EPA flexing their muscles

kjclow

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With the announcement earlier this week that the EPA was going to stop CARB from passing tighter regulations, it also looks like the EPA is going to go after the tuners.
https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/se...ohibits-performance-diesel-inc-selling-diesel

From the Ram1500diesel.com forum, it looks like Green Diesel is not offering any tunes this week. I wonder if the other tuners are also placing a hold on sales.
 

Mythdoc

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With the announcement earlier this week that the EPA was going to stop CARB from passing tighter regulations, it also looks like the EPA is going to go after the tuners.
https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/se...ohibits-performance-diesel-inc-selling-diesel

From the Ram1500diesel.com forum, it looks like Green Diesel is not offering any tunes this week. I wonder if the other tuners are also placing a hold on sales.


This current EPA is so hostile to the concept of emissions control that one can only conclude that a competitor to the tune makers has paid a bigger bribe to the administration than PDI was willing to. Do a quick google search for Fitzgerald diesel EPA if you want to understand what I am talking about.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Isn't the EPA limiting what Fitzgerald can do, and prohibiting it altogether after 2021?
 

Mythdoc

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Isn't the EPA limiting what Fitzgerald can do, and prohibiting it altogether after 2021?

We’ll see. It was the former crony head of EPA, Pruitt, who masterminded their sweet little carve out. And there are only so many zombie gliders that can be brought back from the dead. Make the cash while you can, right? But the point is that this announcement above is unlike business as usual in the current EPA.
 

wensteph

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PPEI has stopped selling Duramax tuners. A company called Performance Diesel Inc was fined $1.1M for deleting OTR trucks. EPA hates diesel right now. Target of opportunity and they will stick with it until something else pops up.
 

Kevinski4

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This current EPA is so hostile to the concept of emissions control that one can only conclude that a competitor to the tune makers has paid a bigger bribe to the administration than PDI was willing to. Do a quick google search for Fitzgerald diesel EPA if you want to understand what I am talking about.



Just to help me understand what you mean, when you say "This current EPA is so hostile to the concept of emissions control", are you referring to the regulatory agency who fined Volkswagen FOURTEEN BILLION dollars for emissions control violations? The same agency who is currently systematically putting tuners out of business and has the entire automotive aftermarket in it's sights?


Also it seems you have never been involved in the heavy duty diesel engine industry where the emissions certifications are tied to the engine, and not the truck. Same with a boat.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I think Mythdoc is referring to the EPA's current trend towards rolling back pollution regulations. Times change quickly.
 

Mythdoc

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I think Mythdoc is referring to the EPA's current trend towards rolling back pollution regulations. Times change quickly.

Exactly.

As to the Fitzgerald fiasco, Pruitt and the EPA we’re allowing the exact opposite of what you state, Kevinski. They were allowing Fitzgerald to market diesel semis with completely rebuilt engines, replaced “down to their cores,” not refurbs. The main thing about these trucks that dated back to the older emissions regulations was the piece of paper received when they were first put into service.
 
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Kevinski4

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So this information from the EPA's website must be a good example of the EPA rolling back pollution regulations then?
https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/national-compliance-initiatives


You and I are saying the same thing. Except the truck doesn't get the piece of paper, the engine does. It stays with the engine, even if the engine gets worn out and rebuilt. Rebuilt, refurbished, it's the same thing, even if it's "down to the core". I don't think that phrase means what you think it does. They are NOT building entirely new engines masquerading as refurb, as you seem to insinuate. That is entirely illegal. Always has been. Most of the engines going into gliders are refurbished at the engine OEM (Cat, Detroit, Cummins). These type of engines are designed for easy refurb. When you put 120k on every year, it's pretty common to have the engine rebuilt more than once during the life of the chassis its in. Many times it's done with the engine block still in the chassis.
 

Mythdoc

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I’ll try to clarify my position one more time, then I guess we can always “agree to disagree.” The Fitzgerald fiasco did not involve keeping engines on the road, it was pulling over 10,000 “engines” out of salvage yards, per year, “rebuilding” them from the core on out and putting them back on the road. To me this is a very sketchy scenario and was worthy of regulation by the Obama EPA. Under Pruitt and Trump, the regulatory limit of 300 such vehicles per year was canceled and Fitzgerald was given a competitive advantage in the market, and junk science was used saying the rebuilt engines did not pollute more.

