EPA Just Deregulated Diesel Emissions Standards

[MB2VW]

New Sheriff in town resets the EPA clean air table:

This isn't just an executive order, but cleared via Congressional Review and rejection of EPA Clean Air standards.

California CARB waivers are gone, hence no more federal funding to CA for their draconian standards....

A diesel renaissance coming?

 

[x1800MODMY360x]

This is just federal. States can still enforce their emissions standards as usual.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

And doesn't take effect until the usual publishing in the Federal Register, comment period, etc.. Manufacturers have already invested billions to meet the 2027 standards, so don't expect the return of the ALH, Detroit 60 Series, etc....

 

[Lightflyer1]

It may make it easier for those that live in states that don't test diesels and when it goes into effect maybe more common for people to delete rather than fix the emission stuff. With these cars getting older and less parts available or harder to get, deleting may become more common. Mine is still under warranty for four or five more years and 100,000 mi or so and I will try to hold VW to its agreement to fix all that stuff if it needs fixing. But was going to sell it after the warranty and any issues after that. But now I might keep it if this stays in effect and just delete.

 

[pedroYUL]

So now people can resume buying delete kits from Rawtek...but at 25% tariff, or is it 200%...hard to keep track.

 

[dieseldonato]

Realistically, this won't change much for most people at the state level. States that don't test diesels, won't be likely to go above federal mandates and those thay do will continue to do so.

 

[d24tdi]

I agree with that. And anyway the OEMs have enough invested in the modern tech that there's no way we're ever going backwards.

Plus, the consumer too is now addicted to the functional upsides that have come about in modern diesels as a side benefit to the pursuit of cleaner emissions. There are headaches and high costs to keeping the complex common rail injection and exotic turbo systems etc on the road for the long haul, but everyone knows when those systems work as designed they are stunning in their refinement and performance. People *love* their late model 6.7 Powerstrokes and such, and seem happy to pay what it costs to keep them going. A little like what happened with gas engine technology 30 plus years ago as OEMs worked to meet tailpipe regs and OBD requirements.... In the process of doing that, the engine management systems they created led to a huge step forward in performance too.

As much as many of us would like to see the old tech reborn somehow, I doubt a market exists anymore for 90hp diesel economy cars or deafening loud 215hp diesel pickups like the old 7.3L Powerstrokes had. Great designs in their time, and still great for those of us who like their upsides and still want to run them....... But now that the consumer has tasted 450hp and 1000+ lb ft in his F-250 from the factory with silent operation and clean exhaust, we're not going back there. Not any more than we're gonna see 4-barrel carbed 350ci V8s under the hood of Chevy passenger cars, even if they walk back the regulations enough to allow those too.

 

[oilhammer]

I can rattle off a list of 100 people who disagree with that. Me being #1.

You can probably go inside any Ford, GM, or Ram dealership right now and within 20 minutes find someone disgusted with their newer "clean" trucks because they've already had the cab off three times for $BIGNUM$ repairs and they've not even hit 100k miles.

450hp and 1000tq doesn't mean squat when its loaded on the back of a rollback for the tenth time. You can only go as fast as that Freightliner will carry you.

Not to mention these epic junk-assed slushboxes they curse everything with now. You know it's bad when GM literally RUNS OUT of replacement transmissions and there's a waiting list.

And rest assured, the manufacturers are going to do the least costly thing they can, because they want to sell new cars. If I was shopping for a truck, and one was $50k with less "stuff" on it, and another was $60k, you know which one I'm buying... also, do not assume that all these power gains cannot be applied to engines that do not have some of this stuff on them. EGRs, SCRs, DPFs, etc. do not add power. The modern very precise controlled multivalve commonrail variable turbo diesels can make gobs of power over the old versions just because of their basic design. And they also needn't be stinky and smokey.

 

[d24tdi]

Don't worry, I'm on the list of people who disagree too. Not saying there aren't some folks out there who would prefer to be able to buy something simple and durable and easy to keep going for the long haul.

