Everyone loves high gas prices!

PDJetta

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"I don't mind paying triple, quadruple, quintuple, even. If it gets all the SUVs and full size (and high performance sports) cars off the road, I am all for it. I hardly ever drive so prices don't affect me much. I wish more people would do the same. Those who claim they have no choice have not considered all the alternatives."

I hear you! Presently, motor Fuel is about 1% of the wife and my gross combined salary (she carpools with me and takes the subway the rest of the way to her work and her gas pig Buick is basicaly parked now). And that is about a 20,000 mile per year for the TDI. And that's at $3.00 a gallon diesel. I'd like to see fuel higher too. Where I live the traffic is horendous. It takes me 75 minutes to commute 25 miles each way to work.

--Nate
 

Driver_found

Veteran Member
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Phila
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What burns me up is the fact that Diesel is supposed to be tied to the home heating oil demand. (Which is low right now). Normally lower prices in the non winter months.

Also the big Ethanol blending reason that is being promoted for the rise in prices, has nothing to do with Diesel.. So why is Diesel pricing following the gas pricing?

Lastly how can the refineries be caught off guard with the process. They KNEW when the dealines were. This is all a 'manufactured crisis' to tell the ignorant masses that they have no choice IMO. They have us by the b*lls. Unless you go Bio.

-Mike
 

PDJetta

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Northern Virginia
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'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
Diesel's high price IS NOT because of its scarcity. From this week's petroleum repoprt from the EIA:

Diesel (15 ppm to 500 ppm sulfur): 69.9 (4/21/06 stock in millions of BBLs)
69.8 (04/14/06 stock), 65.9 (Last year, 04/14/05) 0.1 (% change from last week 6.1 (% change from last year) --Nate
 

ScorpionBoy

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Location
CO
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2003 Jetta TDI
PDJetta said:
"I don't mind paying triple, quadruple, quintuple, even. If it gets all the SUVs and full size (and high performance sports) cars off the road, I am all for it. I hardly ever drive so prices don't affect me much. I wish more people would do the same. Those who claim they have no choice have not considered all the alternatives."

I hear you! Presently, motor Fuel is about 1% of the wife and my gross combined salary (she carpools with me and takes the subway the rest of the way to her work and her gas pig Buick is basicaly parked now). And that is about a 20,000 mile per year for the TDI. And that's at $3.00 a gallon diesel. I'd like to see fuel higher too. Where I live the traffic is horendous. It takes me 75 minutes to commute 25 miles each way to work.

--Nate
you are out of your rabbit-assed mind. if fuel prices triple you will be feeling it in every other part of your budget. folks will still be driving whatever they own and not buying other stuff. want to buy some food? well, transportation costs will be built in so you will be paying double or so for your tofu. skyrocketing energy costs will really put a pinch on our economy. slowing economy equals less new jobs, maybe job cuts, etc. etc.
 

gdiv22

Active member
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Sep 28, 2005
Location
Florida
TDI
none
So you buy your food from local producers at the farmer's market or grow it yourself.

I've already been downsized! So it's already hurt me about as much as it can. I am making do wth a very low status job and some stuff on the side.
 

rotarykid

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Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
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1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
I am sorry but without leadership in Wash. , short of todays oil shock I see no way

ScorpionBoy said:
you are out of your rabbit-assed mind. if fuel prices triple you will be feeling it in every other part of your budget. folks will still be driving whatever they own and not buying other stuff. want to buy some food? well, transportation costs will be built in so you will be paying double or so for your tofu. skyrocketing energy costs will really put a pinch on our economy. slowing economy equals less new jobs, maybe job cuts, etc. etc.
If we had real political leadership that would tell the US population the truth of our energy wasteing ways . Forced into paying what that waste really cost so extreemly high prices wouldn't be required to shock America into changine their ways .
 

McBrew

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Oct 30, 2002
Location
Annapolis, MD
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2003 Golf GLS TDI, 5 speed, Silver/Grey
There are differences between economic choices and moral choices.

