Engine / body vibration at idle

passatTDI2005

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Location
Yardley, PA
TDI
2005 PASSAT Wagon (green) , 2004 Passat Wagon (black)
Hello all,
Is there a thread or discussion on how to diagnose excessive vibration from engine at idle? my 04 wagon (102k mile) is still making noise chain rattling and vibrates crazy at idle. vibration is less at RPMs 1200-1300 and higher RPMs. the whole car vibrates badly. I change the trans, motor and torque mounts. I put in a Alt. pulley which free wheels in one direction. belt tensioner pulley shakes a little but so does the other car ( 05 wagon ) that is not vibrating ( it is MUCH quieter, smoother engine w/ 165k miles on it)

I borrowed a friends VCDS diag tool. At idle, 190 running temp, everything accessories off, the VCDS engine block 4 showed a torsion value of -2.9 .
I thinks its suppose to be between 0 to .5 We moved ( adjusted ) the cam shaft pulley about a 1/4 inch. then the VCDS reads 4.5 torsion value. However, nothing changed in vibration, still bad. Also engine starts like a champ, after 2 cranks, like it did before the cam timing adjustment.

So now I am looking to you collective experts to help guide me on how to diagnose the shake rattle and roll :) vibration problem.

Maybe I should have more beers and lower the tire pressure? lol ;)

Thanks
Aria
 

peiphil

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Location
Tignish PEI Canada
TDI
2005 passat GLS TDI and big old Dodge Cummins TDI
Less beers take the chain off put geared bsm or delete kit and then set torsion value right !
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
4.5 is as bad as -2.9.

Try again and adjust it to 0.0.

Also, what are your VCDS group 13 injector balance readings?
 

passatTDI2005

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Location
Yardley, PA
TDI
2005 PASSAT Wagon (green) , 2004 Passat Wagon (black)
4.5 is as bad as -2.9.

Try again and adjust it to 0.0.

Also, what are your VCDS group 13 injector balance readings?
adjusted the cam timing several times till I got 0.0 torsion value.
Vibration may be a little better, but not much better. So it is still badly shaking.
( Conditions: 11 p.m. beautiful Full moon, head lamp, work lights and NO beers since Saturday ! :)

Is it BSM Surgery time?

here is data from VCDS group 4 and 13 :
22:54:33 Group 004: Basic Functions - Injection Timing
861 /min Engine Speed (G28)
1.6 °BTDC Injection Start
6.6°KW Injection Duration
0.0°KW Torsion Value

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Address 01: Engine (038 997 016 T)

22:54:48 Group 013: Idle Stabilization
0.00 mg/str Injection Quantity Cylinder 1
-0.45 mg/str Injection Quantity Cylinder 2
0.00 mg/str Injection Quantity Cylinder 3
0.45 mg/str Injection Quantity Cylinder 4
 

passatTDI2005

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Location
Yardley, PA
TDI
2005 PASSAT Wagon (green) , 2004 Passat Wagon (black)
what do these Injection Quantity values mean? range is from -0.45 , 0.00, +0.45

another group 13 values showed:
0.02 mg/str Injection Quantity Cylinder 1
-0.66 mg/str Injection Quantity Cylinder 2
0.07 mg/str Injection Quantity Cylinder 3
0.52 mg/str Injection Quantity Cylinder 4

are any of the injectors plugged up?
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
Nope, those readings are normal - they represent the amount that each injection event needs to be adjusted to maintain proper engine operation. They're within normal ranges.

The question is do you have a proper running engine which transmits too much vibration into the car, or is the engine not running correctly?

I would suspect the former. Fun fact - the BSM is not there to address idle smoothness, its "job" is to counteract 2nd order vibrations which are most pronounced around 2000 rpm.

Do you have the ability to record and upload (say to youtoob) a video of the engine running?

Where did you obtain the engine and transmission mounts you just replaced?
 

