Eurotrash Motorsports - Audi A4 OPRC / Targa TDi

nitec

Vendor
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Location
Ottawa, ON
TDI
1.9TDi PD
Eurotrash Motorsports - Audi A4 TDiQ - IHI RHC6?

Hello folks...

I've been following some of the discussions on this site for a while and it's time I introduced myself and the project I'm starting...

I've been a VW/Audi fan for a long time - started off with my dad's 1984 1.6D (if I remember correctly) back in Europe...I've recently built a few 1.8Ts and got into the 5cyl Audi engines as well. I just came back from Targa Newfoundland where I crashed and raced (yes in that order) my european 1993 Audi 80 Avant with a 2.2T quattro conversion...



Video of the crash:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBYKLYVEKQs

Full build:
http://motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?t=39033

Anyways - now on to the reason for why I'm posting here...
A year or so ago I got my hands on a 'totalled' 2001 A4 - the previous owner was unfortunate enough to hit a deer on the hwy - although there was zero damage to the rest of the car, he nicked the timing belt under the hood and smoked the engine...the shell is like new otherwise so I picked it up with the idea of building a 1.8T and getting it back on the road...

However - I've always wanted to build a diesel engine - one can only keep learning by trying out new things. I've already done a 1.8T and so have tons of other people. It's time to do something a little more unique. I am also planning on returning to Targa and collecting more than my finisher's medallion the next time around.

So the project:

Audi A4 TDi quattro OPRC-CRC (Ontario Performance Rally Championship -Canadian Rally Championship) / Targa rally car...
the car is getting caged this week and the build will finally begin...the major part of the project is already decided on / finalized...the engine is the big question mark...I have also been approached by one of my partners looking for a race developed diesel engine for their 2014 Dakar entry...the company is interested in using the quattro driveline and a TDi engine and build a dedicated vehicle around it...

so - to put some numbers out there I'm going to try and build a 200hp / 350ftlbs of torque 1.9/2.0 TDi engine that will be mated to the A4 quattro...from what I've read on here such numbers can be easily obtained...
the build will of course see the engine build from scratch - forged pistons and rods, ARP studs, complete head rebuild etc...

I've gone over the FAQs a number of times but it's always easier to get people's opinions first hand so let's hear it - engine choice, list of mods, preferred suppliers, tuning etc?

The time line looks like this:
2011 - cage / driveline / suspension / brakes
2012 - engine / OPRC (CRC)
2013 - Targa Newfoundland / Pike's Peak hill climb

stay tuned...
 
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Whitbread

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 21, 2007
Location
Johannesburg, MI
TDI
Several
Run a BHW engine from a 04-05 passat. Will bolt right up to your trans and factory parts would let it bolt right in the car. Use a SMF 1.8T clutch rated for 450+ tq. Little things here and there will have to be customized but that shouldn't be a challenge for you guys it looks like.

Put in a set of Rosten large journal rods, make sure you run the geared balance shaft module (or delete it like TDISyncro did), hone cylinders and new set of rings while you're in there, bosio race 783 nozzles, port the head, fixed cam from Colt Cams or Franko6, ARP head studs, ARP main studs, and a 2260vk turbo. Hello 220+hp/400+ft-lbs with a 2200rpm to 5500rpm power band.
 

nitec

Vendor
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Location
Ottawa, ON
TDI
1.9TDi PD
mmm I can make a shopping list out of that...let's see:

1. BHW engine - Passat 04-05 (auto trans in the B5.5 bodies right?)
2. Rosten rods
3. Bosio race 783 nozzles
4. Fixed cam (Colt Cams)
5. ARP hardware
6. 2260vk turbo

seems pretty straight forward...didn't see anything on the piston side? do people bore these engines out to 2.0L? I imagine you'd have to be careful with the compression...this is all backwards for me - I imagine the goal is to raise the compression on a diesel? I lowered it on the 2.2 and it was a happy camper when the boost kicked in...
 

Whitbread

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 21, 2007
Location
Johannesburg, MI
TDI
Several
mmm I can make a shopping list out of that...let's see:

1. BHW engine - Passat 04-05 (auto trans in the B5.5 bodies right?)
2. Rosten rods
3. Bosio race 783 nozzles
4. Fixed cam (Colt Cams)
5. ARP hardware
6. 2260vk turbo

seems pretty straight forward...didn't see anything on the piston side? do people bore these engines out to 2.0L? I imagine you'd have to be careful with the compression...this is all backwards for me - I imagine the goal is to raise the compression on a diesel? I lowered it on the 2.2 and it was a happy camper when the boost kicked in...
Yes, the 04-05 passat's were all auto. But it doesn't matter as the rear of the engine is exactly the same as a 1.8T you pulled out.