But in the wider world of the auto market I don't think that group is big enough for the manufacturers to make money catering to. Kind of like how all of us on this forum would have sold a kidney anytime in the last 20 years to be able to buy a factory-built midsize AWD station wagon with a manual gearbox and a simple, low-tech diesel engine putting out, say, 120-150 horsepower..... Our money is still good, but the market has proved again and again that there just aren't enough of us to sustain sales of a model like that -- the general public is not interested at all. Every manufacturer that convinces themselves of the presence of a niche that could be profitable for such a vehicle ends up getting punished when they have to discount that stuff off the lot and ditch the model after one or two years. The real world spends their real money on RAV4s, CRVs, and F150s with Ecoboost gassers (which are also very troublesome for long haul ownership, BUT still sell like crazy due to their performance characteristics, even as there are simpler naturally aspirated V8s on the options sheet as well).

A lot of the NEW vehicle buying market still only keeps its vehicles through the warranty period and then trades in. Those of us looking at used vehicles or maintaining them 10-20 years down the road see a different picture..... But we are not spending much (or any) time or money in new car showrooms and therefore our preferences are not driving the manufacturers decisions at all.

 

[dieseldonato]

In a nut shell, there's no going back.
Manual transmissions went out the door behind diesels, because they dont/won't hold the torque the engines were/are putting out, and Secondly because only a select few want stick transmissions.
You want 15L rig power out of 6-7L engines, you're going to have issues with them. Smokey or clean, doesn't matter. the old axiom "a candle burning twice as bright only lasts half as long, applies here."

 

[tikal]

While I do not disagree with oilhammer, I also see the market forces continue with the previous established emissions requirements as reasoned by dieseldonato and d24tdi.

 

[DuraBioPwr]

For gawd sakes at least get rid of the DEF. The DPFs anymore are not that bad. They do waste fuel, but overall does not add a ton of complexity. The DEF systems and associated heaters and NOx sensors good greif. What a mess.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

DPFs need to be made modular, so (on these cars, at least) the upper DOC can be popped off, then the lower filter can be removed and cleaned, or replaced if cracked. Everything could be serviced from the top, if there wasn't 4 feet of shti all welded together. Unbelieveable that VAG didn't redesign these things, once they got flooded with warranty work.

 

[turbocharged798]

I think get rid of the DPF and DEF nonsense, keep common rail design with good 3 way cat. Lift NOx limits so diesels can do what they do best, run lean. A lean burning common rail will run very clean and make almost no smell. Diesels would be viable again.

The ridiculous PM and NOx limits set by the EPA jerkwads is what's killing the diesel engine and I believe its intentional. PM size limits are just stupid as large particles fall to the ground a pose no health hazard. Its the ultrafine particles that are the problem and gassers emit plenty of those. Common sense needs to prevail here. No visible smoke, and minimal smell.

I do think that some sort of emission standard is necessary but not at the extreme we have taken it to in the last 10-20 year.

 

[oilhammer]

For gawd sakes at least get rid of the DEF. The DPFs anymore are not that bad. They do waste fuel, but overall does not add a ton of complexity. The DEF systems and associated heaters and NOx sensors good greif. What a mess.

That's the thing, the DPFs don't get the soot loading (and thus as many regens) on SCR-equipped diesels. Because SCR is a NOx-reduction strategy that happens POST combustion. SCR lets the engine itself run leaner, which means more NOx.

If they'd relax some of the NOx limits, the DPFs alone could do fine. And the PM would drop, because diesels CAN run so darn lean that they won't stink/smoke/smell and UNlike a gas engine will really return some crazy good fuel economy.

If you let a VAG/Bosch engineer go with the mantra of "make an engine consume as little fuel as possible, with low CO2 and PM and HC emissions, with the current technology available, and not worry about the NOx", we'd have a 1.6L engine making 150hp and delivering a solid repeatable 65 MPG in a Golf or Jetta sized car with a squeaky clean white glove tailpipe that you stick your face at the ass end of the car and not even know it was running any more than a warm breeze.

But because the EPA has taken the "round peg in a square hole" approach, we get diesels that get cursed with trying to meet draconian NOx limits that gassers can, but no gasser is expected to come close to meeting the CO2/PM/HC limits that diesels can. Remember, the "cheating dirty diesels" when in this boogieman cheat mode were emitting single digits... single digits... of the allowable percentages of the other emissions, and those are the ones that also are tied directly to fuel consumption. So think about that. This same logic is why we cannot buy 50+ MPG TDIs here, but 15 MPG Suburbans are perfectly fine. Because those are "clean". It's dumb. But, whatever. I'll just have to keep driving my 20+ year old cars instead. Good job, EPA, you've made sure a bunch of older cars stay on the road indefinitely. Well done. Idiots.