When you choose between gasoline-hybrid or diesel propulsion, that's an economic decision.
I think it could be pretty well argued that a choice of vehicle/fuel can be a moral one... just not for the average American. It is sad, but if there is going to be any change in our driving habits, it'll have to start at the wallet. It has become very unpopular to be environmentally friendly in this country.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
McBrew said:
I think it could be pretty well argued that a choice of vehicle/fuel can be a moral one... just not for the average American. It is sad, but if there is going to be any change in our driving habits, it'll have to start at the wallet. It has become very unpopular to be environmentally friendly in this country.
Only because of the false dichotomy that many have bought into: that you can't be a good American conservative AND conserve. :rolleyes: These 'culture' wars are incredibly destructive and hugely counter-productive to our health and wealth and well-being. Turn off the bozo devices (Televisions) and generate original thought. The "arguments" as positioned on television and radio are intentionally asinine. Don't buy into false dichotomies.
 

turkeyssr

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Jan 13, 2003
Location
Monterey, CA
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none; as of 12/09/06
It's REALLY amusing to read all the posts. People buy into the RELIGION of environmental ****-ism so easily. They (scientists) can't accurately (100%) predict the weather or the path of a hurricane, but you're willing to give up the freedom to choose which vehicle you drive because of some gloomy prediction of 'global warming'. No matter what you drive, it can't and won't be stopped - assuming it's even REAL. If you're THAT concerned about it, jump off a friggin' cliff! It's not the cars, the lawnmowers, or fast food. IT'S YOU! Don't get me wrong here, I'm mostly venting. I do really SEE and FEEL the benefits of choosing a TDI over other vehicles. I don't care for being behind SUVs that I can't see around, but hey, I would never say someone can't have one. I believe America is the only country with any remnant of freedom and we have and are still paying a high price for it. Americans have fought for those freedoms and if we want to use more resources than anyone else, well, we’ve fought for it. I don’t believe China has. Above all, if we don’t use the oil, all the other countries will. If we ever manage to run out of it, it will simply be another paradigm shift. Something else will HAVE to fill the gap. Until then quit whining about how great you are for driving a TDI!
 

TornadoRed

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Aug 3, 2003
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2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red; 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver
PDJetta said:
Diesel's high price IS NOT because of its scarcity. From this week's petroleum repoprt from the EIA:

Diesel (15 ppm to 500 ppm sulfur): 69.9 (4/21/06 stock in millions of BBLs)
69.8 (04/14/06 stock), 65.9 (Last year, 04/14/05) 0.1 (% change from last week 6.1 (% change from last year) --Nate
Those stocks represent a 26-day supply. It doesn't take much of a change in refinery production to shift that to a 25-day supply or a 27-day supply.

But domestic stocks are only a small share of global stocks. The US could have a 90-day supply, but if there are shortages in the rest of the world, prices will go up.

Refineries have to perform periodic maintenance. Some of them postponed scheduled maintenance last fall, because every gallon of fuel they could produce was needed. But they can't keep postponing maintenance forever.

Some refiners are combining the maintenance with the changeover to summer gasoline and/or ULSD. So there are temporary shortages. Refinery utilization is currently in the mid-to-upper 80 percent range. In a few weeks it will be back up toward 95%, and prices will drop back into a more normal range for both diesel and gasoline. I have no idea what normal prices should be.
 

TornadoRed

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gdiv22 said:
So you buy your food from local producers at the farmer's market or grow it yourself.

I've already been downsized! So it's already hurt me about as much as it can. I am making do wth a very low status job and some stuff on the side.
300 million people, most of them living in urban or suburban areas, cannot grow their own food or buy it from local producers.

It is really nuts to suggest that we could or should see a contraction in interstate trade as something desirable. The result would be a sharp decline in standards of living, and an enormous increase in unemployment, poverty, and hunger (even starvation).
 

TornadoRed

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There are differences between economic choices and moral choices.

When you choose between gasoline-hybrid or diesel propulsion, that's an economic decision.
McBrew said:
I think it could be pretty well argued that a choice of vehicle/fuel can be a moral one... just not for the average American. It is sad, but if there is going to be any change in our driving habits, it'll have to start at the wallet. It has become very unpopular to be environmentally friendly in this country.
Well, the economist Adam Smith was a professor of moral philosophy at the University of Glasgow. So the dividing line between the moral and the economic is an arbitrary one, if it exists.

Some might think that those of us who worship at the diesel pump are merely cultists. But there is nothing moral about a 45-mpg Golf TDI, and nothing immoral about a 12-mpg Dodge Dakota. Each one is merely a tool. And choosing a particular tool does not translate into a moral decision.
 

gdiv22

Active member
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Location
Florida
TDI
none
But there is nothing moral about a 45-mpg Golf TDI, and nothing immoral about a 12-mpg Dodge Dakota.

I don't agree with this.

When you get over the abstraction and connect the dots, you can see that there is a moral imperative to conservation. We are dealing with a finite resource. If we get some, that means that others have to make do without.
http://www.energybulletin.net/3948.html

300 million people, most of them living in urban or suburban areas, cannot grow their own food or buy it from local producers

We will have to choose: food or fuel. Meat will probably be a very limited option at some point in the future.

