Emusifier or Demulsifier

CedarPark68

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Additive used: Stanadyne Performance Formula
Demulsifier or Emulsifier: Demulsifier
Vehicle engine type: PD_BHW
Reasoning: OE Approved by Caterpillar, Ford, GM, John Deere, Navistar, VAG, Volvo etc.

www.stanadyne.com

http://www.stanadyne.com/docs/puba/99625 PF poster.pdf
+1
I use 4 oz. of Performance Formual and 1 oz. of Lubricity Formula every tank.

I do not agree with the definition of an emulsifier offered by the original poster.

Definition...

Emulsification: The process by which two disparate liquids are combined.

Call it tiny droplets if you will, but you do not want your diesel combined with water into a single principle.

Also regarding Stanadyne:

They have been in the business of design, development and manufacture of diesel injectors for many years.
Molecular structure of of Standadyne LF is almost exactly that of what is added to the tankers at the rail.
 

TornadoRed

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Demulsifiers work only when the fuel-water mixture has time to settle and for the water to drop to the bottom of the tank. This can happen in stationary tanks and if a mobile tank is going to be stationary for days or weeks. It cannot happen efficiently when the storage tank is mobile or if water is not being drained from the bottom of the fuel tank. Putting a drain on the bottom of the fuel filter is pointless unless it's one of those super-dooper ones.

Like this one: http://www.twinsrecreation.com/fs179725.html
It will work, I think, but it costs $425 plus shipping. Plus it is rated at 30 microns... I prefer one that removes particles down to 1 or 2 microns.
 

CedarPark68

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Imagine a beaker with diesel and water, with water at a slightly over exaggerated ratio.
If one constantly agitates that mixture for a time the mixture might appear to be a single principal mixture, however this will never be the case.
After agitation stops, over quite a short period, the two mixtures which could not be mixed together will show their true characteristics.

Add an emulsifier .... now the liquids are in fact mixed into a single principal liquid. The water turned into very tiny microscopic particles.

Agitation or not, after the addition of the emulsifier, this is how the liquid remain.

To finish the above, adding a water demulsifer would seek to return the two liquids back to their immiscible form.

The stationary vs. mobile argument, is not sound. An emulsifier does not require agitation, a demulsifer does not require rest.
 

shakescreek

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"Like this one: http://www.twinsrecreation.com/fs179725.html
It will work, I think, but it costs $425 plus shipping. Plus it is rated at 30 microns... I prefer one that removes particles down to 1 or 2 microns."


Thats the type of filter I run on my boat. They usually come with a 30 micron in them but the replacement cartridges are available in 2, 10, 20 or 30 micron ratings. I run the 2 micron cartridges in the racor as my primary filter and have one of the Nicktane 1 micron units after it for a secondary.
 

KB3MMX

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AMEN!

I can tell you that running a de-emulsifier WILL CAUSE RUST TO FORM IN YOUR INJECTORS! DO NOT use them!

Your nozzles are the lowest point in the fuel system, any guesses as to where the water is going to settle?

With a De-Emulsifier you CANNOT control when or where that water is going to settle out. Sure most may get stopped in that fuel filter, but how about the droplets that form past it as inside the pump and injectors? How do you filter that out?

I can tell you that there is BIG difference between those injectors that run Power Service on a regular basis and those that do not. Simply put the PS injectors do not have rust or any trace of corrosion anywhere in side the injector or nozzle.

The key to protecting the motor is to PREVENT free water from forming, which is what a De-Emulsifier will do, create free water that can now destroy the fuel system components.
The water should have never reached the injectors once its removed from suspension and the water separator does It's job to keep it out of the injection system.
Water that makes it past the water seperator because it has been Emulsified is what causes corrosion , scarring and wear of the injection system, in addition to higher rate of injector tip failure.
A good example of Emulsified water corrosion is with Ethanol and Methanol fuel that is Hygroscopic by nature (absorbs water) and can contain large amounts of Emulsified moisture if left exposed to humid air, resulting in terrible corrosion!

Anyway, long story short, drop the water out of the fuel (Demulsify) and let the water separator do It's job to keep it from entering the injection system.

Carry on.
 

TornadoRed

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KB3MMX: I think I trust Driviwire's advice more than I trust yours.
 

KB3MMX

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KB3MMX: I think I trust Driviwire's advice more than I trust yours.

That's fine but let me ask you one logical question....

** If water does no harm to a diesel, why is there a water separator to keep it out of the precision fuel system components??
Remember water is not a fuel and the engine is not designed to run on It.
Advice is cheap and stupidity can be very costly, let's use some common sense here.
 