As to the clampdown on defeat devices, color me skeptical of everything this administration supposedly does in the name of cleaner air, but I am going to stick with my original comment. I believe it is likely that some other business interest has pushed for this clampdown in trade for acquiescence on some other issue. Maybe it’s the rollback on mpg’s, the war on CARB, or some other pet project of the current administration.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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We've heard about some (remaining nameless) tuners receiving visits from the EPA to look at how they're tuning and making mechanical changes to cars and light trucks. Not sure what will come of it, but it must be anxious times for those folks.
 

oilhammer

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I’ll try to clarify my position one more time, then I guess we can always “agree to disagree.” The Fitzgerald fiasco did not involve keeping engines on the road, it was pulling over 10,000 “engines” out of salvage yards, per year, “rebuilding” them from the core on out and putting them back on the road. To me this is a very sketchy scenario and was worthy of regulation by the Obama EPA. Under Pruitt and Trump, the regulatory limit of 300 such vehicles per year was canceled and Fitzgerald was given a competitive advantage in the market, and junk science was used saying the rebuilt engines did not pollute more.

As to the clampdown on defeat devices, color me skeptical of everything this administration supposedly does in the name of cleaner air, but I am going to stick with my original comment. I believe it is likely that some other business interest has pushed for this clampdown in trade for acquiescence on some other issue. Maybe it’s the rollback on mpg’s, the war on CARB, or some other pet project of the current administration.
I think it stands to reason that an examination of why someone would do this in relation to the alternative may shed some light on the simple fact that so much of the newer technology has become too expensive, too fragile, and too unreliable. The Ag industry is sort of doing the same thing. The John Deere dealer in my local home town sold their franchise a couple years ago, because new product sales were dropping and they decided to take up restoration of older, but not "classic", machinery. Simply because there were SO MANY customers who were dissatisfied with newer products and wanted their older stuff back. Or at least, they wanted to be able to know that when harvest time comes, their combine would reliably work from before sun up to after sun down, for a solid week pretty much non-stop, without the specter of some warning light limp mode reduced power nonsense happening.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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This is, in a nutshell, why we're selling MKIV ALH parts at the same rate as we were 10 years ago. We keep wondering when it's going to slow down, but the number of people placing huge orders to completely refresh an ALH is pretty impressive.

Fact is, a lot of our customers (and me, for that matter) will happily sacrifice features and refinement for a diesel that's dead reliable, and easy and inexpensive to maintain.
 

Mythdoc

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All good points, Oilhammer and IBW. It’s an interesting discussion.
 

turbocharged798

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This is, in a nutshell, why we're selling MKIV ALH parts at the same rate as we were 10 years ago. We keep wondering when it's going to slow down, but the number of people placing huge orders to completely refresh an ALH is pretty impressive.

Fact is, a lot of our customers (and me, for that matter) will happily sacrifice features and refinement for a diesel that's dead reliable, and easy and inexpensive to maintain.
I am on my 3rd ALH refresh now. Picked up a cheap rust free gasser shell cheap. Picked up a core ALH engine also cheap. Plan on completely overhauling the engine and putting it in the gasser shell. Should be good for another 15-20 years I estimate.

Between the fuel economy, longevity, and simplicity, the ALH engines cars are hard to beat. No surprise people are working hard to keep these cars on the road. Will the same be happening to CR cars 15 years from now? Doubt it. They will likely be a rolling dumpster fire full of emission control problems that will be hitting the junkards in mass. Emission controls basically ruined the diesel car market. But hey, you can buy Suburbans and F150 Raptors all day long and the EPA is A OK with that. :rolleyes:
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I think even the EPA is wise to the "off road" claim. Visit related to me the tuner tried that but was found out by the EPA finding tunes on two vehicles with license plates.
 

jackbombay

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I think even the EPA is wise to the "off road" claim.
I should have used a emoticon, I 've always chuckled at the "off road use only" line, I mean, how many Jettas and Golfs are theoretically being driven off road?!?

Visit related to me the tuner tried that but was found out by the EPA finding tunes on two vehicles with license plates.
D'oh!

It's been the better part of 2 decades that cars have been computer controlled enough for ecu tuning to be possible, it's kind of surprising that it has taken this long for a crack down to happen.
 

Mythdoc

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Which businesses, and which interests, stand to gain from the crackdown on tunes and tuners? I don’t know enough about how the big trucks are sold and maintained to see the obvious winners, although I can make some guesses. (One winner would be the glider manufacturers — no surprise.)

Are they moving to curtail automobile tunes as well or mainly trucks? Gassers or mainly diesels? It’ll be interesting to see where the enforcement resources are allocated.
 

gearheadgrrrl

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I'm surprised folks are hanging on to ALHs, what with VW dumping CRs so cheap. I love my ALH Golf, but with an iffy left foot and increasing rust, I'm tempted to take up VW on their offer of a CR with DSG or even another 2015 for parts interchangeability.

I am on my 3rd ALH refresh now. Picked up a cheap rust free gasser shell cheap. Picked up a core ALH engine also cheap. Plan on completely overhauling the engine and putting it in the gasser shell. Should be good for another 15-20 years I estimate.

