EPA Just Deregulated Diesel Emissions Standards

CantWrite

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2021
Location
Placerville CO
TDI
2005 Passat Wagon (BHW/5-spd conv, 03T). I keep in touch with the (2) ALH's I sold.
From a layman’s perspective.

sometimes I wonder if the overall pollution was just shifted from tail pipes to mining/manufacturing/delivery of all these emission system components, packaging, fluids, etc.

a smoke and mirrors game if you will. In the grand scheme did emissions really get reduced?

why couldn’t they just use precision fuel control and not add a bunch of failure prone emissions equipment?
 

dieseldonato

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2023
Location
Us
TDI
2001 jetta
It's funny, before we decided on the Bobcat, we were looking at some other brands. The Kubota was probably the nicest, honestly, but it was also one of the most expensive. But the Deere we looked at, hah, the salesman was telling us about the emissions stuff and that John Deere (who was sued, BTW) really tries hard to stop any tampering. But, the guy at the New Holland dealer flat told us "yeah, once it is out of warranty, and it breaks, we can just remove that stuff". So, they literally already KNOW it is a problem, and they know how to "fix" it. Which, again, is why the regs become so silly.
Kubota makes a nice machine, deer sucks in a lot of ways. We demoed one when our new Holland caught fire. Cab sucked to sit in, sucked to service, didn't have good feel on the sticks and the controls for the mill head were all over the place. I would have liked to run a New Holland/case machine but the boss was stuck on deer on kubota.
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
I wonder if the, consistently lower cost of fuel in the US, has anything to do with general public (outside TDI forums) not interested so much in smaller vehicles such as wagons (vs SUVs) and smaller trucks you see in other parts of the world?
 

wxman

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 26, 1999
Location
East TN, USA
TDI
Other Diesel
To expand on the overregulation of NOx issue a little more...

- At least five independent studies conducted during the coronavirus lockdown in 2020 documented that ambient NO2 levels decreased significantly, but ambient ozone levels either stayed the same or increased in all cases, some dramatically.

- Secondary organic aerosol (SOA) production may dramatically increase as NOx emissions are decreased according to a study by Carnegie-Mellon University.

- A Chinese study revealed that medium-high ambient NOx levels may inhibit sulfate formation.

- A NASA study revealed that reductions in ambient NOx levels due to COVID19 lockdowns allowed ambient CH4 to accumulate more. CH4 is a potent GHG.

- A European study found that health risks associated with PM2.5 were estimated to be lower in countries where nitrates were high in the concentration mix.

Also, the latest EPA LD emission regs (Tier 4) reduce ambient criteria pollutants by 2055 that are so small, they're below the sensitivity of monitoring equipment to detect. That's according to modeling projections by EPA itself!
 

privateTDIjet

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2022
Location
Montreal, Canada
TDI
2009 Jetta 2.0 TDI and 2014 Passat 2.0 TDI
Hear me out.... world's first TDI sportswagen pickup conversion factory. (Delete included for the first 100 people!)
 

sloinker

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2015
Location
Casper, Wyoming
TDI
'15 Sportwagen '15 Golf Hatch
I'm all for prudent emission standards. Acid rain, burning rivers, dimwitted children due to mercury ingestion, even greenhouse gases. These are real things. I remember the filthy haze in the California skies when I was a kid. Smog was fierce. There is always push back when there is change. I can remember the complaints when seatbelt use became mandatory. Grumbling when leaded gas was phased out. Blood alcohol content for DUI dropping to .10 and then .08 In retrospect these changes are good for me and my neighbors. The issue with more stringent rules is that it isn't feasible or accomplishes the intended goals in many cases. Cause and effect is real, being smart about regulating the causes seems to be overkill or denial in our current political landscape. Can't win.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I wonder if the, consistently lower cost of fuel in the US, has anything to do with general public (outside TDI forums) not interested so much in smaller vehicles such as wagons (vs SUVs) and smaller trucks you see in other parts of the world?
Cheap fuel and manufacturer marketing. Consumers are convinced that they need to sit higher in a vehicle to be safe, and that they need AWD, even where it doesn't snow and people don't go off road. Small station wagons? Forget about it.

