Emusifier or Demulsifier

dweisel

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dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
+1

Since I have no storage tanks, when I pour in an additive to regular ULSD it is always an additive with emulsifying properties. In part this is because my fuel filtration system has no drain for water. But even if it did, those do not work very well in a mobile environment.

I've always been "old school" diesel with 30+ years of heavy equipment operation as both an operatior and an owner operator. So, my diesel experience comes from way back.(the good old days) Thats not saying that over 30+ years things don't change and the new techniques of today don't work better. I've always looked at any fuel tank as fuel storage. And that it was better to drop the water out of the fuel than to emulsify it and try to run it through the engine. Therefore thats why I based my use of a demulsifing additive for any equipment,tractors or cars that I've owned.
Evidently Bentley must feel so too. Section 20. Fuel Storage and Supply in the Bentley Manual.

But in the end it all comes down to. What you personally feel comfortable with.

dweisel
 

nj1266

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Why? Why do you go against VW engineers' recommendation to change oil every 10k miles and change it at 5k miles? Do you know something that they don't?
Before VW switched to free oil changes, the OCI was 5,000 miles for the first 10,000 miles and then 10,000 miles thereafter. I felt that this was a better schedule than 10,000 miles for the first oil change.
 

dieselfuel

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FYI,

Someone earlier mentioned Power Service 911. Anyone interested in this product may want to try their local Wal-Mart. I noticed the PS 911 last week at our local WM.

At the time, I wasn't sure what it was. Now, I may go back this evening and buy a bottle.
 

n1das

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FYI,

Someone earlier mentioned Power Service 911. Anyone interested in this product may want to try their local Wal-Mart. I noticed the PS 911 last week at our local WM.

At the time, I wasn't sure what it was. Now, I may go back this evening and buy a bottle.

IIRC, PS 911 is for diesel fuel emergencies only where you're already stuck in the dead of winter with a tankful of gelled or iced up fuel. It's some bada$$ stuff. Over-use of PS 911 may do harm. :eek:

From copies of emails from Brian Wilson at PS tech support posted in several older E vs. D threads, the PS Diesel Fuel supplement (white bottle) has a small amount of the PS 911 formula in it....enough to prevent water problems in normal use and not do any harm. One of Brian's emails also mentioned that PS DFS is NEITHER an emulsifier or a demulsifier when it comes to taking care of water. (Anybody have a copy of Brian's emails with more info?)
 

flyboy320

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IIRC, PS 911 is for diesel fuel emergencies only where you're already stuck in the dead of winter with a tankful of gelled or iced up fuel. It's some bada$$ stuff. Over-use of PS 911 may do harm. :eek:

From copies of emails from Brian Wilson at PS tech support posted in several older E vs. D threads, the PS Diesel Fuel supplement (white bottle) has a small amount of the PS 911 formula in it....enough to prevent water problems in normal use and not do any harm. One of Brian's emails also mentioned that PS DFS is NEITHER an emulsifier or a demulsifier when it comes to taking care of water. (Anybody have a copy of Brian's emails with more info?)
There is a lot of debate and a lot of misinformation going on. Some of our competitors will take shots at us through the chat rooms and this really causes a lot of confusion as they well intend to do.

This is going to be a long answer to your question, however if you do not understand what a emulsifier, demulsifier and a solubilizer are then you will never be able to settle any questions or debates over their use. The short answer is that our Diesel Fuel Supplement and Diesel Kleen contains neither a demulsifier or emulsifier. Please read the following for a complete answer and the reasons.


A Demulsifier, an emulsifier and a water solubilizer are all water dispersants. All diesel fuel has dissolved water in it. The water that is in diesel fuel, in a dissolved form will not hurt or harm the motor, pumps or injectors. Low Sulfur diesel fuel usually has around 50 to 65ppm (parts per million) water in the fuel. When the water content of the fuel gets around 100ppm or higher, the more likely fuel filter icing will occur when the temperatures become severe.


