EPA Just Deregulated Diesel Emissions Standards

[pkhoury]

Death wobble is from a jacked up (lifted) truck with improper geometry, usually from a cut rate or homemade kit....in a factory height truck, it's just worn and broken suspension stuff, pretty basic.
Having a wobble when towing is typically a tail wagging the dog situation where the person disregard the basics.... typically a mis loaded trailer with an excessive tongue weight and often too much weight for the towing vehicle making it worse.
The ending in EITHER CASE is very bad....an undampened oscillation worsening till an accident happens..... sometimes the driver can stop it..but it often restarts from a minor bump, turn or gust of wind.

So basically akin to trailer sway, but more so on the towing vehicle? I'm wondering if it's similar to harmonic rocking in a train. That I've felt at the train museum before, which occurs at certain speeds on not so level track, and it's very disconcerting.

I feel like my F-450 is a little lifted, but probably due to the suspension, as it's otherwise stock, and I don't see the purpose in a lift kit for my purposes. I was once loaded improperly with a bunch of metal for a small pole barn built on my mother's ranch, which relegated me to 40-45mph speed limits on the way home - anything over 45 and the trailer sway was BAD. Part of the problem was also having a 7000 pound 20 foot trailer; if I could go back in time, I would've opted instead for a 30 foot gooseneck, for the times I've had heavy items longer than 20 feet, to distribute that weight more evenly. Thankfully, on my TDIs, I've gotten very good at loading my trailer, keeping things optimized so I don't have any issues while towing.

 

[d24tdi]

It's a lot more violent than trailer sway. Think paint shaker, not pendulum......

 

[pkhoury]

It most certainly does not only happen to coil spring suspension, ford was so worried about it with their leaf sprung trucks that started including a small trac bar on the f350s front axle back in the 80's. The w/d series dodges from the late 80-mid 90's had the same issues with leaf spring front axles. Shake so bad it would rip the steering wheel right out of your hand, with zero warning it was going to happen. Cheapo shackle lift/ leveling kits made it worse by screwing up the steering geometry. Dodge
Then proceeded to make the world's worst front suspension/ axles every seen in 94. Even 100% bone stock it was garbage at best. I should know, I had a 94 2500 I bought for a cummins swap I ended up driving for a few years before I pulled the engine and scrapped the rest of the truck.

I don't suppose that front track bar happens to be a gas cylinder connected to the steering, does it? I have that on my truck, but the nut that held onto the piston fell off years ago and I haven't got around to replacing it.

Ha, I've heard from so many others that the only good thing about 90s Dodge trucks was the 12 valve Cummins, and that everything else surrounding it was pure crap. I've been pretty satisfied with my Powerstroke, even if it's not the fastest diesel truck out there. Certainly better than the shortcomings of the GMC 6.5L (I sold that about two or three years ago for $2800 and took a massive loss, just to get it the hell out of my life).

 

[pkhoury]

It's a lot more violent than trailer sway. Think paint shaker, not pendulum......

After reading some more posts, including @oilhammer 's, it makes more sense. I think I have heard of that before. Never experienced that before on any personal vehicles, and don't really think I want to.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

Known to motorcyclists as "bar shake" and in worse cases a "tank slapper". BMW seems to have a problem with it as they design their bikes with steering geometer that allows easy and responsive steering, but puts them right at the edge of bar shake so worn parts or misloading will bring it on.

 

[jmodge]

Known to motorcyclists as "bar shake" and in worse cases a "tank slapper". BMW seems to have a problem with it as they design their bikes with steering geometer that allows easy and responsive steering, but puts them right at the edge of bar shake so worn parts or misloading will bring it on.

That reminds me, I saw that happen at the sand dunes once. Riders on cycles were going across a flooded area when one rider touched down with the front tire a little heavy. I was impressed he held onto it. He went a good 60’ with those bars hammering him faster than a person could move them

 

[CantWrite]

I was commuting home one morning circa 2019 and what looked like a brand new megacab dually 4x Laramie still with temp plates was in front of me. Just as we passed centennial ranch and Billy creek he went through a case of death wobble. Man it was crazy to watch from behind on a slight bend. I would have turned around and driven straight back to the dealer!!

@d24tdi going off memory here, but pretty sure the draglink on my square body Chevy ‘91 V2500 burb) goes fore-aft. That things needs a suspension rebuild at 179k. Never have experienced death wobble and all my local roads are 40-60 mph with lots of upsetting bumps. Thanks for that post, lots of good info.

I know Chevy put the shackles on the rear of the front leafs. Not sure about ford or dodge.

 

[pkhoury]

I just watched a few youtube videos of death wobble. I don't think I've experienced that myself, but it looks scary as f**k, especially at highway speeds.