1854sailor

Resident Curmudgeon
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Location
Baltimore, MD and Westerly, RI
TDI
2015 Golf SE SportWagen, 2015 Golf SE Hatch Back.
Did you properly adjust the front snubber when you did the mounts? If you have chain noise, you should either go geared or do a BSM delete.
 

passatTDI2005

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Location
Yardley, PA
TDI
2005 PASSAT Wagon (green) , 2004 Passat Wagon (black)
Did you properly adjust the front snubber when you did the mounts? If you have chain noise, you should either go geared or do a BSM delete.
Honestly, I am technical but new to VWs. what is snubber? So No I did not adjust it, since I don't know what it is. :confused: Please let me know or point me to link .
I am planning on doing the chain removal and most likely go to Geared. something tells me it ( going with geared) may be better than having no BSM (delete optioin):rolleyes:
Thanks.
 

passatTDI2005

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Location
Yardley, PA
TDI
2005 PASSAT Wagon (green) , 2004 Passat Wagon (black)
Nope, those readings are normal - they represent the amount that each injection event needs to be adjusted to maintain proper engine operation. They're within normal ranges.

The question is do you have a proper running engine which transmits too much vibration into the car, or is the engine not running correctly?

I would suspect the former. Fun fact - the BSM is not there to address idle smoothness, its "job" is to counteract 2nd order vibrations which are most pronounced around 2000 rpm.

Do you have the ability to record and upload (say to youtoob) a video of the engine running?

Where did you obtain the engine and transmission mounts you just replaced?
Engine and transmission mounts from Advanced Auto parts ( an automotive parts chain) . One Motor mount is Corteco, other is MTC USA ( made in Taiwan) , trans mounts are Anchor Industries . They are Not OEM and that is probably a mistake :(

I am uploading a video of engine running, title is:
My 2004 vw passat tdi engine sound 09162016

thank you for your care and insight.
 

passatTDI2005

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Location
Yardley, PA
TDI
2005 PASSAT Wagon (green) , 2004 Passat Wagon (black)
My 2004 vw passat tdi engine sound

To locate my YouTube video, it has come to my attention that searching for
My 2004 vw passat tdi engine will locate it faster.
Thanks in advance for any hep.
 

1854sailor

Resident Curmudgeon
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Location
Baltimore, MD and Westerly, RI
TDI
2015 Golf SE SportWagen, 2015 Golf SE Hatch Back.
Honestly, I am technical but new to VWs. what is snubber? So No I did not adjust it, since I don't know what it is. :confused: Please let me know or point me to link .
I am planning on doing the chain removal and most likely go to Geared. something tells me it ( going with geared) may be better than having no BSM (delete optioin):rolleyes:
Thanks.
VW calls it the "Bump Stop". There is a round rubber mount at the front of the engine, which fits over the bracket on the crossover pipe. This rubber donut fits in the "Limit Stop". It is adjusted by loosening the bolts and letting it rest on the rubber piece under its own weight. Retorque the bolts to 30 Nm.

Are your axles genuine VW, or Chinesium replacements?
 

johnboy00

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Location
Bridgewater,Ma.,USA
TDI
2005 Passat Wagon, 2004 Jetta, 2003 Jetta wagon
Honestly, I am technical but new to VWs. what is snubber? So No I did not adjust it, since I don't know what it is. :confused: Please let me know or point me to link .
I am planning on doing the chain removal and most likely go to Geared. something tells me it ( going with geared) may be better than having no BSM (delete optioin):rolleyes:
Thanks.

I am geared but if I had to do it again, I would do the delete. Some Passat owners with geared BSMs have reported that their hex shaft rounded out leading to no oil pressure. In most, if not all cases where this happened, the turbo was damaged.

The only downside to the delete is some minor additional vibrations, that no one with a delete has complained about, IIRC.

Good Luck!
 

vwztips

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Location
Greenville, SC
TDI
2005 Passat GLS Wagon TDI 5 spd manual w/BSM delete 2012 Tiguan TDI/DSG 2004 Audi TT R-line Conv 2011 BMW X5 35d
First, aftermarket mounts will absolutely cause this. I tried cheaper mounts once. Drove 100 miles and couldn't take the vibrations. Replaced with VW units. Those mounts are still on my shelf.

Second please answer the question about the type of axles you have.
 

passatTDI2005

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Location
Yardley, PA
TDI
2005 PASSAT Wagon (green) , 2004 Passat Wagon (black)
VW calls it the "Bump Stop". There is a round rubber mount at the front of the engine, which fits over the bracket on the crossover pipe. This rubber donut fits in the "Limit Stop". It is adjusted by loosening the bolts and letting it rest on the rubber piece under its own weight. Retorque the bolts to 30 Nm.