An emulsifier will pull water up into the fuel as small water droplets and often will cause the fuel to be cloudy. In the winter months when the temperature drops below freezing, these water droplets can freeze on the filter face of the water separator causing the flow of fuel to stop, even though the fuel is still liquid. It does not take much water to cause Fuel Filter Icing problems. Also, as the temperatures drop water in the fuel can fall out depending on how much water is in the fuel and how cold it gets, which adds to water problems. Often these water droplets will freeze before they hit the filter and since almost all diesel
vehicles have water separators this will also cause Fuel Filter Icing. In the summer months water is not as great of a problem since most filters have a valve so you can drain off any free water on the bottom of the fuel filter, however it should be noted that there is not a perfect filter and all filters will allow some of this emulsified water to pass. As long as only small amounts of this emulsified water get pass the filter this most often doesn't cause a problem. Ford and Chevy are the ones that are having the most problems with emulsified water. It doesn't take much of this emulsified water to cause injector damage in their vehicles and this is why they are very firm that one does not use any product that causes emulsification of the water.

Demulsifiers will cause excess water to fall out of the fuel. This water will fall to the bottom of the fuel tank or
fuel system and can cause corrosion, rust, reduced lubricity and in the winter months it can freeze in the fuel lines and prevent fuel flow or also hit the filter and freeze. There are about a dozen demulsifiers or de-hazers on the market. None of them will work on all fuels. You have to test the fuel you are using against the various demulsifiers to see which one will work with that fuel. They are fuel specific and when an additive company says they use demulsifiers in their additives it is for advertisement purposes only. If you talk to any Chemist that knows anything about demulsifiers they will tell you the same thing.

A solubilizer works in a little different way than the other two. It will take the water and solubilize or dissolve it back into the fuel. When this happens you will not have water droplets suspended in the fuel and when you look at the fuel it will be clear and not cloudy. This is the preferred method to get free water out of the system and to keep the water that is in the fuel from falling out. The only problem with a solubilizer is that it works on small amounts of water at a time. This means that if you have a water problem and it is not sever a water solubilizer can work very well, will be effective and will cause no hurt or harm in the system. If you have a sever problem then one treatment will not solve the problem. Solubilizers are meant to work slowly and not to cause the fuel to be overloaded with water. If you know that you have a lot of free water in a fuel system then you should drain or pump the water off and then use a water solubilizer. The good news is that in most cases in motor vehicles water is usually at low levels and a solubilizer usually works very well.


Our Diesel Fuel Supplement (DFS) contains a deicer that is intended to keep the water in the fuel from falling out and to help reduce the likelihood of Filter Icing. Warm fuel will carry more water than cold fuel. When it gets cold some water can fall out of the fuel, or the water separator can squeeze out this water which can freeze on the filter face and cause the fuel to stop flowing through the filter even though the fuel is still liquid. This is Fuel Filter Icing and is often mistaken for fuel gelling. The deicer in DFS can also help to solubilize small amounts of water in the fuel system. If too much water is in the
fuel tank it can overpower the deicer in the Diesel Fuel Supplement. So, DFS is neither a demulsifier or an emulsifier.

Diesel Kleen is a non-winter additive and it is intended to give you the very best injector cleaner, cetane, lubricity, fuel stability package and corrosion protection. It will not do much for water and it is not intended to. The injector cleaner is strong enough to clean up a dirty injector to the spray pattern of a new injector. The Cetane Boost will help your engine start quicker, reduce emissions and improve engine
performance. The lubricity package will bring the lubricity of the fuel up to the standard recommended by the fuel pump manufacturers. It meets the N14 Standard for corrosion and it will stabilize the fuel. Diesel Kleen does not contain a demulsifier or an emulsifier. I would recommend using Diesel Kleen in the non-winter months because it has more injector cleaner and cetane boost than the Diesel Fuel Supplement. It will help with a water problem and will also solubilize small amounts of water. It is not a quick fix for a lot of free water.