 

[dieseldonato]

That's the thing, the DPFs don't get the soot loading (and thus as many regens) on SCR-equipped diesels. Because SCR is a NOx-reduction strategy that happens POST combustion. SCR lets the engine itself run leaner, which means more NOx.

If they'd relax some of the NOx limits, the DPFs alone could do fine. And the PM would drop, because diesels CAN run so darn lean that they won't stink/smoke/smell and UNlike a gas engine will really return some crazy good fuel economy.

If you let a VAG/Bosch engineer go with the mantra of "make an engine consume as little fuel as possible, with low CO2 and PM and HC emissions, with the current technology available, and not worry about the NOx", we'd have a 1.6L engine making 150hp and delivering a solid repeatable 65 MPG in a Golf or Jetta sized car with a squeaky clean white glove tailpipe that you stick your face at the ass end of the car and not even know it was running any more than a warm breeze.

But because the EPA has taken the "round peg in a square hole" approach, we get diesels that get cursed with trying to meet draconian NOx limits that gassers can, but no gasser is expected to come close to meeting the CO2/PM/HC limits that diesels can. Remember, the "cheating dirty diesels" when in this boogieman cheat mode were emitting single digits... single digits... of the allowable percentages of the other emissions, and those are the ones that also are tied directly to fuel consumption. So think about that. This same logic is why we cannot buy 50+ MPG TDIs here, but 15 MPG Suburbans are perfectly fine. Because those are "clean". It's dumb. But, whatever. I'll just have to keep driving my 20+ year old cars instead. Good job, EPA, you've made sure a bunch of older cars stay on the road indefinitely. Well done. Idiots.

Also, inflated the price of old vehicles. I've been looking to replace my 96 f250 for the last few months, it's been a good truck but the engine is going to need a rebuild/ replaced here soon. Reman engines around $4k, the truck at best is worth $2500.00 bucks.
Looking at viable options has you in the $10-20k price range for a 20 year old truck thats just as rotten as what I have, and if diesel pray it's already been deleted, which adds another premium to the price tag.
Just stupid. Wasn't that long ago you picked up a 10-15 year old truck for a coupple grand and ran it for another 10 years without much fuss.

 

[oilhammer]

That's why I gave up looking for a Powerstroke OBS truck, any decent ones sell for about their new MSRP. Ended up driving to Texas to get a decent rust-free '97 and it has 8 spark plugs, and was less than half the price. Yeah, 10 MPG sucks, but luckily I rarely need to drive it, and it is reliable and still has its original lifetime transmission still working fine.

Not gonna lie, though, when I'm pulling a hill with a trailer into a headwind, I miss my old 7.3L diesel. That thing didn't care. Headwind, trailer, overloaded trailer, extra trailer full of fat chicks, didn't care. Did. Not. Care. And it could somehow use no more fuel than my 6 cyl half ton, LOL. But, it had a pedal deficiency and therefor I could not trust it any more than a 3-year-old in a candy store.

 

[d24tdi]

That's the thing, the DPFs don't get the soot loading (and thus as many regens) on SCR-equipped diesels. Because SCR is a NOx-reduction strategy that happens POST combustion. SCR lets the engine itself run leaner, which means more NOx.

The most recent revision of the medium duty Cummins B6.7 actually eliminated EGR a year or two ago for this exact reason. Seems like they have their SCR strategy worked out well enough at this point that they got to where in-cylinder control of NOx was no longer necessary. At least not with EGR; maybe they are still doing some efforts with VGT and timing to mitigate NOx in the combustion process but no dedicated EGR circuits. They could accomplish everything they needed to do to meet the standards just with the aftertreatment and existing engine components. That enables them to both greatly simplify the underhood plumbing and complexity, and also further increase fuel efficiency. I assume there might be some increase in DEF consumption as a result, would be curious to ask someone about that who is running one of these.

But either way, the idea of a diesel engine that is going back to NOT having an EGR system here in 2025 is fun to think about. Takes us right back to the 24 valve 5.9 and 7.3 PSD days.... So much less mess under the hood. Smart move by Cummins I would say, and gives owners a compelling reason to trade up to new equipment.