TornadoRed

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That's fine but let me ask you one logical question....
** If water does no harm to a diesel, why is there a water separator to keep it out of the precision fuel system components??
Remember water is not a fuel and the engine is not designed to run on It.
Advice is cheap and stupidity can be very costly, let's use some common sense here.
I am not arguing that water is not harmful. What I'm saying is that water separators are most effective in a stationary environment; that they hardly work at all in a mobile environment; and that an emulsifying additive can do more damage than good in a mobile environment.

If there is a lot of water mixed in diesel fuel, then no additive will help. If there's a small quantity of water, then breaking up the droplets into very tiny droplets makes them harmless.
 

KB3MMX

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I am not arguing that water is not harmful. What I'm saying is that water separators are most effective in a stationary environment; that they hardly work at all in a mobile environment; and that an emulsifying additive can do more damage than good in a mobile environment.
If there is a lot of water mixed in diesel fuel, then no additive will help. If there's a small quantity of water, then breaking up the droplets into very tiny droplets makes them harmless.

That's exactly why water Emulsified into diesel is a no no, water going through the injection system in any amount causes accelerated wear and damage....
So emulsifying water into the fuel INSTEAD of dropping it out (Demulsifying) so the water separator can do its job is foolish.
No water should be purposely Emulsified into diesel fuel period.

Also, motion of a normal vehicle will in no way Interfere with Demulsification of water from fuel. If you can keep the water suspended in the fuel with any vehicle using a demulsifier , you would need a in tank high speed blender.


Anyway, the moral of the story is we have diesel engines designed to be ran on Diesel fuel not water. If there is water in your fuel or tank, it needs to be separated and drained, NOT ran through the injection system.

.
 

TornadoRed

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That's exactly why water Emulsified into diesel is a no no, water going through the injection system in any amount causes accelerated wear and damage....
(snip)
Anyway, the moral of the story is we have diesel engines designed to be ran on Diesel fuel not water. If there is water in your fuel or tank, it needs to be separated and drained, NOT ran through the injection system.
I will let you know how it goes. My original IP now has 319k miles on it -- the first 33k miles with the OEM fuel filter with a drain at the bottom, every mile since then with a CAT 2-micron filter without any water separation feature.

I have been using the same emulsifying additive since the 72k-mile point. I am not sure what was in the additive I used from 15k to 72k miles.
 

KB3MMX

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I will let you know how it goes. My original IP now has 319k miles on it -- the first 33k miles with the OEM fuel filter with a drain at the bottom, every mile since then with a CAT 2-micron filter without any water separation feature.
I have been using the same emulsifying additive since the 72k-mile point. I am not sure what was in the additive I used from 15k to 72k miles.

All CAT absolute filters remove -or- absorb water AFAIK but not all have a drain fitting. If the filter plugs, you spin a fresh one on.
CAT makes excellent fuel filters and also has a lot of info on water and other contaminant damage in fuel systems, check it out sometime.
Good choice in fuel filters, it sounds like it has saved your IP.



.
 

TornadoRed

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All CAT absolute filters remove -or- absorb water AFAIK but not all have a drain fitting. If the filter plugs, you spin a fresh one on.
CAT makes excellent fuel filters and also has a lot of info on water and other contaminant damage in fuel systems, check it out sometime.
Good choice in fuel filters, it sounds like it has saved your IP.
If there is water in the fuel when it goes in the CAT filter, then there is water in the fuel when it comes out.

But by removing dirt and other contaminants, then yes it probably has permitted my IP to last such a long time.
 

KB3MMX

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If there is water in the fuel when it goes in the CAT filter, then there is water in the fuel when it comes out.

But by removing dirt and other contaminants, then yes it probably has permitted my IP to last such a long time.
Try reading CAT's info on their fuel filters about water, you may be surprised. The lack of a bottom drain is meaningless, CAT designed their filters to Eliminate ALL free water and up to 87% of Emulsified water......like I said, read their own publications.


http://nicktane.com/images/HDT_article_10-10-03.pdf

Page 3 has a valuable note on tip failure from water passing throuh injectors. Water, a contaminant in diesel fuel, has no business going through any diesel injection system, especially intentionally.:eek:

Cat filters(and most others) try to remove it because water is a contaminant....and emulsified water the hardest contaminant to remove.
Why would you purposely try to get it through the filter into the injection system by Emulsifying more water into the fuel and defeating one of the major functions of the filter?:confused:

emulsified water corrosion&damage
http://www.dieselpump.com/tips.html

Testing for emulsified water in fuel to prevent damage:
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200421991_200421991

Some more reading on water in diesel:
http://www.eesiflo.com/water_in_diesel_fuel.html


Interesting stuff, huh.
 
