Torn Intermediate Shaft Seal after Timing Belt Job

[Benjamis]

Car fresh off timing belt job and test drives. I took it to a job the next day, drove 26 miles, all was well. Finished the job, drove to the next job 4 miles down the road. Started working, went to my car to grab a few things, noticed some oil on the road. A trail of oil. No trail of oil in front of my car. A huge puddle under the car. Definitely no oil when I backed out of a spotless cement driveway 4 miles ago. Zero oil on the dipstick.
No oil light or buzzer, no indication of anything wrong whatsoever while driving and pulling up to the parking spot on the street. All belts and pulleys are slathered in oil. The passenger control arm and wheel are slathered in oil. The tow truck didn't show up after waiting 2 hours and wouldn't respond to calls. The second one cancelled. The third would be more than a 2 hour wait. Long miserable day working and feeling ill. Didn't have energy to move or care. Caught a ride home. Had a sick day the next day.
Surely you guys know what this is, before I get it towed home and tear into it again, being the lucky guy I am to still have a salvageable engine after essentially 3 tows in the last 800 miles, not to mention springing leaks in IP seals. I guess I was lucky, back in the day, being able to drive 1000 miles before another fix. I keep thinking there is light at the end of the tunnel.

EDIT: I came to find out that the spotless cement driveway was not so spotless after all. It had a huge puddle of oil and two trails, one for when I pulled up, and one when I reversed out. I suppose with the road construction there I was fixated on the mirrors while backing out and didn't even see the oil until the next stop. However, my driveway at home has no oil on it or where I park. There was no leak after a 10 mile test drive after installing the timing belt, or sitting there with the engine running for minutes running VCDS. So it sprung a leak at some point on the 26 mile drive to a job.

 

[ToddA1]

Welcome to old cars. No oil on the dipstick doesn’t necessarily mean no oil in the pan. You could be 2 or 3 quarts low.

Could be a seal… look for the obvious. I had a similar issue that would occur intermittently. It turned out to be the high pressure sender, on top of the oil filter flange.

-Todd

 

[garciapiano]

Oil filter flange is notorious for this sort of leak.

 

[ToddA1]

Oil is on the front of the engine. That’s why I mentioned seals.

btw, you sure your Jetta is a 1Z? I thought they were all AHU.

-Todd

 

[MukGyver]

so close to the TB change would it have something to do with that work?

 

[garciapiano]

If you changed any of the seals in conjunction with the timing belt, I would suspect cam seal.

 

[Benjamis]

Yea but could a cam seal up top drain 3 quarts of oil within 4 miles? I did change the intermediate shaft o-ring and shaft seal, but not the cam seal. The cam seal looked good and dry and I did not pull the cam during timing belt job. The oil is coming from the back side and I figured the only thing in that region that could drain oil that quick would be turbo related. I think if it were a shaft seal, I would have gotten an oil pressure buzzer, but maybe I'm wrong. The bulk of the oil went on the control arm, but I think some was able to leak into the timing belt cover and then slather and spray all belts and sprockets.
Monsoon today with more to come will further delay the tow til Monday now if not later. To think of that poor brand new beautiful Gates timing belt, just soaking up oil. Tough times.

 

[ToddA1]

Pull the covers, top off the oil and start it. If you’re loosing that much oil, I’d think the leak would be easy to see. Obviously, look at the IM shaft, since you touched it.

I’ve seen many oil soaked belts that have been fine. If it were me, (your car, your call), but I’d spray it down with degreaser, rinse off and call it a day.… I live dangerously…

FWIW, anytime I do a timing belt, the cam seal gets replaced. It’s right there, you have the cam sprocket and vc off and it’s 2 13mm nuts.

-Todd

 

[MukGyver]

OP, I tend to agree with you, it's unlikely, but strange things happen.... how about plugged crankcase ventilation blowing out a section of crusty valve cover gasket on the backside?.... or more unlikely because the leak you said is higher, something gouged your pan during the 4 mile drive and oil whipped up the back side... or how about a turbo oil line leak?... wipe it all down, put some oil in, start it and see!

