Failing injection pump?

[LowlyOilBurner]

I have no clue what is going on here. I have a 2002 Golf TDi with about 48,000miles on it. I began having this problem with it about a week ago. In the morning, after the car sat all night, when i would take off in first gear, when i reached about 2000-2100rpms, the car would buck and sputter like crazy, and make a kind of "clicking" noise, and toss out blueish/white smoke. Sometimes it would stall out. It would do this everyonce and a while till it got warn, then all was fine. In the other gears, no problems at all, full power, normal smoke.
The fuel filter has never been changed since i bought the car new in 2002. (the dealer never changed it, even when i asked @ 20,000miles, but what ever). I changed the filter, filled it with Stanydyne to the top, and the car is much better now, however it will still do what i described above when its cold, after stilling all night, and only in first gear, but not nearly as bad as before i changed the filter... only for a brief second or so.
My question is: Could the pump be going bad, or should i check elsewhere. I have not logged timing or boost yet, to see whats going on in there. I would guess the blueish/white smoke has something to do with injection timing, as does the temps as well. Any info would be real helpful!!!
(The car is also highly moddified Race520, vnt17, RC4.x, ect., and the quality of diesel fuel here in Buffalo NY is not too good at all)
Thanks,
Matt

 

[Muggins]

Can't be the pump. If if was the IP, the problem would exist in other gears.

 

[LowlyOilBurner]

any ideas? it goes away once warm.

 

[LowlyOilBurner]

bump. I still see this probelm sometimes. Replaced the filter, and it was ok for a little while. Ordered the "t" fitting that slips into the filter, thinking this may be clogged, and i cleaned mine out, still see this problem every once and a while. If i hit the go pedel when its doing this (the sputtering, shuddering) the car will backfire, (or so it seems, by the noise from the tailpipe) Then it will go away after driving for a bit. It only does this at 2000-2100 rpms, anything after that, its fine. There is no loss in power, and only normal smoke under hard acceleration(black). Please....help. I have a line on a 12mm pump, but i don;t know if that is the prob or not...no CEL nor codes. If there was a big problem with the timing, i would imagine there would be a code being tossed at me, but none to speak of. Is it the turbo? I rebuilt it a week or so ago, and its fine, no shaft play or anything, cleaned the vanes and all, seems to be fine. But when it does this acting up, i hear a "clicking" noise, which maybe could be the vanes stuck or something, but all moves free. Am i missing something? The full rest stop pin in the turbo was bent, and i tired to straighten it out, it busted, but that should'nt be the prob, i don't think. This is really eating away at me, and i don;t want to spend $500.00 on a new pump if i don;t have to.
Thanks for any info available,
Matt

 

[Drivbiwire]

It sounds like the low stage pump is starting to fail. When this happens the pump fails to make sufficient fuel pressure to feed the high stage plunger with enough pressure to prevent cavitation. Low pressure from the low stage pump will cause stumbling, hesitation and "Clicking/Clacking" coming from the motor area. People often misinterpret this as a loud lifter or bad injector.

The fix is easy but requires sending it off to Bosch for an overhaul $550.00USD +/- a few $$.

Contact:

Diesel Fuel Injection Service
1700 SE Grand Ave.
Portland, OR 97214

Service Mngr. Rod Hardison
(800) 547-8454
(503) 235-1947
(503) 239-0603 fax

These guys have done the best work I have ever seen in rebuilding these pumps. The pumps that I have sent to them come back looking like brand new units. They come with a full Bosch Warranty for 12 months unlimited mileage.

DB

 

[LowlyOilBurner]

Interesting. Can they convert it to an 11mm? Thanks a bunch Drivbiwire, you indeed know your sh!t!

 

[jsrmonster]

Hi,

I find many pumps that are getting pulled and rebuilt for no problem other than low case pressure. They can't maintain the proper advance w/o case pressure.