Between the fuel economy, longevity, and simplicity, the ALH engines cars are hard to beat. No surprise people are working hard to keep these cars on the road. Will the same be happening to CR cars 15 years from now? Doubt it. They will likely be a rolling dumpster fire full of emission control problems that will be hitting the junkards in mass. Emission controls basically ruined the diesel car market. But hey, you can buy Suburbans and F150 Raptors all day long and the EPA is A OK with that. :rolleyes:
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I own two ALHs and one CR TDI. The ALHs have 260K and 395K miles on them. If I had to sell one car it would be the CR, and it has 13K miles on it. I simply prefer the MKIV platform and the ALH engine. They're all manuals, so my left foot has to keep working regardless.
 

tikal

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I am on my 3rd ALH refresh now. Picked up a cheap rust free gasser shell cheap. Picked up a core ALH engine also cheap. Plan on completely overhauling the engine and putting it in the gasser shell. Should be good for another 15-20 years I estimate.

Between the fuel economy, longevity, and simplicity, the ALH engines cars are hard to beat. No surprise people are working hard to keep these cars on the road. Will the same be happening to CR cars 15 years from now? Doubt it. They will likely be a rolling dumpster fire full of emission control problems that will be hitting the junkards in mass. Emission controls basically ruined the diesel car market. But hey, you can buy Suburbans and F150 Raptors all day long and the EPA is A OK with that. :rolleyes:
Good points. VW broke the law in the US and got caught 'red handed', fined and so forth. Fair enough.

But we will be fools to believe that a modern compliant gasoline vehicle sold in the US is cleaner overall (air pollution + CO2 emissions) than even not-fixed common rail (CR) TDI.
 

GoFaster

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Good points. VW broke the law in the US and got caught 'red handed', fined and so forth. Fair enough.

But we will be fools to believe that a modern compliant gasoline vehicle sold in the US is cleaner overall (air pollution + CO2 emissions) than even not-fixed common rail (CR) TDI.
How about VW's own 1.4 TSI gasoline engine?

In another thread on this forum, folks are reporting real world fuel consumption from the Jetta 1.4 TSI that is close to that of a TDI. Close enough that the inherent 10% CO2 disadvantage of diesel fuel means that the CO2 emissions are probably in favour of the gasoline engine.

And here's the emission control label.



The TDI engine was never officially certified to T3B30, not even after having been "fixed", and certainly the unfixed models were not even remotely close to that ...
 

Matt-98AHU

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I think Mythdoc is referring to the EPA's current trend towards rolling back pollution regulations. Times change quickly.
That's a misnomer... a misunderstanding of what regulations the EPA is actually attempting to roll back, or at least freeze at 2020 levels, and also not allow CARB to make their own rules. It's pretty rampant across most news outlets this misunderstanding.

From all I can tell, what the EPA is proposing to freeze as well as disallow CARB from making their own stricter requirements on is corporate average fuel economy (CAFE), not pollution regulations.

Corporate average fuel economy is a somewhat indirect way of reducing CO2 output in a manner of speaking, but it has zero to do with actual pollutants that create air quality issues (which would be hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, non-methane organic gases, NOx and particulates, which combined usually make up less than 1% of what comes out of a vehicle's tailpipe, whereas CO2 makes up a majority).

The EPA is on a tear where it comes to air quality, but since the average American consumer still prefers larger vehicles that get poor fuel economy, Trump's influence in the EPA via Pruitt has been to slow down the steep incline in regulations for average fuel economy. As far as I know, regulations for actual pollution remain on track as they were already set.
 

tikal

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How about VW's own 1.4 TSI gasoline engine?

In another thread on this forum, folks are reporting real world fuel consumption from the Jetta 1.4 TSI that is close to that of a TDI. Close enough that the inherent 10% CO2 disadvantage of diesel fuel means that the CO2 emissions are probably in favour of the gasoline engine.

And here's the emission control label.



The TDI engine was never officially certified to T3B30, not even after having been "fixed", and certainly the unfixed models were not even remotely close to that ...

Good points. Is there a wagon version available and if so how would it behave environmentally speaking fully loaded at 75 MPH on the freeway or through mountainous driving?
 

tikal

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I should add that a few months ago on a business trip, I had a current-generation Toyota Camry with their new "Dynamic Force" gasoline engine, non-hybrid (8-speed automatic), and I got 47 mpg US on a mostly-highway trip. That's certainly VW TDI territory.

Tier 3 bin 30: https://res.cloudinary.com/dqwfqpxd...mage/show/1200x_/5bcfa494f71090000aa5f16b.jpg
Excellent. Unfortunately no wagon available of this engine North America (my assumption without even looking it up online).

Also, is the 47 mpg is with four passengers and the trunk full of stuff going hwy speed?
 
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