The SCR systems are not really anything to be afraid of IMHO. The main reason they scare people is because of the regulatory "driver inducement" strategies that can disable the vehicle if the DEF level gets low or there is a system fault. That's a bummer because there are enough parts to go wrong in the system, especially in cold weather, that those faults do happen.... Crystallization of the urea is also an issue that basically has no solution. But the system itself is fairly simple and the components "shouldn't" be expensive to produce, even though in many cases they are costly, due in part I imagine to the fact that many of them are still only available from the OEMs and any part needs to meet emission specs for performance. Keeping the system functional is imperative but if OEMs make serviceability and ease of troubleshooting a design priority, and make the parts available (seems to be the major issue in recent years) and affordable, there's no theoretical reason IMHO that they should be hard to maintain. Certainly not much more maintenance intensive or failure prone than an EGR valve, cooler, associated plumbing, throttle butterfly, and related sensors/actuators that we are happy enough living with even on a 20 year old PD TDI or 6.0L PSD Ford etc.

I imagine we'll see the aftermarket step up more and more with SCR parts in the future and costs will come down.

 

[dieseldonato]

That's why I gave up looking for a Powerstroke OBS truck, any decent ones sell for about their new MSRP. Ended up driving to Texas to get a decent rust-free '97 and it has 8 spark plugs, and was less than half the price. Yeah, 10 MPG sucks, but luckily I rarely need to drive it, and it is reliable and still has its original lifetime transmission still working fine.

Not gonna lie, though, when I'm pulling a hill with a trailer into a headwind, I miss my old 7.3L diesel. That thing didn't care. Headwind, trailer, overloaded trailer, extra trailer full of fat chicks, didn't care. Did. Not. Care. And it could somehow use no more fuel than my 6 cyl half ton, LOL. But, it had a pedal deficiency and therefor I could not trust it any more than a 3-year-old in a candy store.

As much as I like my big block, it doesn't do 18k lb trailers very well anymore, too many fat chick's too many times I guess. Moved on, ended up picking a 05 supercab long bed up for $2800 off some clueless 20 year old kid. Add read "it just shut off on my way home. Not putting another cent Into it. First $4500 takes it." Long story short, he had it less then a year, completely stock sans someone did the egr and cat delete. He thought owning a "big diesel truck" was cool, but was (is) too broke to afford it, and he has zero mechanical ability. Picked the truck apart real good in front of him. Offered $2k. His mom nearly fainted. He countered with $3200, said $2800 or I'm gone. Done deal. Needed an ipr. I have zero plans of making it make more power, so it will last a good long time. Nice thing I didn't realize when I looked over is it has a 10k gvwr.

 

[oilhammer]

Well that's the problem, isn't it? None of it SHOULD be an issue, but it certainly is. SCR is riddled with chronic problems. Heaters, pumps, tubes, injectors, above and beyond anything that could be avoided by idiocy induced problems (like leaving the caps off, putting something in the tank other than DEF, etc.)

And then the parts shortages we had. I had three customers with NMS Passats waiting for over half a year for SCR parts. One guy actually went out and bought a cheap used car because he had no other alternative, that's messed up. If a car's EGR valve, or purge valve, or oxygen sensor, or any one of a dozen other emissions control bits fails and turns the MIL on, you can often at least still DRIVE the car. But the SCR? Nah, let's brick the whole thing. That's what I have a problem with. I don't want a car's system holding its user hostage because "OMG NOx!"

Also, medium duty truck regs are far easier to meet than passenger cars. But kudos to Cummins (one of very few even left) that has worked out an EGRless system for this market in that segment. And yes, I'd think DEF usage would be higher... some of the off-road diesels that do not use EGR but have SCR have a MASSIVE appetite for DEF, so much so they had to redesign some of the bodywork to accommodate a bigger tank.

Oddly enough, our Bobcat T66 has EGR but no SCR, and I think it just has a DOC no DPF.... Tier 4 Final. It emits no smoke ever, and I've never detected any smell at all either. Tailpipe is pretty darn clean, too. We'll see how long it goes before something breaks. Doosan turbodiesel 4 cyl. But obviously its regs are very different, and it only has an operable RPM of a third of what a car does.

 

[d24tdi]

Personally here, give me the choice and I will go for the opposite of some of the opinions above ---- I would be happy enough to live with SCR, especially in a vehicle that I could keep a few common failure parts on the shelf for, but the DPF and DOC are what I want to avoid. I don't like the idea of a component in the exhaust that can a) mask an engine problem that I would otherwise detect and be able to act quickly on due to the presence of exhaust smoke as an early warning, like an oil or coolant consumption issue or turbo issue or injector issue; b) will become incredibly expensive collateral damage in the event of almost ANY engine problem that results in contamination or clogging of the DPF downstream; and c) can physically plug itself and disable or harm the motor, or fail in any number of other expensive ways (fractured substrate, etc). The oil dilution issues and heat-related turbo failures faced by engines that don't have dedicated fuel dosers and rely on in cylinder post injection are not good things either.

