EPA Hits Two More Diesel Tuners With $10 Million Fine For Defeat Devices

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JELLOWSUBMARINE

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After < 80k miles the fuel + manufacturing energy consumed are lower for an EV vs ICE.

If China and India want to keep using oil for energy that’s fine. But better they buy from the US than Ruzzia. Best way for us to export more oil is to burn less. What’s a better way to do that?
I won't enter a pissing match, think what you will.

Other thing that stands out to me is what drives people to electric and at the same time could careless what the rest of the world produces in emissions.

Kind of curious though how a Texan is so anti fossil fuel? nwdiver a clue? Not beating on your conviction just don't understand the logic. Probably me
 

nwdiver

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I won't enter a pissing match, think what you will.

Other thing that stands out to me is what drives people to electric and at the same time could careless what the rest of the world produces in emissions.

Kind of curious though how a Texan is so anti fossil fuel? nwdiver a clue? Not beating on your conviction just don't understand the logic. Probably me
I'm not anti-oil. I'm against the BURNING of oil. By all means... drill baby drill and sell it. But it's idiotic to keep burning something so valuable for energy when there are FAR more affordable alternatives. If China wants to pay us $80 for a bbl of oil then burn it... their loss and our gain.

Years ago Norway embarked on a top secret research project. After much research they made a startling discovery. Turns out.... Turns out they can make more money by selling oil than by burning it. Seems like they might be on to something :)

I take it that since I've asked twice now what a better path to reduced dependency is with no answer that you're not aware of a better solution? Not judging... a better solution than electrification probably doesn't exist.
 
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JELLOWSUBMARINE

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I take it that since I've asked twice now what a better path to reduced dependency is with no answer that you're not aware of a better solution? Not judging... a better solution than electrification probably doesn't exist.
No taken wrong. My position is clearly stated through out this thread Since this thread originally was about fining shops getting past the overzelious and counter productive diesel regulations. Ill honor that
 

Jr mason

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I'm not anti-oil. I'm against the BURNING of oil.
And yet here you are, on an oil burners enthusiast site. Odd.
That would be the equivalent of me perusing an EV forum. No desire.

I take it that since I've asked twice now what a better path to reduced dependency is with no answer that you're not aware of a better solution? Not judging... a better solution than electrification probably doesn't exist.
Its already been developed. Hybridization. Far better, more reliable option than ANYTHING that relies on a battery as a sole means of energy.

It just is.
 

nwdiver

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Its already been developed. Hybridization. Far better, more reliable option than ANYTHING that relies on a battery as a sole means of energy.

It just is.
How does increasing the number of moving parts >20x make something MORE reliable? The only benefit to a PHEV is the ability to avoid waiting to charge on trips. Which as has been discussed is really no longer a problem.

Did you buy a TDI because you wanted an efficient car or because you wanted to burn oil?


No taken wrong. My position is clearly stated through out this thread Since this thread originally was about fining shops getting past the overzelious and counter productive diesel regulations. Ill honor that
Ok. To stay more on topic, since there seems to be broad agreement that new cars are resource intensive to build and EPA regulations are heavy handed would an acceptable compromise be a ban on new ICE in exchange for relaxed EPA regs on existing vehicles? Seems like a win-win. New cars are terrible and keep the older ones on the road longer.
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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And i thought I used sarcasm well :giggle:
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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Naw, piece of cake.
 

Abacus

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How does adding storage to a grid that increasingly needs more storage not have a lasting benefit? We need to use less fossil fuels, quickly. What's a better solution?

If you're not taking ~45 minutes worth of breaks on an 8 hour trip you probably should be...
Exactly HOW are you storing the electricity? What is the medium, batteries?

We don’t need to use less fossil fuels quickly, that is a fallacy. There are those that would LIKE us to use stop using fossil fuels, but those same people find no reason not to use it to their excess, as we have seen time and again.

Sorry, but you can toss out all the figures you want, you will not convince those of us who have yet to drink the kool-aid that the current state of EV’s are superior to ICE vehicles or that renewable energy can hold a candle (pun intended) to fossil fuels for our demands. And yes, I have solar on my house, which was FAR more expensive than you paid all those years ago. Times change and prices go up with them, especially when there is money to be made.
 

nwdiver

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Exactly HOW are you storing the electricity? What is the medium, batteries?