It's hard for me to believe that driving a heavy EV with rare minerals in it is greener than it would be to drive something like a VW Polo or Up!, either gas or diesel.
 

d24tdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Location
MT
TDI
BHW x3, BEW x2, ALH x2, AHU, 1Z, AFB, AKN, BCZ, BDH
Agree. One can argue about whether it's the fault of the manufacturers "convincing" the consumer that they need those things, or whether it's consumer demand being what it is and the mfrs just selling what folks are wanting to buy. None of this stuff would sell (including the $100k pickups) if people were not choosing to spend their/the bank's money on them -- no one is forced to do that. Although small wagons and diesel engines and such are not prevalent in the marketplace, they have existed as alternatives over the years when automakers have experimented with what might have interest. (Beyond TDIs, thinking about GM's Cruze and Equinox diesels, Jeep's CRD models, etc.) None have found a big audience. We can say options are limited for things outside the mainstream, but they're not nonexistent; alternatives do come and go. The fact that the public mostly gives them a shrug is what I think gets us where we are. At some point the automakers can't be blamed for producing the products that sell, like any business needs to.

As you point out, cheap fuel is a huge driver of this, since unlike folks in Europe/elsewhere, those on this continent don't have as much price incentive to be smart about what they drive. (Though I would argue that gas and diesel here are still plenty expensive enough to make a big difference in folks' monthly finances if they are putting a lot of miles on a Tahoe vs a Jetta so there should be more respect for efficiency than there is.) Needless to say, cranking up fuel prices to send an economic signal that will change consumer choice is political suicide so we'll never see that done intentionally.

Availability of extreme long term auto financing is also part of the picture here, I think, but that's a different conversation.

We talked about this in another thread already, but the other key point when it comes to EV's, IMHO, is that not all of them are created equal. I don't think it's fair to compare a "heavy EV" to a Polo, any more than it's fair to compare a Suburban to a Polo. What we lack here for EV choices is the same thing that we have always lacked for ICE vehicle choices: excellent products in the smaller/lighter end of the range that find wide enthusiasm from consumers. In the ICE world the benefit is they use fewer materials to build and use less fuel in operation; in the EV world, it's far less use of those rare minerals, which can be spread out over three or four small 100mi range cars vs one Silverado EV or Cybertruck, and then less consumption of electricity in operation, less hogging of charging resources, etc. Those smaller options -- call them the Polo TDIs of the EV world -- have existed in the market, actually were more or less the most prevalent variants for a while there (Leafs, e-Golfs, Fiats, Focuses, Sparks, etc) but never sold well and mostly failed quickly and disappeared.... Whereas heavier and more wasteful options have found big markets. Sounds familiar eh.

New car buyers are either dropping a massive amount of cash and/or signing up for a lot of interest under financing, on something that will depreciate quickly. I think part of their unspoken/unthought logic is that if they're gonna accept all that financial pain, at least they want to buy something that will happily perform for ANYTHING they MIGHT conceivably do. They're not buying the most logical means of getting to work and back -- they're buying something that has the ground clearance and AWD to get through the one snowy day or trip to a trailhead they might see in a year, or to tow the one heavy trailer they'll ever tow, or to take the 3000 mile road trip in their EV that they'll do once during the years they own it. It's the same sickness whether we're talking gassers or diesels or EVs.
 