For many people, diet choice has a larger impact than driving:

http://laweekly.blogs.com/judith_lewis/files/diet_energy_and_global_warming-1.pdf
 

jayp111

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Joined
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TornadoRed said:
300 million people, most of them living in urban or suburban areas, cannot grow their own food or buy it from local producers.

It is really nuts to suggest that we could or should see a contraction in interstate trade as something desirable. The result would be a sharp decline in standards of living, and an enormous increase in unemployment, poverty, and hunger (even starvation).
TR, I doubt that anyone expects to eliminate interstate commerce but like others have noted it doesn't make sense to ship produce/finished products from Cali to New Jeysey if a local alternative is avail. If we do nothing more than make a 10% reduction in the amount of Petro that we consume through a wide variety of means then short term it will have a huge positive effect.
 

TornadoRed

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justpaddlek1 said:
TR, I doubt that anyone expects to eliminate interstate commerce but like others have noted it doesn't make sense to ship produce/finished products from Cali to New Jeysey if a local alternative is avail. If we do nothing more than make a 10% reduction in the amount of Petro that we consume through a wide variety of means then short term it will have a huge positive effect.
I agree, why put California lettuce on your burger, when New Jersey lettuce is just as good? Oh yeah, that "growing season" thing.

There is this economic principle called "competitive advantage." Kansas is better at growing wheat than Maine, but Maine has an advantage when it comes to lobsters. If lobstermen can't ship their lobsters out-of-state, they're out-of-work. If Kansans have to eat all the wheat they grow, they'll quit growing it. Too bad about the folks in the rest of the world who'll die without bread.

Are you going to grow your own raw materials for biodiesel too? How many acres of farmland do YOU own? (I have room for a window planter, but it's in the shade.)

Basically, in a quest for conservation, some folks seem willing to revert to an autarkic system that was obsolete at the time of the Roman Empire. (Tin from Spain, grain from Africa, oil from Greece, spices from Persia and beyond)
 

jayp111

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TornadoRed said:
I agree, why put California lettuce on your burger, when New Jersey lettuce is just as good? Oh yeah, that "growing season" thing.

There is this economic principle called "competitive advantage." Kansas is better at growing wheat than Maine, but Maine has an advantage when it comes to lobsters. If lobstermen can't ship their lobsters out-of-state, they're out-of-work. If Kansans have to eat all the wheat they grow, they'll quit growing it. Too bad about the folks in the rest of the world who'll die without bread.

Are you going to grow your own raw materials for biodiesel too? How many acres of farmland do YOU own? (I have room for a window planter, but it's in the shade.)

Basically, in a quest for conservation, some folks seem willing to revert to an autarkic system that was obsolete at the time of the Roman Empire. (Tin from Spain, grain from Africa, oil from Greece, spices from Persia and beyond)
You missed the line in my post where i said "if a local alternative is avail."

In the BWI corridor there are still a fair number of farms around.....go a little further out to the eartern shore and sw to Virginia and its the same. maybe some good will come of this and it and family farms will become more profitable....one can only hope
 

PoloTDI-06

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London, UK
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Ok children settle down. If you want to pay 5x for your fuel, each time you go to fill up calculate 5x and put the additional cash in to the 3rd world charity box--see how long you continue to enjoy that kind of cost despite the good it may be doing.

The solution IS VERY SIMPLE, we need to switch to renewable fuel (Alcohol for gassers, BIO-D for us oil burners). Farmers all over the world will gain, the enviroment wins, we don't have wars with the middle east (although they might start bomboing us for not buying their dirty black stuff). Everyone wins apart from the oil companies--there lies the problem. Politicians are in too deep with the oil companies so it just won't happen; the only thing we can do is spread the word and use non-petrol based products if we can.


The best thing that could happen to this planet (and mankind) is to have the oil fields run dry tomorrow--then things would have to change.
 

cptmox

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PoloTDI-06 said:
Ok children settle down. If you want to pay 5x for your fuel, each time you go to fill up calculate 5x and put the additional cash in to the 3rd world charity box--see how long you continue to enjoy that kind of cost despite the good it may be doing.

The solution IS VERY SIMPLE, we need to switch to renewable fuel (Alcohol for gassers, BIO-D for us oil burners). Farmers all over the world will gain, the enviroment wins, we don't have wars with the middle east (although they might start bomboing us for not buying their dirty black stuff). Everyone wins apart from the oil companies--there lies the problem. Politicians are in too deep with the oil companies so it just won't happen; the only thing we can do is spread the word and use non-petrol based products if we can.