Our Diesel 911 is a solubilizer. It will take free water and combine it with the fuel so when you look at the fuel it is clear. Diesel 911 will combine with the fuel first and it will also keep the water in the fuel from falling out. It then will act upon the free water in the system. If the fuel is dry and is not saturated with water, it will pick up more free water than when the fuel is wet. A fuel solubilizer will not suspend water in the fuel as water droplets. Diesel 911 also contains a lubricity package to help increase the fuels lubricity since water can adversely affect lubricity. It is not a quick fix but it will solubilize a lot more water than DFS or Diesel Kleen.


There is a lot of misinformation about additives and water dispersants. When you use an additive like our Diesel Fuel Supplement or Diesel Kleen these are mixtures of additives in a package. These various chemicals have to be balanced so they will not separate in their container. It doesn't matter if you use our additives or one of our competitors, a good water dispersant takes a lot of room in the additive package. If you add a strong detergent, strong cetane, excellent lubricity, corrosion, top of the line antigel, and stability to the additive package there is not much room left for a water dispersant. A good multiple benefit package will always have a weak water dispersant package. It is a matter of chemistry. The only way to get a strong water dispersant is to get an additive whose top attribute is to control water like our Diesel 911.


If you think you have a water or water related problem then you need to use our Diesel 911 to get the water under control and then use the Diesel Fuel Supplement for the winter months and the Diesel Kleen for non-winter months. Diesel 911 is completely compatible with Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement and they can be used together in the fuel. If you live in areas where the winter temperatures can be severe then you need to use our Diesel Fuel Supplement. Use the Diesel Kleen in the non-winter months. Also, just before winter I would use the Diesel 911 to help take out the water/condensation in your fuel system. One-third of all fuel flow problems in winter is caused by water. Diesel 911 is the perfect product to take care of this problem. It will solubilize the water back into the fuel so the water will act as a component of the fuel. The water will be in solution and not in droplet form in your fuel. As stated earlier, all fuel contains water. When used as directed it will prevent fuel filter icing problems, it will not hurt or harm your pump or injectors and it is the only practical way to rid the system of water in a
vehicle. Again, use the Diesel 911 when you think you have a water problem.

Diesel 911 does not contain any methyl or ethyl alcohols. It is a proprietary mixture containing Hydroxyl Compounds. These de-icers are used in many diesel fuel additives that are currently on the market. You should use the Diesel 911 only when you have a water problem. Some engine manufacturers do not recommend the use of deicers on a regular basis but only when you have a water problem.


As for you last question about DFS, there are no negative impacts on a diesel engine where the temperatures never go below 60 degrees F. In this situation I would suggest using Diesel Kleen, not because DFS may cause any harm but because Diesel Kleen has more detergents and Cetane Boost which will benefit the motor more by cleaning the injectors better, give better engine performance and better fuel economy. Diesel Kleen also will do a better job on reducing emissions and has a better stability package. When you use Diesel Kleen in the non-winter months you will simply get more benefits for your money.


This is a lot of information to cover so if you want to go over any points in more detail please give me a call or email me and Thanks for giving us the opportunity answer these important questions.


Best regards,


Brian Wilson

Technical Advisor
Compliance Coordinator
(800)643-9089
bwilson@powerservice.com


Power Service Products, Inc.
 
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St.Hubbins

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IIRC, PS 911 is for diesel fuel emergencies only where you're already stuck in the dead of winter with a tankful of gelled or iced up fuel. It's some bada$$ stuff. Over-use of PS 911 may do harm. :eek:
From copies of emails from Brian Wilson at PS tech support posted in several older E vs. D threads, the PS Diesel Fuel supplement (white bottle) has a small amount of the PS 911 formula in it....enough to prevent water problems in normal use and not do any harm. One of Brian's emails also mentioned that PS DFS is NEITHER an emulsifier or a demulsifier when it comes to taking care of water. (Anybody have a copy of Brian's emails with more info?)
well that's reassuring for a PS white user.

anyone else know more about Forte ULSD Booster? lot's of rave reviews from the UK & Canada, but not sure about it's availability here.
 

pleopard

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FYI - I just tried sending an e-mail to Brian Wilson at PS using the e-mail address posted in the message by Flyboy. It bounced. Either their e-mail server is broken or he no longer works for PS.
 

