it all depends on whether they're genuine VW or from an online vendor...

I'll bolt now...

Yuri.

 

[No Exit]

Why bother reusing them? How much does it cost to replace them ALL? I mean for them? An extra $5-10? I mean seriously, you can get a set of 13 TB change bolts for $15 shipped... what do you think they're getting them for? And how much is a repair if the engine falls? Who the **** makes these decisions? Guess if they hold up past the 12k warranty after the TB changes tho, it just means the person will come back and spend more money fixing the problem

 

[Frank M]

In one sentence you said TTY bolts "often times can be used a few times with no problem IF THEY ARE TORQUED to spec", and in another you said "I DO NOT ADVOCATE RE-USING these bolts"

Cake and eat it?

Simon

So you believe these first time re-used bolts were torqued them to spec, and 2 days later the bolt broke.

Let me tell you about the tooth fairy.


The use of the imact gun the way I described it caused these bolts to break 2 days later.

 

[brucetmoose]

MoGolf - Thank you so much !!!

There are cases when a picture speaks a million words, and the picture that MoGolf posted settles it. What part of "Always Replace Bolts" didn't they get ???

In fact, I have the broken bolt and I can tell you they shouldn't be re-used just by looking at it. You can tell where the metal got stressed from repeated tightening - all on one side. It's really wierd-looking, I'll take a pic at home and post it to make sure that you all get a good view of it.

MoGolf - Thank you so much, can you quote me the source of the picture ??? I need the name of the manual and the page # so when I go to the dealership tomorrow (or sometime soon) I have all the documentation. If it's from the electronic version of bentley, the version of the manual will do as well as what CD it came from. What I plan on doing is showing it right to their face and then demand that I be allowed to take the car to another dealer to be fully examined at their expense.

Keep your ears tuned in - this isn't over yet by a long shot.