We don’t need to use less fossil fuels quickly, that is a fallacy. There are those that would LIKE us to use stop using fossil fuels, but those same people find no reason not to use it to their excess, as we have seen time and again.

Sorry, but you can toss out all the figures you want, you will not convince those of us who have yet to drink the kool-aid that the current state of EV’s are superior to ICE vehicles or that renewable energy can hold a candle (pun intended) to fossil fuels for our demands. And yes, I have solar on my house, which was FAR more expensive than you paid all those years ago. Times change and prices go up with them, especially when there is money to be made.
EVs ARE the storage. Was that not clear?

Have you not checked the news in the past ~30 years. SUPER clear we need to reduce our dependency on burning oil for energy ASAP.

.... you realize that following the facts is literally the complete opposite of 'drinking the kool-aid'... right? ... or.... was that meant as satire?
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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That's funny. I have a "don't drink the koolaid" decal on my JSW. 8I'll
post it tomorrow if possible. I guess some wonder if its satire?

Here's SATIRE! Grab a pronoun and cold beer
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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college age, check
indoctrinated, check
pronoun, check


on a lighter note


yet theres hope


 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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AAAAH now I can't sleep
 

Abacus

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EVs ARE the storage. Was that not clear?

Have you not checked the news in the past ~30 years. SUPER clear we need to reduce our dependency on burning oil for energy ASAP.

.... you realize that following the facts is literally the complete opposite of 'drinking the kool-aid'... right? ... or.... was that meant as satire?
EV‘s are not storage, they are the end user product. Storage implies future use for another medium, but the electricity ‘stored’ in a EV is the same as saying you’re storing diesel in your fuel tank. It’s merely a repository for the engine that will use that fuel. Who in their right mind would ever use an EV as a storage device? Sure, it can power items for short term use, but not for transmission back to the grid, the efficiency losses are much too high for that to even be considered with a straight face. I can run my TDI to power a converter to supply electricity to appliances in my house, but only in an emergency would I do that. Fuel is ‘stored’ in their user state, so diesel or RUG is stored in a vessel because their medium is a physical liquid. Currently the available medium for electricity, of which their state is electrons, is marginal at best, which is why you don’t see large battery banks powering cities and towns during the off-peak times when renewable resources can charge them again. Until such an item exists, fossil fuel generation is needed to fill that gap. When that day arrives we have a viable medium to store and use electricity to meet demand, I’ll be on-board.

But the current state of EV’s does not meet our demands yet, and my wife wants an EV very much. But, she is unwilling to spend $70k+ (even with subsidies) for one that will meet her mileage requirements, and then we‘d have to upgrade our electrical just to charge it every night. So even she, who is wanting an EV, understands the drawbacks outweigh the benefits in their current state. Sure, they have a niche and a use, but currently they do not fit all categories and those spending the large sums on such vehicles are willing to put up with their nuances, just like TDI owners. We often go for long drives here in Arizona, and just for back from one over the holiday weekend where we wanted to see more of this be cautious state. That’s not happening in an EV due to having to few charging stations and getting stuck in the middle of nowhere, often with no cell reception, is not something we’d care to experience.

Sure, I keep up on the news, but I tend to disregard the fringe alarmist garbage on both sides. It may be SUPER clear to you that we ‘need’ to switch to EV’s, but as I stated before, Kool-Aid is not my preferred beverage. I am willing to switch to another transportation medium when it becomes viable, but at their current state I do not feel EV’s are there yet. And since I am not in the alarmist camp, I will continue to happily drive my ICE vehicles until the wheels fall off, turn my heat up when I’m cold, and not worry about the next ‘ice age’, ‘global warming’, ‘climate disruption’, or the new (and I can‘t believe this is something people are actually pushing) ‘climate anxiety’. Yes, that is a term I’ve heard repeated on the news, my thought is that it’s because none of the other terms were scary enough to get people to act contrary to their current belief system. Make no mistake, I’m not in the gross polluter category as we recycle, don’t buy Chinese products or those from grossly polluting countries (if we can help it), “reduce, reuse, recycle”, and have household solar to offset our electric costs and supply excess back to the grid during peak AC times. But everything has a limit and those ideas that are so good they need to be forced upon others because they can’t stand on their own, or they need people like yourself proselytizing about them from their high horse are ones I tend to step back from due to too much noise. Once they’re analyzed and questioned the truth tends to come out in short order. No one needed to convince me to buy or drive a TDI, I saw the benefits and did so on my own. And I’m sure the time will come when the same will happen with an EV or other alternative fuel vehicle, but not in the near future.