ZippyNH

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Location
Southern NH
TDI
2015 JETTA TDI SE
Cummins making the 6.7 liter B series EGR free may have been at the behest of VW Group AKA Traton owned Scania. They offer the B series to supplement their line of 9 to 16 liter diesels which are also EGR free. Scania also has an interesting hybrid using the Cummins B series or their own 9 liter diesel that's rated for up to 36 metric tons GCW, which neatly translates to our 80,000 pound Interstate weight limit.
Driven the little Mercedes 9 liter "bus" engine that could be uprated to run in otr trucks....it's claim to fame was VERY LOW WEIGHT
This low weight allowed larger loads that made hauling commodity items like beer, bottled water, etc economically possible because of larger loads. The engines were in a Freightliner Columbia mid-top sleeper...it got the job done...kinda gutless but not sure many other truck could legally Haul 53,000 pound load, and that was with conventional tires, no super single singles. Pretty sure newer emissions rules killed off that engine option....
Many companies have truck that are "modified" and typically these vehicles unofficially are kept out of NJ and California...the only place that (at the time) did emissions testing at weight stations regularly to ensure compliance.
 

d24tdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Location
MT
TDI
BHW x3, BEW x2, ALH x2, AHU, 1Z, AFB, AKN, BCZ, BDH
Yep. It's interesting to see what some of the heavy on-road manufacturers are doing with "lightweighting" components. Everything from steer axle beams to 5th wheel plates can be ordered in aluminum now, and the smaller displacement engines (down to 10-11 liters) that are more and more often seen in line haul fleet applications are doing exactly what you say. Every pound of truck and engine that doesn't need to haul itself around is another pound of payload that can be carried with the same total GVW. The smaller engines that work harder and keep the exhaust hotter, vs a 14L or 15L that's loafing along during highway cruise, seems to help the DPFs stay happier too, less regen activity. With good gear ratio management they seem to keep up OK in terms of power with the smaller engines, though on a flat out climb up the Continental Divide I'm sure the big block rigs will still run away. Longevity with a smaller engine running harder all the time is a question.

In the medium-duty realm we're seeing some similar trends too. Gasoline engines are selling more and more numbers each passing year. Ford's 7.3L Godzilla is taking a huge market share and is available even in Class 8 rigs, Isuzu is now offering the GM 6.6L up to Class 5 chassis, and Cummins will have its gas B6.7 out later this year in Class 4-6 Kenworths and others. No emissions aftertreatment and general simplicity of design is a huge driving factor, and much lower upfront and maintenance cost (including engine overhaul/replacement cost) also play into it. But weight is an important one too. If you compare a Class 6 truck chassis with a Cummins diesel that weighs 2000 lbs once you take into account all the accessories (turbo, aftertreatment, charge air cooler and plumbing, much heavier base engine, etc), and then you put it up against a Ford MD chassis with a simple/compact/lightweight naturally aspirated pushrod gas V8 that has none of those additional accessories and saves 1000-1200 lbs off the total vehicle unladen weight..... Then there you have another 1000-1200 lbs of available payload. That's probably about 10% increase in working capacity if you're talking about a truck that is intended to run just under the 26k lb CDL threshold and has an empty weight of around 15k lbs.

Even if it comes at some MPG penalty, if you calculate commercial vehicle fuel economy the way operators actually think about it -- which is not "miles per gallon" but "ton-miles per gallon" representing not just distance traveled but the amount of cargo that is moved a given distance with that amount of fuel -- you see the lightweight gasser come out ahead pretty quick, thanks to that extra payload capacity for the same total weight. And then you take into account the cheaper fuel and not dealing with modern diesel emissions operational headaches and maintenance.

As a diesel nut it's painful to have to respect this math, but there it is. For the small fleet I manage, if we ever reach a point where we can't get any more life out of our pre-emission trucks (old Cats and MBE's and DT's pre-2004) or if they get regulated out of viable existence, the only brand-new platform I can imagine looking at is the Ford 650 with the gas engine.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The other thing is a lot of these gas engines are flat worn out in a much shorter time. The gas school buses around here are easy to tell... they leave oil smoke puffs behind them after every stop light. GM V8s today struggle to stay together moving a pickup. Pushing a school bus is a lot worse, but they've managed to avoid some of the AFM garbage on the 12k+ GVWR engines.