Bottom line though, no doubt all this stuff is here to stay. And agreed that the fundamental concept of imposing the NOx and PM emission standards that necessitate them on all diesel engines on the road, even though those local pollutants only are a problem for air quality in a very small number of urban areas around the country, makes no sense and comes at a huge cost to everyone anywhere else, in terms of fuel usage and upfront/ongoing equipment expense. Makes more sense to take the approach some other countries have of creating dedicated urban zones where short-range electric vehicles becomes the solution to air quality problems, and then allow a more relaxed standard elsewhere, particularly for NOx, which truly is an irrelevant pollutant anywhere except a dense urban area where it can find HC emissions and create low level ozone as a smog precursor. All the effort and cost to control NOx out in open country on the road is a waste.

 

[oilhammer]

Yep, NOx is a red herring.... especially so considering somehow VAG was able to sell all these "gross polluters" even in places like California yet no increased NOx levels were ever even a blip on a screen anywhere, city or otherwise. Which goes to show you how they're truly barking up the wrong tree.

 

[d24tdi]

Well that's the problem, isn't it? None of it SHOULD be an issue, but it certainly is. SCR is riddled with chronic problems. Heaters, pumps, tubes, injectors, above and beyond anything that could be avoided by idiocy induced problems (like leaving the caps off, putting something in the tank other than DEF, etc.)

And then the parts shortages we had. I had three customers with NMS Passats waiting for over half a year for SCR parts. One guy actually went out and bought a cheap used car because he had no other alternative, that's messed up. If a car's EGR valve, or purge valve, or oxygen sensor, or any one of a dozen other emissions control bits fails and turns the MIL on, you can often at least still DRIVE the car. But the SCR? Nah, let's brick the whole thing. That's what I have a problem with. I don't want a car's system holding its user hostage because "OMG NOx!"

Yeah absolutely agreed there. The problems exist even though they shouldn't. But the fact that those problems SHOULD be avoidable/solvable (especially the parts availability issues which are ridiculous and have no excuse -- VW is not the only one with that, heavy trucks have had serious problems with it too) makes me think that we eventually will reach a point where the market creates reasonable solutions. Or at least it could. The demand would certainly be there for it. Not sure what holds back the aftermarket from kicking out parts to fill the void. Maybe it's just the fear factor of being involved with the emission control system that has been the focus of so much enforcement and scandal for various OEMs.

DEF tank heaters and doser pumps and tubes and whatnot are really not a whole lot more complex than the windshield washer system in most vehicles, LOL. Plastic tanks, resistance heaters, and plastic tubing and such. It shouldn't be such a challenge.

In fairness, I have most definitely seen an O2 sensor (in a gas car) render the vehicle totally undriveable.... And we have all seen EGR cooler failures lead to total internal engine destruction. EGR exhaust-side tubing failures can be pretty debilitating too. So can't quite agree with the idea that all of those systems can fail but have no functional effects.

 

[dieseldonato]

Tier 4 final off road, basically made them in line with on road diesel emissions. There are several hp ranges that attest to how much nox/pm limits are. basically you won't see scr on anything 75hp or smaller, larger engines have it, some use dpf/doc/scr combinations some don't use dpf at all. I think moat have added an ammonia slip catalyst to the back end of the doc to help with the stink.
Still doesn't help the parts end of things though. Lots of proprietary parts, lots of stuff that needs programmed to the ecu/ serial numbers saved etc. I'm glad I don't pound the road dealing with that crap anymore. Half the operators I delt with acted like I was the guy that decided to put that crap in their machine, nope. Ran just fine before it was all added.
Heck I spent more time messing with aftertreatment systems then with base engine system there towards the end. Such a pain.