You have presented no ‘facts’, just propaganda you wish to portray as ‘facts’. You cherry pick highlights and ignore the detriments to your position, and as such they do not pass muster. I have you on Ignore most of the time due to your rabid position on EV, and on a TDI board no less, but these last few posts made me wonder what it was that you posted and I just had to chime in after reading them.
 

1854sailor

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Once again, nwdiver has hijacked a thread and made it all about EVs. Please just go away and start your own EV website for those of your ilk who are interested. One more EV post here and this thread is kaput...
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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I knew Greta would thread crap here sooner or later.

Oh well... I did use my chainsaw quite a bit this weekend, I feel like I offset some of the smug anyway. I hope I did my part.
This Texan from Portlandia is just too much fun. I just had to Greta crap. Its maybe the only thing that'll stick. Nothing like the smell of 2 stroke in the morning! Well maybe a few toasted electrons
When the facts are against you... what else can you do? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Me thinks not oh wise one. $%/÷=//$=% look mom no sense
This thread is jusr too much fun!
 

1854sailor

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This Texan from Portlandia is just too much fun. I just had to Greta crap. Its maybe the only thing that'll stick. Nothing like the smell of 2 stroke in the morning! Well maybe a few toasted electrons

Me thinks not oh wise one. $%/÷=//$=% look mom no sense
This thread is jusr too much fun!
Please don't encourage him or I'm going to lock this up...
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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nwdiver

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Once again, nwdiver has hijacked a thread and made it all about EVs. Please just go away and start your own EV website for those of your ilk who are interested. One more EV post here and this thread is kaput...
I'm not the one that diverted the thread...

Two things:

1) the same can be said for EV's, they're in the development stage. This current medium of Li-Poly is OK, but it's not the end-all or final word in EV's, it's just the best so far. Until the batteries can be hot-swapped the technology just isn't ready for prime-time.
'Apologies' if I broke your echo chamber with a bit of reality. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

turbodieseldyke

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And yet here you are, on an oil burners enthusiast site. Odd.
That would be the equivalent of me perusing an EV forum. No desire.
More than that, it would be equivalent to you going to their forum, and proseltyzing and evangelizing the EV owners how burning oil is the Way the Truth and the Life, and so much more efficient, and much more ethical than using "Blood Batteries" whose elements were mined by third world children.

EV‘s are not storage, they are the end user product. Storage implies future use for another medium, but the electricity ‘stored’ in a EV is the same as saying you’re storing diesel in your fuel tank.
Imagine thinking that people would actually plug their EV into the grid to donate/sell back the juice they've stored, in order to power some stranger's AC or fridge 100 miles away. If something becomes so scarce that they need everyone to "chip in for the cause", that's when people hoard what little they've got. Just because it may be possible for a fleet of F150s to feed the grid, doesn't mean it would happen. It absolutely would never happen.
 

turbobrick240

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Imagine thinking that people would actually plug their EV into the grid to donate/sell back the juice they've stored, in order to power some stranger's AC or fridge 100 miles away. If something becomes so scarce that they need everyone to "chip in for the cause", that's when people hoard what little they've got. Just because it may be possible for a fleet of F150s to feed the grid, doesn't mean it would happen. It absolutely would never happen.
If the car owner is paying $.10/KWh to charge during off peak hours, and getting paid $.25/KWh to feed back up to 10-15% of their battery capacity during peak hours as a grid stabilization service, then yeah, I bet plenty of people would be interested. This is already being done with home stationary battery storage in California, though I'm not sure what the rates are.
 

turbodieseldyke

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If the car owner is paying $.10/KWh to charge during off peak hours, and getting paid $.25/KWh to feed back up to 10-15% of their battery capacity during peak hours as a grid stabilization service, then yeah, I bet plenty of people would be interested. This is already being done with home stationary battery storage in California, though I'm not sure what the rates are.
Cars are different. You fill your tank because you will need to drive it, not to play some game like you're shorting stocks on the market. I'm sure some people would do it, and laugh all the way to the piggybank, but not enough to make a dent in grid stability. If the green loons end up creating their perfect Logans Run society with 100% control over everyone, then they'll probably require give-backs to the grid, and cars will be disabled if they don't sufficiently contribute. It'll be the new breathalyzer ignition switch.
 
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