No need to bore or change pistons, that motor is already a 2.0L and has the strongest/best OEM pistons available :). It's also 1 point lower compression from the start than any of the other tdi's. After adding the cam, you'll drop another .75-1 point of compression. Most tdi's start at 19.5:1, but the BHW's start at 18.5:1 so you would be in the high 17's dynamic ratio (with the cam) which is a perfect ratio for the 25-35 psi of boost the 2260vk will make.

Lowering compression on a diesel is a little bit different than lowering it for a gas engine. With diesel, you don't have detonation to worry about. Your main worries are peak cylinder pressures and whether the head gasket will hold them. When you lower CR, you'll negatively affect turbo spool because you're reducing exhaust energy off boost. Since this will be a race car and winter starting manners aren't an issue, you could have the piston bowls machined and the CR lowered down to 16:1, but I wouldn't bother unless you're going to run compound turbos with 40+psi of boost. With a single large vnt, it would be very lethargic off boost.

As for wiring it all up, I'd talk to either Malone Tuning or TD Tuning and see what their recommendations are. I don't know whether it would be easier to use the passat wiring and ecu or the wiring and ecu out of a mk4 pd golf or jetta. I'm thinking the latter as the ecu is less smart and there's less junk to pull out of the harness.
 

nitec

Vendor
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Location
Ottawa, ON
TDI
1.9TDi PD
good info!

some questions that come to mind: how common is the engine casting? I know all 1.9TDis will bolt to the tranny but are the engine mount holes there etc..for example I know I can take the 1.8T off a transverse mounted car and put it in a longitudinal application...the intake manifolds etc might be different but the block itself works...

I`m asking because from what I've seen - tdi passats are rare, engines alone are even harder to get and i`m not gonna buy a $12k car to get the engine out of it...now Mk4s with high mileage TDis galore and since I`m rebuilding the engine from scratch i`m not too worried about the mileage anyways...

the accessories from a longitudinal 1.8T should bolt right onto the TDi...somebody correct me here but the casting of the engines is identical with the difference being the stroke between them...for example the TDi crank is used to stroke a 1.8T to a 2.0T etc...

can't seem to find a good answer to this either - what happens when you run diesels at high rpm? my dad simply screams at me and tells me to get off the gas but what would actually happen? I recon the fuel burns slower so at high rpm you won't be able to burn it completely - so do you just lose power? does the engine break? how do you figure out your max rpm sort of thing?
 

Whitbread

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Jan 21, 2007
Location
Johannesburg, MI
TDI
Several
If you use an ALH, by the time you buy all the parts and do all the work, you'll be at the same as buying a wrecked passat if not more. Here's one that was just on e bay that didn't sell http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2005...4499168?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2c5f201560 . Maybe try contacting them and see if you can work out a deal.

Starting with a bhw, you have a larger rod journal crank (stronger than an ALH crank), better pistons (they're $1100 a set if you wanted to buy them to put in a ALH), and the PD injection system which can deliver more fuel easier than a rotary pump system. With the PD setup, just shy of $1K will get you race nozzles and calibration for them which will fuel ~250hp. To do that with an ALH, you'll need a 12mm pump from DFIS or Giles which will run about $1200, plus another $600 for race nozzles and calibration. So just between pistons and injection system upgrades, you're saving almost $2K starting with a passat motor.
 
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nitec

Vendor
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Location
Ottawa, ON
TDI
1.9TDi PD
fair enough...there's no hurry so I`ll start looking for the engine I`m sure something will pop out by the time I`m ready for installation...I also know plenty of people in Europe - might be worth while shipping a crate over...
 

O.C.TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Location
Oregon City, OR
TDI
04 Jetta TDI, 09' JSW TDI, 09' BMW 335d
I completely support Whitbread's comments.
If you bring one over from Europe you could get one from a manual trans car that won't have the balance shaft to deal with. That there would be a $12-1400 savings.

The build thread link in my signature shows what the 250hp range takes, and soon how far it can reliably be taken.

Read your full build, all 23 freaking pages. Nice work. ;) Looking forward to following your new build.
 

fitzski

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2004
Location
Ottawa
TDI
Uh... hmm... Well, none...
Get a real job already!! Maybe invest in some performance driving lessons... <poke>

;-)


TDI Passat's are not that rare around here... but as '04-'05 models only, they are still on the road, and worth the effort to keep them there, vs the volume of older ALH's that are rolling 500k+ kms, etc. You'll just have to get lucky to find one from a salvage.
 