 

[Mongler98]

unless a seal just straight up popped back out. (extremely unlikely) but i have seen it on my father's subaru and it never leaked that fast..... you have either a broken or leaking oil filter and or assembly or a cracked something or broken hose. i have had my fair share of oil leaks and nothing drains it that fast other than something that is under pressure. think oil feed line or filter housing.... or seal. did you double gasket your oil filter? no oil seal i have ever seen would leak that fast and i have seen them completely fubared when installed and nothing ever leaked out that fast.
99% chance that this is something that is under pressure and THUS YOU MUST NOT DRIVE OR START IT. if you have low oil pressure, you WILL destroy your engine. Put a proper oil gauge on it and crank it with the IP fuel solenoid disabled.
alos how on earth are you unable to find a leak that big?

 

[turbodieseldyke]

how on earth are you unable to find a leak that big?

because it dumped out on the street when he wasn't looking.

 

[MukGyver]

I would do everything you can to find the leak without starting the engine. I've found many oil leaks with just good lighting and rags. start at the lowest points and work upwards.

 

[Seatman]

Maybe the oil return pipe for the turbo has popped, that would drain a lot fast.

 

[Mozambiquer]

I had the oil cooler o-ring fail on an aba. Its exactly the same one as the ahu has, and it's a very common thing to let go. In my case, it dumped the oil in one mile. That's one of the first things I would check.

 

[Benjamis]

Its definitely not coming out of the oil cooler/filter, I did inspect that region and it is dry. It's coming out of the back passenger side of the engine. My car is a 45 minute drive away from me and I'm not going to go look at it right now, and on the day it happened, I was feverish and achy for the first time in over 2 years and didn't have it in me to care to really go in and find out what it was, did not have proper tools there, etc.

I just posted this early to see if people knew what it was, kind of like a quiz or a riddle, or to see if it was something that has happened to someone before. And now it's too wet to tow a car onto my little gravel driveway in the country. So I will probably go there one day soon with tools and rags and such and figure out what it is. In the meantime I entertain all speculation and insights and ideas.

 

[Mozambiquer]

Its definitely not coming out of the oil cooler/filter, I did inspect that region and it is dry. It's coming out of the back passenger side of the engine. My car is a 45 minute drive away from me and I'm not going to go look at it right now, and on the day it happened, I was feverish and achy for the first time in over 2 years and didn't have it in me to care to really go in and find out what it was, did not have proper tools there, etc.

I just posted this early to see if people knew what it was, kind of like a quiz or a riddle, or to see if it was something that has happened to someone before. And now it's too wet to tow a car onto my little gravel driveway in the country. So I will probably go there one day soon with tools and rags and such and figure out what it is. In the meantime I entertain all speculation and insights and ideas.

I think there is an oil galley plug under the timing cover (could be wrong though) I had one blow on one of my 1.6 idi engines in a rabbit. It dumped the oil out quickly. Either way, topping it off, cleaning it up and starting it should show you where the leak is pretty quickly.

 

[Steve Addy]

Before I'd write off the timing belt I'd liberally spray it down with brake cleaner and let it dry. Then examine to see if there's any oil residue left. If you're worried about it then replace it, but you might be ok.

I've done it to belts where I've accidentally touched it with oily / greasy hands or gotten oil on it unintentionally.

Steve

 

[Ralphy]

A long time ago, the same thing happened to me: it was the turbo feed line that broke near the turbo. That line is supported by metal brackets that are prone to rust until they do not support anymore.

 

[Benjamis]

Thanks for all the ideas and speculation. So I got to tearing into it today. I didn't see oil leaking from the turbo region, so I added some oil and fired it back up and saw oil streaming from the lower timing cover. So I pulled the harmonic balancer and lower timing cover, and sure enough, could see through one of the holes in the intermediate shaft sprocket that that brand new seal I put in was split up. A case here of, "it wasn't broke but I thought I would fix it anyway while I was in there, and ruined a timing belt job and layed a trail of oil in a client's driveway over it". I was very careful when I put the new seal on and made sure it was seated properly on the shaft, I used a mirror to inspect it all the way around, but to no avail. I replaced the o-ring as well. I went in there to begin with because there was a bit of side to side play in the shaft and wanted to inspect the bearing.

