Exhaust Manifold Copper Pinch Nuts. Still need washers?

Lex4TDI4Life

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I saw this question asked a couple other places, but saw no direct answer.

Pulled my turbo and exhaust manifold. The nuts holding the manifold onto the studs had washers under them. Do I need to reinstall these when using new copper pinch nuts? My assumption is "no" because none of the turbo install kits I have seen seem to include them, but I and future generations would appreciate a documented answer.

TIA,
-Lex
 

tgray

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Not sure how to document common sense but I know washers always help keep abrasion down between the nut and the object it is holding. With the expansion of the hot manifold there will be movement as it expands and contracts that is different from the head. The copper nuts are softer than the manifold and could possibly wear from the forces. The washers are put on from the factory for a reason and are not the normal type of washer. Will it work without them? Of course, but long term longevity may be an issue with things loosening up. Putting washers on will not hurt anything. Why not put them on?.
 

Lex4TDI4Life

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I don't disagree on the common sense aspect. However, the pinch nuts coming in most kits are of a different design than the nuts that came on the car originally. Put another way, does the design of the copper pinch nuts make the original washers either (1) useless; or (2) actually detrimental? I figured there might be a few people who have done literally dozens of these installations to have some first hand knowledge.
 

Nero Morg

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Firstly I wouldn't use the copper pinch nuts, they tend to become one with the stud after a few heat cycles, so having to take the turbo off becomes a chore.

Secondly, they are there for heat expansion/contraction, and without them you could develop an exhaust leak or a snapped stud. Even heavy duty diesels use spacers on the exhaust manifold.
 

Lex4TDI4Life

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And just a little extra poking yields an answer:


Long story short, yes, the washers are necessary even with the copper nuts.
 

turbocharged798

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Firstly I wouldn't use the copper pinch nuts, they tend to become one with the stud after a few heat cycles, so having to take the turbo off becomes a chore.

Secondly, they are there for heat expansion/contraction, and without them you could develop an exhaust leak or a snapped stud. Even heavy duty diesels use spacers on the exhaust manifold.
This 100%. Best place for copper pinch nuts is in the trash. Use the OE nuts that aren't the pinch kind.
 

Lex4TDI4Life

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Haha, this is why I love TDIClub: hot takes on fasteners. Thank you!
 

Paradigma

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In my opinion, it is better to reinstall all the parts so that a repeated breakdown does not occur. In addition, you need to understand why this breakdown occurred. Huge temperature differences are the main problem faced by the exhaust manifold and the gasket, for which it is removed. I advise you to look for new nuts on https://www.scrooz.com.au/fasteners/rivets/ so that they can withstand the temperature difference. Many decide to replace the regular collector with a "tuning" one made of stainless steel and have a different configuration, increasing engine power and reducing the regular collector's resistance to exhaust gases.
 
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Seatman

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My originals had like a lip on them and no washers, work great, always come off. In my experience the worst is steel nuts, they always weld themselves to the studs and I need to cut them off with the dremmel lol
 

mittzlepick

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If it breaks often enough nuts come loose almost every time. I work on race cars
 

Mongler98

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This is the age old problem of making maintenance easier at the cost of complexity.
Just use oem hardware you always replace the studs anyways. Forget antiseiz and all the bs.
It's like putting a union on copper pipe. It's a leak point. Just solder in a coupling.
This is a part that should last 10 plus years or a lot of miles. Usually into the 250k range if not longer. Forget making it better down the road. I would prefer a nut that becomes one and never backs out vs a issue down the road for no good reason
 
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