 

[oilhammer]

I worked next to a guy who was a Jeep expert (probably why he drove a Toyota) who had worked at a local off road place called Axleboy. He knew a lot about it. They key is the caster changing violently as the coil sprung axle twists back and forth, which is why leaf sprung axles don't (CAN'T) experience the same thing. You may experience something similar, but not this. Kinda like that grocery cart that gets that jimmy-leg front wheel that starts going nuts as you roll forward across the store.

 

[Jeff Strachan]

That's why I gave up looking for a Powerstroke OBS truck, any decent ones sell for about their new MSRP. Ended up driving to Texas to get a decent rust-free '97 and it has 8 spark plugs, and was less than half the price. Yeah, 10 MPG sucks, but luckily I rarely need to drive it, and it is reliable and still has its original lifetime transmission still working fine.

Not gonna lie, though, when I'm pulling a hill with a trailer into a headwind, I miss my old 7.3L diesel. That thing didn't care. Headwind, trailer, overloaded trailer, extra trailer full of fat chicks, didn't care. Did. Not. Care. And it could somehow use no more fuel than my 6 cyl half ton, LOL. But, it had a pedal deficiency and therefor I could not trust it any more than a 3-year-old in a candy store.

Fire up my '93 F350 crew cab 7.3 idi turbo every now and then. My COUNTY requires I get tested every year, not by the state, but by independent shops. Hasn't been on the road in many years. >7? 8?.
"I hate this planet" I live in Jefferson County, Colorado. Where we just voted against school choice and for unlimited abortion rights. Tried to get Trump off the ballot and it's illegal for a guy to question his son's sex.

 

[CantWrite]

Fire up my '93 F350 crew cab 7.3 idi turbo every now and then. My COUNTY requires I get tested every year, not by the state, but by independent shops. Hasn't been on the road in many years. >7? 8?.

I would love to have one of those!! Did you take it off the road cause of failing the test? Figured you could turn down the pump to test, and back up the rest of the time.

I have a ‘92 E350 NA and I can black out the sun up here. So I don’t let anyone drive it but me as I watch the mirror on climbs.

 

[pkhoury]

I would love to have one of those!! Did you take it off the road cause of failing the test? Figured you could turn down the pump to test, and back up the rest of the time.

I have a ‘92 E350 NA and I can black out the sun up here. So I don’t let anyone drive it but me as I watch the mirror on climbs.

I've heard some interesting things about those older IDI diesels. The guy I bought both of my Ford tractors from used to be active on here - @SoTxBill, and I think he said he either owned a 6.9 or 7.3 IDI at some point, and mentioned that WOT at 65mph, the sky was dark.

I almost bought a 1994 F-350 with a 7.3 IDI, by the same government entity I bought my 1995 F-450 from (which has the T444E in it), but I remember bidding ended around $7K - it had about 40k original miles on it.

 

[Jeff Strachan]

I would love to have one of those!! Did you take it off the road cause of failing the test? Figured you could turn down the pump to test, and back up the rest of the time.

I have a ‘92 E350 NA and I can black out the sun up here. So I don’t let anyone drive it but me as I watch the mirror on climbs.

No choice. Yes. Didn't pass this arbitrary "opacity" test. Never did. Well, maybe after I dropped a 20. Total BS. And $90 bucks a pop to test. Same with my ALH Golf, but it always passes. Although, they won't test it with a CEL. A couple years ago I had a problem that was coding as some coolant problem but turned out to be a low batt. situation. Just replaced my alternator and a lot of "things" have gone away.
But the truck... runs great. It's that IH unit, not a powerstroke. The emission standards didn't even exist when this truck was built. Tell that to the purple haired girl at the DMV.
Oh, yeah, I turned the pump down. I'm at altitude anyways. But, I'm dealing with a local shop, right? Not the state run emissions stations with 8 bays and air conditioned glassed in waiting areas and cameras and monitors where you can see... And only 28 bucks.
Anyway, looks like states/counties can make up their own rules as long as they're "safer" than the Feds'. Like my state has decided that 15 round mags are enough.

 

[pkhoury]

No choice. Yes. Didn't pass this arbitrary "opacity" test. Never did. Well, maybe after I dropped a 20. Total BS. And $90 bucks a pop to test. Same with my ALH Golf, but it always passes. Although, they won't test it with a CEL. A couple years ago I had a problem that was coding as some coolant problem but turned out to be a low batt. situation. Just replaced my alternator and a lot of "things" have gone away.
But the truck... runs great. It's that IH unit, not a powerstroke. The emission standards didn't even exist when this truck was built. Tell that to the purple haired girl at the DMV.
Oh, yeah, I turned the pump down. I'm at altitude anyways. But, I'm dealing with a local shop, right? Not the state run emissions stations with 8 bays and air conditioned glassed in waiting areas and cameras and monitors where you can see... And only 28 bucks.
Anyway, looks like states/counties can make up their own rules as long as they're "safer" than the Feds'. Like my state has decided that 15 round mags are enough.