So anyway I pulled the timing belt and the intermediate shaft sprocket, and here's how she looks.

20210623_180417.jpg

• Benjamis
• Jun 23, 2021

20210623_180426.jpg

• Benjamis
• Jun 23, 2021

20210623_181446.jpg

• Benjamis
• Jun 23, 2021

20210623_181503.jpg

• Benjamis
• Jun 23, 2021

20210623_181723.jpg

• Benjamis
• Jun 23, 2021

Anybody ever have this happen before? Total user error or could it be a defective or dry rotted seal? Installation seemed pretty fool-proof to me. I lightly oiled the lip as recommended in the service manual. The seal is an Elring, thought it was a good one. The old seal was black, new one is reddish orange. Same seal as the camshaft seal correct? What's the problem?

 

[Benjamis]

Elring Part Number 068 103 085A, came in unopened Elring box. It was definitely a snug fit, I had to rotate it back and forth to fit it on. Must have split when I put it on, then blew out 20 miles later. Apparently not very durable. I lost a quart of oil when I started it back up for 1 minute to see where it was coming from. Was surprised so much could come out of a shaft seal, torn or not.

 

[Seatman]

Yeh it looks like it got snagged when fitting, I would oil the new one and rotate it a bit while fitting to make sure the lip goes in properly before tapping home. Is this a case of you can't get a good straight on view when fitting?

I've never had the displeasure of dealing with a passat timing belt lol.

 

[MukGyver]

Slide it on then slide it off and examine it. If its going to split it will most likely split the first time going on.

 

[Steve Addy]

Never had that happen before.

Was the seal lubricated at all before installing? The tear is really suspicious....

Technically the cam, crank and intermediate shaft can share seals, they're all the same size.

Oil is on the front of the engine. That’s why I mentioned seals.

btw, you sure your Jetta is a 1Z? I thought they were all AHU.

-Todd

Only 98-99 were AHU, the 97's were 1Z.

Steve

 

[Mongler98]

Happend to me when I installed one. Same issue.
Just replace the belt. It's cheap enough. That was the advice I got when I had this issue.

 

[Benjamis]

Slide it on then slide it off and examine it. If its going to split it will most likely split the first time going on.

Actually I did pull it off after the first time because when I went to fetch the bolts it kind of popped out of place, and I wanted to make sure I didn't pinch the o-ring. Nothing looked out of normal.

Was the seal lubricated at all before installing? The tear is really suspicious....

Yes it was lightly lubricated with oil as recommended in the Bentley service manual.

Happend to me when I installed one. Same issue.

That's a major bummer. Any idea what happened? I guess your replacement seal worked?

 

[Mongler98]

When i did my TB i changed all the seals because i used to think you need to replace lightbulbs before they go out!!!!!!! easy rookie mistake
took 45 minutes start to finish to swap that out and a new belt. mark and pray though because i just did the belt 10 miles ago! $28 belt! well back then lol

 

[Benjamis]

So the new seal worked I guess, did you do anything different while installing? Just wiggle it on a pray?
Maybe these seals are fine 99.9% of the time no matter how they are popped on there, and we were the 1 in a thousand.

 

[Mongler98]

So the new seal worked I guess, did you do anything different while installing? Just wiggle it on a pray?
Maybe these seals are fine 99.9% of the time no matter how they are popped on there, and we were the 1 in a thousand.

No. I learned the old trick of wrapping the end of the shaft with some sinch wrap and greasing it up. Seems to help. Probably was just in a rush the first time

 

[MukGyver]

No. I learned the old trick of wrapping the end of the shaft with some sinch wrap and greasing it up. Seems to help. Probably was just in a rush the first time

I attest to the sinch (saran) wrap over the end. Or spend a little time wet sanding the chamfer edges (finishing with fine) and just add grease after that. Help the next unsuspecting sucker too

 

[Steve Addy]

Cleaning the outer edge of the intermediate shaft has good results. I've done it without but it's easier to get the lip up and onto the flat if you do. It's also easier on the seal lip too I think.

Steve