Simply pull out the case relief valve, next to the fuel inlet. It is the strange piece with 10mm flats. The insides begin to walk out over time. Just hammer the retainer back in so it's flush with the bottom of the valve. Be extremely careful not to get dirt into the pump, cuz this is right at the front lift pump. Spray with carb cleaner and use compressed air to blow away dirt before removing the valve. Use a clean hammer too so dirt doesn't enter the valve. This will allow air to enter, but most pumps will be fine and start up ok and reprime, no problem. Don't open or remove this valve with car running or you'll get a good shower.

If you're getting smoky starts, and poor performance, the timing piston isn't working. If it gets real bad, you'll get start of injection faults. If your car dies or runs very poorly w/o faults, it usually means it is running out of fuel.

The middle valve shows the problem. The right valve is fixed.

Also fyi, increasing case pressure doesn't improve performance in any way. The camplate timing solenoid controls the pressure to the timing piston wrt #3 lift sensor and rpms and load request. However, if the piston is scored and leaking badly, increasing case pressure and running bioD, with greater viscosity can make the pump work good enough to get it off the lot, if you're trying to unload a hunker w/a bad pump.

btw, the pic was from Jonathan B's pump I just rebuild that had gas run thru it. The insides were rusted, and the varnish from old gas clogged up all the passages.

Jeff

 

[VelvetFoot]

Very interesting!

How bad can the pump be and still be re-buildable by you, Jeff?

 

[LowlyOilBurner]

Thanks Jeff,
I'll give it a try. There are no codes at all at this point, and performance is fine otherwise, only problem is what i described in the post above.
Thanks,
matt

 

[Drivbiwire]

I agree that you can have issues with a weak pressure regulator, however my concern is the clicking sounds which always points to a failing low pressure vane pump.

If you have drivability issues without the clicking sounds then as Jeff suggests try increasing the internal pressure regulator, then again increase it anyway just to eliminate the possibility of that being the cause.

Low pressures in the pump due to a dying vane pump will simply fail to create the fuel pressures needed to make the pump work properly.

Good pics of the pressure regulator Jeff!

DB

 

[Dodoma]

I don't think it is failing injection pump. There seems to be fuel obstruction. It may also be due to timing. I would suggest adjusting timing now that you have already changed fuel filter. I am not sure if these diesels have another fuel filter in the tank (old Rabbit and Jetta diesels have one). Replacing that filer also, accessed by removing rear seat and opening the fuel sending unit should solve the problem. Also before doing this, put diesel fuel conditioner for couple of fuel fills. Sometimes, algie develops in the tank and that may requiring tank cleaning.

 

[LowlyOilBurner]

Well, i tried that fix, no luck. The insides did walk out, i tapped them back in, problem is still there. This morning it was pretty bad, stalled out and took a couple of cranks to get it going again. It goes to the dealer on tuesday for wheel bearings and this pump issue. The car is still under warranty.

 

[Slave2school]

Ok, well I got my car intot eh shop today, and the insides just didn't start to walk out of my pump...they were rattleing around inside the pump housing!

My mechanic is in the process of reasembly as per my instructions read from this site...hopefully your wisdom has saved me about $1400

PS-my injection timing was at 250 (advanced)....and the car still ran, though mighty crappily.

 

[Jumping Jack]

Timing 255 =

The parts had completely left the valve after extraction.

For the beginners like me, here where this finds the valve.

 

[latitude500]

Is this something a shade tree mechanic can check with the injector pump still on the car?

I'd like to look at what mine looks like at 218,000 miles

 

[Stig]

I'd like to do this with the IP ON the car - any special tools needed to get the case relief valve out for inspection?

Thanks

 

[LanduytG]

To change the feed pressure just use a small drift and very gentle tap the low pressure releif valve down just a little, it won't take much to do. I would have to dig through my stuff but I think the low pressure side is about 40 psi which can be measured by pulling the plug on the side of the case and use a pressure guage to read it. Again I would have to dig it up but I think the side plug is a 12mm 1.5. I have played with the feed pressure back a couple of years ago. Very easy to do. I do not agree that the clicking is the vane pump. I have taken several pumps apart after they have been replaced because of the click. In all of them I found the cam plate and rolls beat up.