The best thing that could happen to this planet (and mankind) is to have the oil fields run dry tomorrow--then things would have to change.
I think you're seeing things with rose colored glasses. We all agree that oil will not last forever, and that bio fuels are a good alternative, but they are not the ANSWER. This planet uses SO MUCH oil that farmers will not be able to produce the necessary billions and billions pounds of product.

We all want to do what you are talking about, but we're (TDIers) are realistic.

Be careful what you wish for. We are nowhere ready for the oilfields to run dry.
 

03_01_TDI

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Denmark
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Na
I live in the largest carpet producing town. At my part time job we sell floor mats. Those mats are produced less than 3 miles away. YET they are shipped to a warehouse 90 miles away then back to the store.

If we could stop the waste -- that would be the biggest change of all. People need to think locally or in a region. Whats wrong with people in Maine eating mostly lobster? Its called heratige and local pride.
 

Dave_D

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cptmox said:
I think you're seeing things with rose colored glasses. We all agree that oil will not last forever, and that bio fuels are a good alternative, but they are not the ANSWER. This planet uses SO MUCH oil that farmers will not be able to produce the necessary billions and billions pounds of product.

We all want to do what you are talking about, but we're (TDIers) are realistic.

Be careful what you wish for. We are nowhere ready for the oilfields to run dry.
That is the reason research is being done on algae with high oil content as an alternative to existing crops. Potential productivity with algae is orders of magnitude higher than existing oil crops and it is possible that algae could provide bio-diesel to replace petroleum diesel. For more details see:

http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html
 

McBrew

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It's REALLY amusing to read all the posts. People buy into the RELIGION of environmental ****-ism so easily. They (scientists) can't accurately (100%) predict the weather or the path of a hurricane, but you're willing to give up the freedom to choose which vehicle you drive because of some gloomy prediction of 'global warming'. No matter what you drive, it can't and won't be stopped - assuming it's even REAL. If you're THAT concerned about it, jump off a friggin' cliff! It's not the cars, the lawnmowers, or fast food. IT'S YOU! Don't get me wrong here, I'm mostly venting. I do really SEE and FEEL the benefits of choosing a TDI over other vehicles. I don't care for being behind SUVs that I can't see around, but hey, I would never say someone can't have one. I believe America is the only country with any remnant of freedom and we have and are still paying a high price for it. Americans have fought for those freedoms and if we want to use more resources than anyone else, well, we’ve fought for it. I don’t believe China has. Above all, if we don’t use the oil, all the other countries will. If we ever manage to run out of it, it will simply be another paradigm shift. Something else will HAVE to fill the gap. Until then quit whining about how great you are for driving a TDI!
Wow. You are so wrong I don't know where to start. I hope, for the sake of our country and our planet, that there aren't too many people who truly think like you.

"Our boys are dying so that we can have the right to use ap all the natural resources and pollute the air and water."

That is incredibly small-minded and selfish.

Yes, it is better to use less fuel, and to use renewable fuels when possible. That is why a TDI is morally better than a Hummer. Sorry, but true. Now, someone might need a larger vehicle to do a certain job. I need my Sprinter for some work that I do. Heck, I even own a 12 MPG motorhome. However, I don't drive it to work every day... and when I do drive it, it is running on B100 biodiesel.

No, a TDI running on biodiesel is not clean -- it does have a negative impact on the environment. However, it is better than other alternatives.

We are nowhere ready for the oilfields to run dry.
Yeah, but the question is: why not?
 

ScorpionBoy

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CO
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2003 Jetta TDI
all this moral bs is super funny to even consider. economy wasn't even my first consideration for the TDI. All i have around here are trucks, 5.0L and 4.0l and i want to build one of them up. i needed another ride while i get some 35s and a 351 on the Bronco. the tdi was kinda loud and smelly and she would go when i put my foot in it. i drive the car even when i have nowhere to go just to drive (guess it is a vw thing). so i guess i am immoral even though i bught a tdi. get off your horses.
 

jimlockey

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"Speaking of Moral" , how about Congress, both house and Semate, stop accepting campaign funds from Big Oil ????????????????????????????????
 