nitec

Vendor
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Jan 30, 2006
Location
Ottawa, ON
TDI
1.9TDi PD
oh burn! :) hah...if I had more than 1 day of car testing before we left this would have likely been avoided...at the same time the only real way to learn the 'tarmac->gravel->tarmac' technique is to get it wrong at least once :) don't worry - next time I won't try to correct the oversteer so quickly...it's funny - after that happened all of the more experienced guys were laughing and saying it happens to everybody at least once...it is also valuable experience for driving in the winter where you might encounter the tarmac->ice/snow -> tarmac scenario...
 

jjordan11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Location
Lehi, UT
TDI
1988 Audi 80 quattro PD130, 1982 Westfalia TDI
Do you plan on just using the stock 01A 5 speed trans for now? I'm curious if it will hold up to the torque. The gearing should be good for the purpose you are trying to achieve.
 

nitec

Vendor
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Location
Ottawa, ON
TDI
1.9TDi PD
yup - stock 01A for now...the idea is to 'test' everything as much as possible - we stripped the splines on one of drive shafts with the 2.2T and that had 250ftlbs so I expect the diesel will be very happy to put the driveline to the test...if an 01E is needed well an 01E is needed :)
 

jjordan11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Location
Lehi, UT
TDI
1988 Audi 80 quattro PD130, 1982 Westfalia TDI
In regards to an engine, I agree that the BHW would be the ultimate, but there are other alternatives. The oil pans from the later B5 chassis will bolt up to the ALH or BEW, there is a member selling a european spec PD150 (which also has very strong pistons and lower compression), it would be a very good base to start from as well. I have been seriously contemplating snatching that deal up, but don't have the funds right now to do so.

My 01A trans seemed to do ok with the torque, I didn't have it dynoed, but I suspect the torque was up close to 300 when my old turbo gave out. I decided to upgrade because for mine the freeway cruising (75+mph) rpms were too high and my differential was already a 4.11:1 ratio.

Looks like fun, keep up the good work.
 

nitec

Vendor
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Location
Ottawa, ON
TDI
1.9TDi PD
and so it begins...figured the design of the cage and marked the seat position...the cage should be done by the end of the week (ish) so I`ll likely be painting the interior over the weekend...





spent some time today looking at cars in germany I can import for the engine...the options of course are 1.9TDi and 2.5TDi...I`m leaning towards the 1.9 because it will leave some good space to work under the hood...I`m planning on doing the suspension, brakes and a complete drivetrain service before January...I`ll likely build a 1.8T to get the car on the road and worry about the diesel after...
 

nitec

Vendor
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Location
Ottawa, ON
TDI
1.9TDi PD
Openroad Motorsports - they did the cage on my 80...the tech promised me that this one will be a lot cleaner - the welds on the last one were a little rough...

you can see what I mean here:



they're building the cage to CRC standards so I can run it in whatever I want...
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 1998
Location
Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
TDI
idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H
I think I see the handling problem....



Back seat drivers should NOT be given control of their own functional steering wheel....;)
 

nitec

Vendor
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Location
Ottawa, ON
TDI
1.9TDi PD
picked 'er up from the cage builder today :)

sorry for the bad pics - it got dark by the time we started loading it on the trailer...









also had a very good weekend diesel wise - exchanged my wolfsburg 1.8t for a 1.9TDi PD station wagon :) I`m super pumped...been driving the car for a total of 2 days and already lovin the crap out of it...I`ll probably use this engine as the test bed for the Audi....pics of that car later this week...
 
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TDIsyncro

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
Saskatoon, SK
TDI
Audi/TDI x 2
nice project. I am actually living close by right now...down town toronto for a few more months. I have not done much on my project for last 3-4 months because of this work placement but look forward to getting back at it this winter. My car is also a blk 2001 Audi A4.:cool: My cage is a bit different than yours (not as substantial). Look forward to following your build.
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
Ottawa is somewhere between TDIsyncro in Toronto and myself. Maybe we can arrange to GTG... :)
 

nitec

Vendor
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Location
Ottawa, ON
TDI
1.9TDi PD
everybody over my house for beers and burgers :) we can discuss important matters about life, the universe and TDis :)

hah - TDIsyncro I noticed we're both building the same car :) the collision that mine went through didn't claim anything structural which is good...I`m painting the interior on friday and if time permits will drop the suspension and start rebuilding...
 

TDIsyncro

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
Saskatoon, SK
TDI
Audi/TDI x 2
the GTG sounds like a good idea. I think plane tickets from the down town airport here should be pretty cheap for a flight to Ottowa. Lets see if we can come up with a schedule that works.
 

nitec

Vendor
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Location
Ottawa, ON
TDI
1.9TDi PD
I`m pretty much good any weekend...let's figure this out...

chilly fall day...

this should make things easier :)



started off with this:



and finished off with this:



pretty sure that's the last this car will see of me until next spring...it's getting too cold outside...
 
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