Also I would be checking for and air leak, since you say it does it after it sets all night. Look for the easy stuff first. Just remember the "KISS" method.

Greg

 

[Abdur]

To change the feed pressure just use a small drift and very gentle tap the low pressure releif valve down just a little, it won't take much to do. I would have to dig through my stuff but I think the low pressure side is about 40 psi which can be measured by pulling the plug on the side of the case and use a pressure guage to read it. Again I would have to dig it up but I think the side plug is a 12mm 1.5. I have played with the feed pressure back a couple of years ago. Very easy to do. I do not agree that the clicking is the vane pump. I have taken several pumps apart after they have been replaced because of the click. In all of them I found the cam plate and rolls beat up.

Also I would be checking for and air leak, since you say it does it after it sets all night. Look for the easy stuff first. Just remember the "KISS" method.

Greg

Hi all,
I've just had my injectors replaced and the car goes super fast, i have the 17656 - Injection Start Regulation error and it is really noisy.. my timing is very advanced i checked with vag-com. any ideas? would it be the same valve causing the problem? i'v got a 1999 passat tdi 110, its got 115k miles, the pump looks to be a replacement by the previous owner

 

[diy_fool]

Jeff, Thanks for that tip on the pressure relief valve. I took a look at mine today and found it in pieces.

Put it back together and now the NB has more top end torque. It revs out better.

BTW, Greg- I don't believe you can increase the pressure by adjusting the clip. The relief pressure is governed by the spring pressure before the piston clears the first set of holes. A stronger spring or a shim under the spring will raise the pressure.

 

[volkswizard]

Hi,

I found this thread while looking for a solution to my A4's smoking when cold.
I removed the pressure relief valve and while the innards were still within the body, the bottom o-ring has a split in it.

Two questions;
1) where do i get a new o-ring from? ETKA the VW parts CD shows the o-ring in the fuel pump diagram (and the valve) but when clicked says 'part is unavailable). Is the o-ring generic?
2) Could this split o-ring be the cause of my smoking when cold? Car is clean running and quick when warmed up but warm up phase causes lots of smoke from unburnt fuel. No DTCs, intake OK, new glow plugs, 2 new injectors, timed up using VAG COM. Could the split cause low pressure which in turn could cause bad running when cold??

Many thanks
Andrew Chapple
www.volkswagengolf.co.uk

 

[paramedick]

Took mine out today and found the pieces rattling in the orifice. Reassembled now.

Easy to remove with a 10mm crowsfoot wrench to break it loose, then a 10mm long pattern wrench held vertically to unscrew it. I do suggest using a little PBBlaster first to ease breaking it loose.

Make sure it is snugly retightened upon reinstall or you pump will lose prime and have hard restarts.

 

[ClausL]

Sorry for sneaking in my question here

But this problem I have here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=130373

Could this be caused by this erratic pressure relief valve ?

Brgds

/Claus

 

[mdt]

A tiny bit of background. My engine was stuttering when going up, say, a 4% grade at 60 mph in 5th gear. It would feel like it was fuel starved, but not in a linear way, like the engine was cutting in and out herky-jerkily. When this would happen, I'd usually get a CEL.

It turns out my case relief valve was completely disassembled. I reassembled it, noting that while it was out, my fuel-in line drained completely. When I went to crank the engine, it didn't refill. Turns out that my CAT2 filter was blocked enough to keep the pump from priming b99 thru it. I changed the filter, et voila, the pump primed and she fired right up. My CAT2 filter had 18.5K miles on it and it may be either (a) I'm building up algae in my tank b/c I'm running yummy bio-d, (b) D2 crud is still coming out of the fuel lines as the first 44k miles (now 80k) on the engine were D2, not bio-d, or (c) aliens layed filter clogging eggs in my fuel tank. So, it could be that I had two problems conspiring to create one symptom.