Technically, the Powerstroke is still an IH motor - the T444E. Both are the same displacement, but very different motors.

One reason I'm glad I'm in Texas - diesels are exempt from all emissions standards. Still cracks me up the number of times I've been pulled over for having too much soot on my license plate, always given a warning, and then the cop wants to talk mods and shop (and several times, tells me about their straight piped, lifted diesel truck).

 

[dieseldonato]

I don't suppose that front track bar happens to be a gas cylinder connected to the steering, does it? I have that on my truck, but the nut that held onto the piston fell off years ago and I haven't got around to replacing it.

Ha, I've heard from so many others that the only good thing about 90s Dodge trucks was the 12 valve Cummins, and that everything else surrounding it was pure crap. I've been pretty satisfied with my Powerstroke, even if it's not the fastest diesel truck out there. Certainly better than the shortcomings of the GMC 6.5L (I sold that about two or three years ago for $2800 and took a massive loss, just to get it the hell out of my life).

I've had a 90 w250 cummins and a 94 2500 cummins. the 90 was a better, if less powerful truck. Turned the key and it ran, the 94 always had some sort of issue with the front end. I only ran that truck for a short time till the cummins came out and got transplanted in my 79 f350.

The track bar I'm referring to is only about a foot long, goes from the middle of the engine cross member and hooks to the passenger side of the axle. I can't remember if it had a factory steering stabilizer or not off the top of my head.

 

[Rob Mayercik]

I don't suppose that front track bar happens to be a gas cylinder connected to the steering, does it? I have that on my truck, but the nut that held onto the piston fell off years ago and I haven't got around to replacing it.

That's actually just a special type of shock absorber, typically referred to as a steering stabilizer. Main purpose is to damp out vibrations that could lead to Death Wobble if unchecked, but it won't cure the full Wobble.

The Track Bar as noted previously, is a solid bar link that runs (at least in solid axle Jeeps anyway) from a driver's side frame mount to the passenger side of the front axle. Since most OEM coil-sprung suspensions use parallel control arms, the Track Bar is required to center the axle under the vehicle and prevent side-side motion, otherwise you have to go in the direction of a "double-triangulated" arm system where the lower arms are narrower at the frame/wider at the axle and the upper ones are the opposite, creating the same side-side rigidity as an OEM 5-link (4 control arms plus Track Bar).

n.b.: Track Bars are also known in some circles as "Panhard Rods".

I just watched a few youtube videos of death wobble. I don't think I've experienced that myself, but it looks scary as f**k, especially at highway speeds.

Yep, sure is. I once had a very mild form of it on my Cherokee, and that was more than enough. Typically, though, it tends to happen in a narrow speed band so it is possible to neutralize it by slowing down (if you have the ability to do so when it occurs).

 

[User name: Required]

If company’s start making the power trains too reliable, everyone will drive the same sh!t boxes around for 100 years

 

[privateTDIjet]

If company’s start making the power trains too reliable, everyone will drive the same sh!t boxes around for 100 years

So im fine with replacing few parts here and there over the years but to have them locked behind special tools that cost 200$+ that'll be used ONCE and obscure, undocumented procedures? No thanks

 

[GBaugh]

I wish these darn emissions aftertreatment engineers would spend their time on something worthwhile like figuring out the Bermuda Triangle mystery instead of figuring out how to derate us or how to deadline our vehicles in the shop for months at a time.

Political influences can change in 4 years and it takes a long time for OEMs to implement production design changes. I think its pretty unlikely that OEMs are going to make any emissions related changes since they are going to be focused farther down the road than a 4 year political office term.

I think its fascinating, and sad, that prices of these older used non-aftertreatment vehicles are so high but its the basic law of supply/demand. I think there's increased demand for the older used stuff because so many people are tired of having their derated car brought into the shop on the rollback for the tenth time so the smart ones seek out the older used stuff and of course there's a limited supply as these legacy vehicles accumate wear and tear.
My big takeway is that we can all be really darn grateful for our knowledge and repair abilities whether with the new or old stuff. I can only imagine the massive financial burden of having to rely on someone else to diagnose/repair.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

We just had to use VCDS to run multiple forced NOX regens on my son's '11 JSW. His thermostat failed (not inexpensive to buy or install, btw), and after the car couldn't complete a NOX regen on its own, and the DPF light wouldn't go out. It took multiple attempts and finally about 200 miles of driving in regen to get it to extinguish. But no hardware replacement needed. I can only imagine what it would have cost to have a dealer or repair shop do what we did. And they'd probably want to replace the NOX CAT, which now costs $3K.