 

[oilhammer]

It's funny, before we decided on the Bobcat, we were looking at some other brands. The Kubota was probably the nicest, honestly, but it was also one of the most expensive. But the Deere we looked at, hah, the salesman was telling us about the emissions stuff and that John Deere (who was sued, BTW) really tries hard to stop any tampering. But, the guy at the New Holland dealer flat told us "yeah, once it is out of warranty, and it breaks, we can just remove that stuff". So, they literally already KNOW it is a problem, and they know how to "fix" it. Which, again, is why the regs become so silly.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I don't own a truck, but I know a lot of people who do, and even more who would like to, but don't. Universally, they wish trucks were smaller, less expensive, and could be bought with a simple diesel that would be far more trouble free than modern diesels. I think people like to talk up the high power figures on new diesels because it helps them justify the $80-100K they paid for the damn thing.

My son would kill for a Toyota Hilux diesel, preferably a 20 year old one. Or even a clean Tacoma of the same vintage. But they're priced in the stratosphere. Why? Because there's nothing else like them available new. Same for 7.3L Powerstrokes.

And as an aside, people buy CR-Vs and RAV-4s not becuase they necessarily like them but because (a) they've been told they have to sit high and have AWD, and (b) there's nothing else available. My daughter and her husband just bought a RAV-4 Hybrid. They would have perferred a station wagon of the same side, but forget about that.

 

[oilhammer]

Supposedly the regulations we have legislated ourselves into mean no compact trucks anymore for us. Which does suck. However, in the case of conventional pickups (two piece bodies, bed+cab, ladder frames, live rear axle, etc.) the amount of parts involved and the steps taken to build them means that they don't scale down much in initial price based on size. It's a lot like tools. A 1/4" drive 10mm swivel socket is easily less than half the girth of a 3/8" drive 10mm swivel socket, yet they cost almost as much. Why? Because it took just as much time and effort and processes to make it. The cost of the raw metal is the cheap part.

When I bought my 1993 F150 new, it was $12,600. 2WD, regular cab, long (8ft) bed. Base engine (6cyl), base transmission (5sp). A Ranger, configured the same way, was $9900. That was a 4 cyl, with less than half the displacement, the same basic 5sp manual, a bed a foot shorter, no second fuel tank (the F150s came standard with them), the Ranger's long (7ft) bed was extra (F150 longbed was the same price as the short bed on regular cab trucks, because Ford simply built SO MANY that way). Both trucks had the same $1000 A/C option, but everything on the F150 was substantially bigger. So, for less than $3k more, I got a LOT more truck. Fuel economy was worse, but not substantially so, and the F150 could pull most anything I'd ever want or need to pull, the Ranger couldn't.

I really think other parts of the world, where compact trucks are common and still available, are just so because full sized trucks are not sold there or the sheer size of them is impractical for older tight city streets. They also of course have many choices of smaller, more commercially minded choices like Transporter-based trucks. Rest assured, I'd happily give up my OBS Fords for one of these:

But, thanks to the Chicken Tax, VAG being pussies, and our dumbass regulations, I can't.

I'd be curious what 2025 Transporters and their truck versions cost, though.

 

[sloinker]

Nox...what a PITA. I know at my coal fired power plant, Nox is regulated strictly. So you need to take temperature out of the boilers to stay within limit. This in turn causes the CO to rise and the efficiency goes out the window. Not going to even go into the Mercury, SO, opacity, CO2 etc...

 

[jmodge]

1st gen Tacoma ALH

It's why I jumped on this the moment Dana mentioned he was contemplating selling it. It's a lightweight capable and efficient truck. It's a basic tin can, but it suits my needs. He did a good enough job that I can pretty much just drive it. I've abused it a couple times, it will go through some $hit, it's an impressive platform. To do that on a regular basis it would require some changes, and I don't find fixing things after breaking them as fun as I used to. But it's a good daily utility truck, which was his goal and what I use it for.
I intended on buying a new vehicle when I retired, but.....If there was something new similar to this, I'd pony up for it, no doubt. But it would have to be simple, I'm just not going to spend extra tens of thousands of dollars on a load of crap options and tech that I don't want. I'm just not wired that way, I would rather say no and go without. I don't even use the radios in my vehicles, my idea of stereo is an open dual exhaust anyway.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

Cummins making the 6.7 liter B series EGR free may have been at the behest of VW Group AKA Traton owned Scania. They offer the B series to supplement their line of 9 to 16 liter diesels which are also EGR free. Scania also has an interesting hybrid using the Cummins B series or their own 9 liter diesel that's rated for up to 36 metric tons GCW, which neatly translates to our 80,000 pound Interstate weight limit.