Funny, there are probably loads of DT466 powered IH buses running around Guatemala today, that will easily outlive anything that came after, LOL...
 

ZippyNH

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Location
Southern NH
TDI
2015 JETTA TDI SE
Yep. It's interesting to see what some of the heavy on-road manufacturers are doing with "lightweighting" components. Everything from steer axle beams to 5th wheel plates can be ordered in aluminum now, and the smaller displacement engines (down to 10-11 liters) that are more and more often seen in line haul fleet applications are doing exactly what you say. Every pound of truck and engine that doesn't need to haul itself around is another pound of payload that can be carried with the same total GVW. ...
Yeah...we had a couple trailers that were very closely watched that had titanium kingpin plates...and sidewall skins that were much thinner than normal, company openly said if they got 8-10 years of life they would be happy vs the old plate trailers that could last 30 if you wanted...only made economic sense to even test them cause there was hope they could have a new trailer built around base plates but since they needed 24/7 gps tracking cause trailers can and do go missing think the program was very short lived. But working for a smaller fleet (350 ish) power units with zero debt, the owner was more flexible than many in trying unconventional ways to make or save $. Unlike many places they treated drivers decently and most of us reciprocated back. Understand the company was sold to a Canadian firm a few years back, so bet things have changed.
 

ZippyNH

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Location
Southern NH
TDI
2015 JETTA TDI SE
The other thing is a lot of these gas engines are flat worn out in a much shorter time. The gas school buses around here are easy to tell... they leave oil smoke puffs behind them after every stop light. GM V8s today struggle to stay together moving a pickup. Pushing a school bus is a lot worse, but they've managed to avoid some of the AFM garbage on the 12k+ GVWR engines.

Funny, there are probably loads of DT466 powered IH buses running around Guatemala today, that will easily outlive anything that came after, LOL...
Funny story...a picture of one of the old trucks (blue truck with an orange logo) of the company I am talking about, appeared on the news, behind the reporter in Havana, company logo and all, pulling a Cuban bus trailer, 😂. Because of "modifications" many used vehicles were typically exported. After that they removed them before export. The export or destruction part isn't that uncommon, even UPS does it too.
With most local school districts switching to contract operators the math now says they just keep buses for as few as 5-7 years, often 10-15 years before they can't be used in any contract
Has caused a shift in how buses are equipped.
 

PradoTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Location
MT
TDI
1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
The deregulation won't change anything for 25+ year old imports, since they were already exempt from emissions standards in original configuration. In theory it could make it easier for new offerings to come to market, except with damage that the emissions scandal did to public perception and the new 25% tariffs on auto imports I doubt we will see anything from overseas manufacturers any time soon. Unfortunately the 25% import duties apply to vehicles over 25 years old too, so it makes even less sense to import now than it did a few months ago.
 

d24tdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Location
MT
TDI
BHW x3, BEW x2, ALH x2, AHU, 1Z, AFB, AKN, BCZ, BDH
Unfortunately the 25% import duties apply to vehicles over 25 years old too, so it makes even less sense to import now than it did a few months ago.
That is a massive bummer if that is the case. I have heard some people speculate that it might be only applicable to new vehicles but sounds like you know the answer is that it will affect old vehicles too.

Ironic sad timing for probably many of us (me at least) that this would happen just at the moment when a handful of very desirable and also very affordable models are becoming eligible for import.

At least the 25% increase will presumably apply to the purchase value of the car, not its original new sales price? If so not the end of the world, that's 25% on a few thousand Euro to buy the vehicle. A large part of the import cost is the service and freight to get it here, hopefully those are unaffected.
 

PradoTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Location
MT
TDI
1991 Toyota LandCruiser LJ78 with ALH Swap
While it doesn't explicitly state that it applies to used vehicles, the executive order makes no distinction between new and used. I suspect the used vehicle import market is small enough in comparison with that of new vehicles it did not warrant special attention. The duties charged are based on the purchase price of the item and don't include any import or shipping costs.
 

turbodieseldyke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Location
Free Mustache Rides
TDI
Big ol' honkin' tdis
Don't they have test tracks in Europe so foreigners can fly there, drive their new car a few miles, then park it a few months, then have it shipped home as a "used" car? Something i heard of years ago.
 

d24tdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Location
MT
TDI
BHW x3, BEW x2, ALH x2, AHU, 1Z, AFB, AKN, BCZ, BDH
Various manufacturers had "European delivery" programs that allowed a North American customer to order a new car in their desired specs from their friendly local dealer, fly overseas, pick up the car from somewhere close to where it was manufactured, cruise around Europe for whatever length of time they wanted in their own vehicle, then drop the car off at a port for shipment overseas when done.

Volvo's program was probably the most well known or at least the one I am most familiar with. I owned quite a few older model Volvos over the years that had "European Delivery" program badges in the window showing they were originally picked up that way. Kind of cool to look in the service books on a couple of those cars and see that the initial 600 mile break-in service was done at a Volvo dealer in France or Austria or wherever who stamped the book in a different language. I have also personally known a few people who did the Euro program, spread over many decades, including someone who did it for a new 145 back in the early '70s, and then worked for a guy just a few years ago who had done it around 2015 with a new XC60. So it was still active as of a few years ago.

Pretty sure Saab, BMW, Audi, Porsche, maybe others, had similar programs available over the years but I don't think they ran as long and not sure how much of it still exists at all. I would have to guess even Volvo's program is probably defunct now that many of their models are made in China rather than Sweden/Belgium.

Either way though I doubt that would make a difference on the tariff application since they were still purchasing a new car. I would guess the purchase was all processed by the US dealer anyway.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I'm not sure European Delivery programs exist any longer. I know a friend of mine was bugging me to get a BMW 328d in 2015 or thereabouts, but the program ended during COVID. Not sure if any other manufacturers still do it.

Just bear in mind that when it comes to cars and parts from outside the US (which is almost everything), the tide just rose a bit. Everything is going to cost more, at least in the near term. Unless someone changes his mind. Again.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
In the '60s and '70s, even into the '80s, it was common for US customers to pick up their new camper at Westfaliawerk where they were converted, drive all over Europe, then have it shipped back home. During the years that US spec cars had catalysts, there was a tube installed instead (but on the US spec exhaust system) because unleaded gasoline could not be guaranteed available everywhere. The catalysts were in a box under the back seat, and were reinstalled at US PDI.

That specific pipe had a part number that was a trivia question at a local event years ago. Yes, an official "delete pipe" from Volkswagen themselves. :D
 

gearheadgrrrl

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2002
Location
Buffalo Ridge (southwest Minnesota)
TDI
'15 Golf DSG, '13 JSW DSG surrendered to VW, '03 Golf 2 door manual
IIRC the Volvo program may still exist. Read recently of an American teacher who took a summer teaching gig in Europe in the 1980s and took delivery of a VW Cabriolet there, intending to bring it back after the summer. Turned into a full time job and she built a whole family in Europe, returned to the US last year and VW dutifully shipped her Cabriolet back.

Neatest part of the story is that the EU let her drive a US spec car there for nearly 4 decades, it's a major battle just to get a permit to test/exhibit an EU spec car here in the US for just one year!
 

d24tdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Location
MT
TDI
BHW x3, BEW x2, ALH x2, AHU, 1Z, AFB, AKN, BCZ, BDH
So I guess you can take delivery on your China assembled Volvo in Sweden. :)

It's a mad world eh.