Last edited:

dweisel

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dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Try reading CAT's info on their fuel filters about water, you may be surprised. The lack of a bottom drain is meaningless, CAT designed their filters to Eliminate ALL free water and up to 87% of Emulsified water......like I said, read their own publications.


http://nicktane.com/images/HDT_article_10-10-03.pdf

Page 3 has a valuable note on tip failure from water passing throuh injectors. Water, a contaminant in diesel fuel, has no business going through any diesel injection system, especially intentionally.:eek:

Cat filters(and most others) try to remove it because water is a contaminant....and emulsified water the hardest contaminant to remove.
Why would you purposely try to get it through the filter into the injection system by Emulsifying more water into the fuel and defeating one of the major functions of the filter?:confused:

emulsified water corrosion&damage
http://www.dieselpump.com/tips.html

Testing for emulsified water in fuel to prevent damage:
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200421991_200421991

Some more reading on water in diesel:
http://www.eesiflo.com/water_in_diesel_fuel.html


Interesting stuff, huh.
KB3MMX, great info. You're not going to convince anyone that emulsifing water is a bad thing.

I know I don't want any water ran through my fuel system.

Do you really want to try and force this to mix with your fuel and send it through your fuel system?

 

nj1266

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KB3MMX, great info. You're not going to convince anyone that emulsifing water is a bad thing.

I know I don't want any water ran through my fuel system.

Do you really want to try and force this to mix with your fuel and send it through your fuel system?

I got similar sediments in my diesel fuel canister when I used Opti-Lube Summer blend (has a demulsifier). I do not remember getting said sediments when I was using Schaeffer DT-2000 (has an emlusifier).

As for water going through the injectors. I do recall that a lot of diesel cars use water injection when going for higher output. If it works for these cars, why would it do harm for ours?
 

Bob_Fout

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I got similar sediments in my diesel fuel canister when I used Opti-Lube Summer blend (has a demulsifier). I do not remember getting said sediments when I was using Schaeffer DT-2000 (has an emlusifier).

As for water going through the injectors. I do recall that a lot of diesel cars use water injection when going for higher output. If it works for these cars, why would it do harm for ours?
Is that situation the water goes into the intake manifold, not in the fuel.
 

03_01_TDI

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Bumping this old thread since its the larger one on the topic.

My concern with water is ethanol contamination and bacteria growth. With a demulsifer the water would primary settle in the bottom of the fuel tank and fuel filter. Once at the bottom it builds up over time and then any ethanol will also sink and mix in with the water. After x amount of time the water ethanol blend builds up in the tank/filter. Who much and how soon, idk. If you fill up before getting low you could build up a decent amount. If you run on a low tank the odds of sucking up this higher concentrated water blend is greater. Also the water separation in a fuel filter on a cold morning in which the thermostat is closed would blend up this mixture and just suck it down, correct?

The argument is a demulsifer drops the water out of the fuel and allows for it to be separated by the fuel filter. May I ask just how the water was pumped to the fuel filter for separation when its sitting at the bottom of the fuel tank?

Seams like an emulsifer which entraps the small water molecule and allows it to be passed harmlessly through the system without any build up would be superior.
 
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ISurvivedNMU

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Your fuel pickup tube is at the bottom of the tank and your fuel sloshes (really technical term) around whne driving. The water that falls would be sucked up before it can really build up and would be trapped in the fuel filter area.
 

03_01_TDI

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Your fuel pickup tube is at the bottom of the tank and your fuel sloshes (really technical term) around whne driving. The water that falls would be sucked up before it can really build up and would be trapped in the fuel filter area.

So the demulsifer causes the water to separate out of the fuel and then be pumped throughout the system. Wouldn't it be better to emulsify those molecules instead of pumping around larger amounts of water?

I guess my concern is what happens to this water with the demulsifer? Seams like with either product the water gets pumped around and burned up.

I know larger machines have a better oil water separator and then it would be best to use a demulsifer.

I've pulled up to a quart of water off of a 1800 gal tanker after recirculating it. Of course that was South American fuels.
 

03_01_TDI

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I like what PS says about most products not containing enough compounds to effectively E or D. So I am not going to worry about it either way. The gallon of summer plus will be acceptable. Though I may use some soyshield to stabilize the bioD mixture as my tdi sits for several days at a time.
 

03_01_TDI

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I read that link- Perfect explanation.

The shade tree mech in me wants to put some mason jars up with various additives and a measured amount of water. Then wait and see what happens.
 

Bob_Fout

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I read that link- Perfect explanation.

The shade tree mech in me wants to put some mason jars up with various additives and a measured amount of water. Then wait and see what happens.
FPPF has a good demonstration of this with water-finding paste.
 
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