I cleared the pump injection deviation code (17656) with my vagcom and
it hasn't come back since (yesterday).

Any clue why VWAG chose not to make a retaining collar that works for this valve? Seems goofy to have to go in there and reseat it. To think that people are going to the stealership only to have them recommend replacing/rebuilding the pump for this is galling.

Thanks for the excellent description of how to fix the problem!

best rgds,

-mt

 

[Fortuna Wolf]

I thought I'd take a look at this while I was doing the hammer mod IQ adjustment. Very easy to do. It was starting to walk out a bit so I pressed it back in with my vise. Took about 3 minutes.

 

[JetPuf]

So a bump for this topic, I was using my RC3 oomph to get onto the freeway, and noticed the power was not all there, after 3000 rpm the engine started to miss, and there was tons of blue smoke out the back.

I checked the above mentioned pressure relief valve and it had fallen apart. I put it back together, and drove around... still experiencing the same performance issues. I checked it again after the car had cooled and was safe to wrench on, and the innards had popped out again.

Any recommendations what could be causing this to happen, and how it can be fixed?

 

[thermo]

Could the low pressure relief valve make the timing appear off?

Greetings all.
I'm experiencing stumbling/bucking at idle rpm's in my 2000 Jetta (ALH).
I got a vagcom and tweaked the injected quantity up as much as possible to correct this situation. It only got up to about 3g/stroke.
There is still some stumbling at engine idle but strangely is usually stops once the vehicle has stopped rolling.

I checked the timing with the vagcom software and it shows that it's very far advanced, close but not over the upper limit.

Two things:
1) What could cause the timing to be so far advanced given that there are three stretch bolts fixing the outer pulley to the inner shaft on the fuel pump?

2) Is there some other system that could be malfunctioning that would make the timing appear to be advanced?

When I get the proper tools I will get the pressure regulator out of the pump and take a look at it.
BTW the engine has about 110k miles on it.

Thanks!

 

[jollyGreenGiant]

Another walking relief valve collar found... Thanks!

 

[TDIJetta99]

Another walking relief valve collar found... Thanks!

Same here... Found it today looking for causes of the 17656 code...

The car runs much better, especially higher rpm's, but the code is still there and the timing doesn't seem to change at all.. It was locked at around 22 degrees before.. Now it stays around 8.5 after resetting it and pushing that valve back together.. I checked the timing with vag-com and it was advanced WAY off the chart so I adjusted it back to just under the green line where it should be.. I had to adjust the pump what seemed like one full tooth's worth of adjustment.. It's funny because just last week I was checking the timing just to show someone how to use vag-com and it was dead on. I didn't adjust it at all. On the way home from work Friday I suddenly felt a serious power loss (65mph max speed) along with some very loud diesel clatter, much more than normal (over-advanced timing type noise)..

What would cause that kind of sudden drastic change in IP timing? The TB did not slip.. Now I'm not even close to being able to insert the IP locking tool with the engine at TDC.. Before it would be very close to lining up..

 

[sdeck]

I've been having some acceleration issues with my '03 Jetta. Engine runs smooth (perhaps a bit load and "diesely"), but I seem to lose power on the hwy, just enough to be annoying. Seems like the engine is going, but the car speed doesn't seem to quite match the engine rpms, like it is lagging a bit. Could this valve be working its way loose and giving these symptoms? (95K on car, running WVO last 19K)

Anyone know the size and composition of the O-rings (I see 2 in pics)? I'd hate to pull it and not just replace them.

Thanks,

 

[Warthog]

I found this thread by searching on "white smoke" and "won't start". I'm also having trouble getting my 96 Passat to run after replacing the IP (used one; came from a running engine)and the most noticable symptom is lots of white smoke when it tries to run but won't. It acts like it's not getting fuel but the fuel valve is working OK. Maybe this is the problem. Car has about 140K miles...used pump was probably less.
Has anyone had any problems with the 4 little check valves on the pump discharge?