This was a program that logistically made sense when they first offered it, for Volvos built in Gothenburg or Kalmar. Hard to see how it's logical for a Chinese built car and an American owner to rendezvous in Europe but I suppose in the modern interconnected (for now?) world it's not so difficult.

Kind of nice to see Volvo still carrying on the tradition either way. I can't imagine it's really anything that adds to their economics, especially considering that they still say the freight back to the US at the end is complimentary. (That's after having first shipped the car from China to Sweden? Maybe they only offer all this for the Swedish built models? I think there still are some built there)

But maybe it does help them secure a few sales, between the unique opportunity for travel plus the big sales pitch and promotion they get to put on by hosting a customer at the corporate base who will then tell an exciting story to others when they get home and maybe do a little word of mouth marketing. The guy I mentioned working for who picked up his XC60 overseas a few years ago did say once that he more or less chosen a Volvo in order to take advantage of that program. He was no particular Volvo fan so I would guess he might have just as easily ended up in a Mercedes or Lexus or whatever if it hadn't been for the option to get a month of free vacation transportation throughout Europe as part of the new car buy. And he told stories about that trip all the time. Maybe they're smart. Pretty rare that a company gets a chance to really engage a customer in their story this way.

It would be interesting to know how many American buyers still take advantage of that program each year.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Cannot say I have ever seen a Volvo from China here. The only Chinese made car I know of sold here is the Buick Envision. Quick search of our system here pulls up every Volvo VIN starting with the good ol' Y. But I did look at the STL Auction site, and sure enough there are a few Volvos there with VINs that start with L. So maybe it is limited to what they build there?
 

ZippyNH

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Location
Southern NH
TDI
2015 JETTA TDI SE
Unfortunately VIN'S aren't perfect..
BMW 's assembled in north America have German vin#'s. Gotta look at the sticker too. Know you know that, but just pointing it out since many manufacturers are not using locally assigned vin#'s with generally accepted procedures
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The US-assembled knock-down cars will carry the VIN code of the original country of manufacture. That's pretty typical... like the Sprinters that were shipped here partially built, and finished in South Carolina to avoid the Chicken Tax. They still carry the W VIN code, even though they were not completely assembled in Dusseldorf. This is why Fiat decided they would just build the Promaster (a rebadged Fiat Ducato) in Mexico. No Chicken Tax applied to those due to NAFTA or whatever replaced NAFTA. I suspect BMW is similar.
 

ZippyNH

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Location
Southern NH
TDI
2015 JETTA TDI SE
The US-assembled knock-down cars will carry the VIN code of the original country of manufacture. That's pretty typical... like the Sprinters that were shipped here partially built, and finished in South Carolina to avoid the Chicken Tax. They still carry the W VIN code, even though they were not completely assembled in Dusseldorf. This is why Fiat decided they would just build the Promaster (a rebadged Fiat Ducato) in Mexico. No Chicken Tax applied to those due to NAFTA or whatever replaced NAFTA. I suspect BMW is similar.
Wish it was that simple... BMW claims all cars built in any plant is as good as a German car...and uses the 11th digit as a plant identification worldwide
Tried to find a good summary for ya...
A VIN starting with "W" typically indicates a German-made BMW, but the final location of assembly depends on the 11th digit of the VIN. For example, BMWs built in Germany will have an A, B, D, or E as the 11th digit, while those built in Spartanburg, SC, USA, will have an L. The "W" alone doesn't guarantee German assembly, as BMW also manufactures cars in other countries.
Decoding the BMW VIN:
Digit 1 (WMI - World Manufacturer Identifier): Indicates the country of origin. "W" typically signifies Germany.
Digit 11 (Plant Code): Specifically identifies the manufacturing plant. A, B, D, or E indicate Germany; L indicates Spartanburg, SC.


BMW has taken flack for it, even lots of articles for braking the vin system in some ways. But it's been going on since Spartanburg SC opened. And they are NOT partially assembled cars that are simply finished
 
Top