Are your axles genuine VW, or Chinesium replacements?
Found the front white rubber donut. I thought it was called "engine torque mount". It is resting in the bracket on front crossover pipe.

The Axles : I have not changed either one. Right side (passenger side) looks very new with vw Audio tag, parts ID barcode on it, seems OEM part. The left side seems original to car at 102,000 Miles. I took some picturers of both sides not sure if needed to post them or how?

Could bad worn out CV joints cause vibration ?

Sorry for delay in answering. I was away with work and from my Passat wagon .
 

passatTDI2005

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Location
Yardley, PA
TDI
2005 PASSAT Wagon (green) , 2004 Passat Wagon (black)
First, aftermarket mounts will absolutely cause this. I tried cheaper mounts once. Drove 100 miles and couldn't take the vibrations. Replaced with VW units. Those mounts are still on my shelf.

Second please answer the question about the type of axles you have.
hi there, Sorry for delay answering . I was away and could not get under the car to verify.

Axles going from Trans to front wheels: right side looks newer with VW Audio label on it. Leftside (driver) looks original to car with 102,000 miles.

Thanks
 

passatTDI2005

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Location
Yardley, PA
TDI
2005 PASSAT Wagon (green) , 2004 Passat Wagon (black)
I put the video w/ engine sound on youtube.
not sure if vibration is from loose chain, new mounts, or axles or all the above? :rolleyes:
Regarding BSM, delete seems less expensive in parts and eliminating the chance of hex shaft failing. aside from vibration any other side effects?

The noisy engine one ( '04 Black) is also the one which has a lot of vibration since I put in new mounts. This same one also has a bit of play when engine is coasting and if i press the gas (or diesel ) pedal a bit, I can get the engine / tranny to rock back and forth a bit , to a point of its not comfortable and car will also start a bit of back and forth rocking. As if a linkage or something is not tight and has more play in it than it should. I thought the new tranny and Motor mounts would fix that, but I got more vibration
:eek::)
Just trying to provide all the clues , so to help you experts, help me solve my car problem.

thanks

Aria
 

peiphil

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Location
Tignish PEI Canada
TDI
2005 passat GLS TDI and big old Dodge Cummins TDI
I hear a bad chain !
Mine sounded like that at 100k kilometers or 60k miles
I bought the geared kit for about $1350 and installed it myself
that was 60k ago and still perfect and quiet !
 

passatTDI2005

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Location
Yardley, PA
TDI
2005 PASSAT Wagon (green) , 2004 Passat Wagon (black)
I hear a bad chain !
Mine sounded like that at 100k kilometers or 60k miles
I bought the geared kit for about $1350 and installed it myself
that was 60k ago and still perfect and quiet !
Thanks for listening. the noise is telling me to fix it asap, before chain breaks. Big Question is: Go with Geared mod. or Delete ?
I have heard 2 people, each with different choice.
I like the Delete idea, except does it cause even more vibration?
Does Geared modification's hex shaft drive still a concern for future failure ?:confused:
 

vwztips

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Location
Greenville, SC
TDI
2005 Passat GLS Wagon TDI 5 spd manual w/BSM delete 2012 Tiguan TDI/DSG 2004 Audi TT R-line Conv 2011 BMW X5 35d
Save your money. Instal the delete. Your engine will rev freer and in most cases your mpg will increase slightly
 

Zambee500

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Location
Atlanta, GA
TDI
2005 Passat GLS TDI
What 'tips said. Eliminate the pesky hex shaft, take the money saved and re-replace the motor and trans mounts with OE parts, and then get a tune to make the car more fun to drive. Much better performance, likely better fuel efficiency, and you should still come out ahead financially versus going with geared BSM.
 

peiphil

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Location
Tignish PEI Canada
TDI
2005 passat GLS TDI and big old Dodge Cummins TDI
You will see some folks for the gears and some against !
The new geared kits have an upgraded and longer hex shaft .
Why would VW put the counter balance shafts in if the engine didn't need them ?
I didn't want mine to vibrate .
 

passatTDI2005

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Location
Yardley, PA
TDI
2005 PASSAT Wagon (green) , 2004 Passat Wagon (black)
Thank you all. What a great bunch of people.
I've decided to go the Delete BSM method. It was less expensive in parts, eliminated the potential hex shaft failure. I think less heavy moving parts make an engine more responsive and more efficient in having less mass to move around.