 

[User name: Required]

So im fine with replacing few parts here and there over the years but to have them locked behind special tools that cost 200$+ that'll be used ONCE and obscure, undocumented procedures? No thanks

So im fine with replacing few parts here and there over the years but to have them locked behind special tools that cost 200$+ that'll be used ONCE and obscure, undocumented procedures? No thanks

%100

 

[Rob Mayercik]

I wish these darn emissions aftertreatment engineers would spend their time on something worthwhile like figuring out the Bermuda Triangle mystery instead of figuring out how to derate us or how to deadline our vehicles in the shop for months at a time.

Yeah, a "serviceable" DPF that could be cleaned a couple times (or at least one that is closer to the price of an oil change than a transmission) seems like a worthwhile pursuit to me.

 

[bendenvor111]

That’s a huge shakeup if it holds, especially with the Congressional Review aspect — that adds teeth well beyond a typical executive order. Overturning EPA standards through Congress means it’s not just temporary policy whiplash, but a structural reset, at least for now. If the California CARB waivers are truly revoked, that’s going to ripple hard through the auto and energy sectors. California’s standards have historically driven national design choices just because of the market size, so removing that incentive could lead to a serious shift in manufacturing priorities.


As for a diesel renaissance — maybe in some sectors like commercial fleets, ag, or construction where Tier 4 emissions compliance has been a burden. But for consumer diesel? That genie’s probably not going back in the bottle completely. The stigma and regulations from the post-Dieselgate era still linger, and the electrification push is way too far along in global markets for OEMs to pivot hard back toward diesel for light-duty applications.


More likely, we’ll see a loosening of emissions constraints on heavy-duty vehicles and more flexibility in how fuel economy is calculated — maybe some resurgence in diesel hybrids or retrofits in industries where electric just isn’t viable yet. The real kicker will be how the states respond legally and whether the next administration tries to reassert the waivers or challenge the rollback. Either way, this isn’t just policy — it’s a philosophical reset on federal environmental authority.

 

[dieseldonato]

Its not a reset, no regulations were pulled back that will affect the common man. Deletes are still illegal and tier4f emissioned engines arnt going to dissappear or stopp being produced, and last I checked the more stringent tier 5 is still on course to be implemented. Ie, there wont be any Renaissance of diesel. Its wishful thinking at best that we'll see any tangible benefits before the next administration, or the one after gets into the white house.

 

[tikal]

I do not think there's any cost-benefit room for the diesel hybrid technology to become anything above noise in the news.

On the other hand, I expect continuous growth of gasoline hybrid vehicles, specially in the favorite mode of transportation in the US: medium size SUVs and CUVs, and perhaps some smaller trucks.

 

[atc98002]

I do not think there's any cost-benefit room for the diesel hybrid technology to become anything above noise in the news.

The biggest issue with a diesel hybrid is the time it takes to warm the engine, especially if it's not under load. Many hybrids (and especially PHEVs) fire their engine for limited lengths of time. And we all know that a diesel running at near idle can take a very long time to warm the oil. One thing that would benefit the diesel with a hybrid is that almost all of them use the generator as the starter motor, so there's no real wear to a starter from the constant stop/start conditions. But with today's higher diesel cost (most stations around me price D2 at premium gas level or higher) the fuel efficiency of the diesel engine really doesn't pan out for the costs involved.

 

[K5FAL]

What will these deregulations do for diesel crate engines? I have a 2010 Jeep with the mighty Chrysler 3.8 minivan motor. It’s a sound canidate for a swap if I don’t have to pay for the EGR/DPF bullsh##

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

What will these deregulations do for diesel crate engines? I have a 2010 Jeep with the mighty Chrysler 3.8 minivan motor. It’s a sound canidate for a swap if I don’t have to pay for the EGR/DPF bullsh##

So far the "deregulations" seem to only affect future vehicles, the administration is trying to save auto and truck makers billions and doesn't give a damn about us and our old cars.

 

[dieseldonato]

What will these deregulations do for diesel crate engines? I have a 2010 Jeep with the mighty Chrysler 3.8 minivan motor. It’s a sound canidate for a swap if I don’t have to pay for the EGR/DPF bullsh##

Nothing, any engine still need to (at least) meet the vehicles model year emissions requirements.

 

[K5FAL]

Well that really sucks. Another niche group they’re blowing off are gun owners who want NFA reform, but that’s way off topic. Point is, keep alienating all these different small groups and eventually they become one big group of voters, unmotivated to keep them in power.

But $57 trillion in debt is ok even though they claimed they would be different than the other guys. They are all one big garbage uniparty. And evidently all believe in Modern Monetary Theory so don’t be surprised when we wake up living in a 3rd world country soon.