McBrew

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Scorpion, I am not making judgements about anybody. I like to just go out and drive, too. I just made an argument that the choice of vehicle could be considered a moral decision. There are plenty of things that other people consider to be moral decisions that I think are rather silly... like pharmacists that won't sell birth control pills.
 

turkeyssr

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Location
Monterey, CA
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<<Wow. You are so wrong I don't know where to start. I hope, for the sake of our country and our planet, that there aren't too many people who truly think like you.>>

Do you mean people that actually <gasp> believe that you shouldn't trade freedom for anything?

<<"Our boys are dying so that we can have the right to use ap all the natural resources and pollute the air and water." >>

Your words not mine. In either case, America has been the ONE country to take VERY high risks and paid a high price for them. We deserve to use oil, specifically, as our population sees fit. You're in the minority thinking people don't have 'the right' to drive big vehicles.

<<That is incredibly small-minded and selfish.>>
See above. Right back at ya. Especially a knucklehead that thinks by burning 'biodiesel' in their 12mpg motorhome makes them so
magnanimous and better morally, or otherwise, than anyone else.

<<Yes, it is better to use less fuel, and to use renewable fuels when possible. That is why a TDI is morally better than a Hummer. Sorry, but true. Now, someone might need a larger vehicle to do a certain job. I need my Sprinter for some work that I do. Heck, I even own a 12 MPG motorhome. However, I don't drive it to work every day... and when I do drive it, it is running on B100 biodiesel.>>

Morals are subjective. Like most enviromentalists, you're a hypocrite...do as I say, not as I do. Don't use up resources! Then you go off driving to go hiking or <gasp> have kids!

<<No, a TDI running on biodiesel is not clean -- it does have a negative impact on the environment. However, it is better than other alternatives.>>

Running on natural gas or propane has been around since I was born. Why don't you use a vehicle powered by that? Honda even makes Civic now that runs on it.

Face it: your arguments are shallow and hold no water. You can't have your cake, (12mpg vehicle driven on weekends or not), and tell other people they can't have ANY other vehicle of their choosing. Wouldn't the world be soooooo much better without that 12mpg vehicle??:D
 

tdisky

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2013 Passat TDI SEL (hers)
Getting back to the Exxon/Mobil boycott: my mom emailed me, since she also got the chain e-letter, and this is an excerpt of my message to her:

About the boycott: I certainly have no love for big oil, but I think the problem is not that gas is too expensive, it's too cheap. When I see 15 mpg SUVs barrelling along at 80 mph, it's too cheap. The more expensive it is, the more demand will grow for smaller, more fuel efficient cars. If it's cheap, then auto mfrs. will just take the easy way out, like they have the past 10 years or so. Profits down? Build another truck or SUV! They're huge money makers, more so than advanced small cars like my diesel Jetta (really). So, I'm actually happy that gas is over $3/gallon. This will help ramp up conservation, mass transit and alternative fuels and energy. Let's remember, oil is non-renewable. I've read several different sources that all say the real cost of gasoline is more like $8 (or more) per gallon, once war, injustice, global instability and environmental degradation are factored in. And oh, I forgot, "The War on Terror". We're spending over a BILLION a month in Iraq, and you can't tell me it's not over oil. If it wasn't, we'd be gunning for North Korea first; they're the real threat. I don't belive Sadaam ever threatened to turn a bordering country's capital (our staunch ally, South Korea) into "a sea of fire". Plus, all that oil money (billions of dollars per year), is going OUT of the US, never to be seen again (well, they might loan it back to us to fund our staggering war debt). If we develop our own energy, the money will stay here, fund less terrorism and provide jobs.

Now, these people that send around these petitions. I hate to burst their bubbles, but nobody has a God-given right to cheap oil. I bet most of those people (I doubt you, though) crow like roosters when the capitalist system works in their favor. "Know how much money I made off...?!!". Well, when it bites them, they're howling like spoiled children, and then the Seven Sisters are evil. Also, I wonder what kind of cars these people drive. Nobody held a gun to their heads and told them they had to buy 4500 pound, 17 mpg behemoths whose bumpers are aimed at my head. Sorry, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Check out some of the gas prices worldwide. Three bucks a gallon is still cheap. So, keep the prices up, baby!

Side note: I worked in the offshore oil industry in the 80's, exploring for oil off California and Alaska. "It don't come easy".
 

ScorpionBoy

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CO
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2003 Jetta TDI
McBrew said:
Scorpion, I am not making judgements about anybody. I like to just go out and drive, too. I just made an argument that the choice of vehicle could be considered a moral decision. There are plenty of things that other people consider to be moral decisions that I think are rather silly... like pharmacists that won't sell birth control pills.
i definitely agree with you about the birth control pills. and i see your point. for some, buying a more efficient vehicle is a moral decision.
 
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