I contacted Roman at Automotive Consulting services in Hatboro PA. He is a sharp guy, funny, personable and seems to know his TDIs. Will get BSM Delete, Timing Belt , pulley, and Better mounts, etc..
Will let you know how the car performs and sounds in couple of weeks.
Hoping for less vibration and noise, less worries about catastrophic failure and long road trips!!
Thanks Again everyone.

Aria:)
 

passatTDI2005

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Location
Yardley, PA
TDI
2005 PASSAT Wagon (green) , 2004 Passat Wagon (black)
Hello everyone,
BSM Delete update:
It is about 2.5 years later and 32000 miles since BSM Delete done on Oct. 2016. The work was done by Roman( his info below). With the Delete job, I had The water pump, Timing belt, T-stat and OEM mounts installed.

Roman Goldin ACS
21 NORTH YORK RD UNIT 3B
HATBORO PA 19040
2673178229

The car and engine have been working fine since. I have been happy with the result.
The only thing noticeable is slight increase in vibration during the drive. There is a very noticeable vibration while in gear and stopped in traffic, which is even stronger vibration in cold weather . The cold weather may be effecting the motor mounts dampening effect. This vibration during stops, may not be related to BSM Delete.

A New problem, most likely not related to above work, has come up with engine and cooling system in last 2-3 month. Cooling system gets pressurized, somehow gas gets into heater core and we lose coolant. I have noticed gas bubbles come from small tube on upper part of coolant reservoir into reservoir, which increase with RPM.
I have tried to purge the gas in heater core, by pulling the heater core tube with small hole till coolant sprays out , several times. with Gas or air getting into the system, it causes lack of heat in cabin, coolant loss and pressurized cooling system. I am suspecting Head Gasket leak allowing high pressure exhaust gas to enter into the cooling veins and pressurizing the cooling system. Not sure though, I will research posts about this issue.
If anyone has experienced this, knows of posts or links related please let me know.

Thank you

Aria :)
 

afarfalla

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Location
sugar land tx
TDI
05 Passat sedan and 05 wagen
yes, engine vibrates more with the delete option, that's why mounts are so important.


Sounds like your heater core is plugged, run some vinegar thru it, there are a couple of good posts on how to clean it out
 

50harleyrider

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Location
charleston,wv
TDI
2005 B5.5 TDI/geared BSM, BV43A turbo,stage 2 TDTUNING. 2005 5sp manual passat tdi stage 2 tdtuning,BSM delete. 2015 Passat TDI 6sp manual.
I am geared but if I had to do it again, I would do the delete. Some Passat owners with geared BSMs have reported that their hex shaft rounded out leading to no oil pressure. In most, if not all cases where this happened, the turbo was damaged.

The only downside to the delete is some minor additional vibrations, that no one with a delete has complained about, IIRC.

Good Luck!
Look at my thread. I have deleted and geared cars that are both dailys. The geared is much smoother and less vibrating. VW didn't offer the geared BSM for no reason and I don't recall them offering the delete. My geared car has over 100k on the 'alleged' hex shaft issue and runs great. Cost comparison is hands down delete but is cost all that drives us? I think not.
 
Last edited:

Kravt

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 31, 2018
Location
Lexington, Ky
TDI
2005 Passat
I was having rough idle and vibration and followed 1854sailor's comment (#11) about adjusting the snub mount bracket. It ended up resolving the problem completely! Turns out I had tightened the bracket with the engine lifted up slightly, putting all the weight (and vibration) on the snub mount.


Aria, did you ever figure out the air ingress issue? I notice a lot of heater core air bubble noises during operation and think it may have something to do with loose connections/rubber hose degradation under the tandem pump at the back of the engine.
 

bruca003

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2009
Location
toronto
TDI
2004 golf GLS TDI, 2005 passat wagon tdi.
I just purchased a 2005 passat wagon tdi. Zero rust. Currently at 300000km. I also hear a constant low buzz/vibration at idle, park and drive. Prevouus Owner says he knows nothing about the balance shaft issue and claims he has never done the repair. Brought it to my mechanic yesterday who is a vw specialist and he tells me not to worry. He says use the proper spec oil in it and drive it !! I'm worried to be honest and I really want to repair before catastrophic engine damage occurs. I think I'll have him drop the pan and inspect to see if it was actually done at some point.
 
Top