Samcar222

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For the record, I use stanadyne lubricity... 2-3 oz/14.5 gal. It's a demulsifier and it's recommended by the Volkswagen Group... that makes me sleep a heck of a lot better at night...
I will try to get the fuel filter housing opened up at the 10k service at the dealer to check for excess water etc.. I'll have it drained if there is any obviously, and regardless, I'll snap a few pictures.
Anyway..

I've noticed a drop in FE since starting the addition of the additive... 45-46 mpg hwy to about 40-41 mpg. However, it's also november, and we've switched to the winter blend in upstate NY... I'm 97% sure the latter is the culprit, anyone else's thoughts?
 

manual_tranny

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blah blah blah.... ;):D
Best regards,[/B]

Brian Wilson

Technical Advisor
Compliance Coordinator
(800)643-9089
bwilson@powerservice.com


Power Service Products, Inc.
So are you Brian Wilson? If so, I like your power service products. If not, perhaps you could find a way to say this stuff in your own words without links to bing searches... ? :D

EDIT: (actually links to another Forum, then to a bing advert...)
 
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UFO

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There are about a dozen demulsifiers or de-hazers on the market. None of them will work on all fuels. You have to test the fuel you are using against the various demulsifiers to see which one will work with that fuel. They are fuel specific and when an additive company says they use demulsifiers in their additives it is for advertisement purposes only.
Fuel specific? You mean DIESEL right? We are only talking about diesel fuel, so this statement doesn't make any sense to me.
 

wensteph

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And now, for a totally meaningless homemade test....
I'm waiting on delivery of my first TDI and have been doing lots of reading. I decided I'm going to use an additive and this emulsifier/demulsifier thing gave me a headache. I got a gallon of BP diesel from a high volume station and treated it with 1/2 oz of Opti-Lube XPD (a demulsifier) and filled up a glass mason jar. It's been several weeks and there is absolutely no evidence of any water in the bottom of the jar. Nada. What I conclude from my super scientific test is that either:

a) my sample of diesel has no ppm water

or

b) the demusifier in XPD does absolutely nothing

Oh well. I don't think I'm going to worry so much about emulsifier or demulsifier. I'll run through my gallon of XPD and try their Summer Blend (both demulsifiers) because of cost and then try the Diesel Place Kennedy Cocktail (a 50-50 blend of FPPF Total Power and FPPF +8 Cetane, both emulsifiers) and go with what I am comfortable with. This whole E or D question just won't be one of the criteria. Chemistry is hard. :D
 

Bob_Fout

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[/B]Fuel specific? You mean DIESEL right? We are only talking about diesel fuel, so this statement doesn't make any sense to me.
I think what Brian at Power Service means is not all diesel fuels respond to it.
 

nj1266

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Location
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And now, for a totally meaningless homemade test....
I'm waiting on delivery of my first TDI and have been doing lots of reading. I decided I'm going to use an additive and this emulsifier/demulsifier thing gave me a headache. I got a gallon of BP diesel from a high volume station and treated it with 1/2 oz of Opti-Lube XPD (a demulsifier) and filled up a glass mason jar. It's been several weeks and there is absolutely no evidence of any water in the bottom of the jar. Nada. What I conclude from my super scientific test is that either:

a) my sample of diesel has no ppm water

or

b) the demusifier in XPD does absolutely nothing

Oh well. I don't think I'm going to worry so much about emulsifier or demulsifier. I'll run through my gallon of XPD and try their Summer Blend (both demulsifiers) because of cost and then try the Diesel Place Kennedy Cocktail (a 50-50 blend of FPPF Total Power and FPPF +8 Cetane, both emulsifiers) and go with what I am comfortable with. This whole E or D question just won't be one of the criteria. Chemistry is hard. :D
I am in a similar situation.

I have been using Schaeffer Diesel Treat 2000 (an emulsifier that scored well in both Schaeffer's testing and Spicer testing). I am on my last tank of ULSD Shell and DT2000.

I also purchased a gallon of Opti Lube Summer blend (in SoCal you really do not need more that the summer blend). The Summer blend is a de-mulsifier and I am concerened about finding water/rust in filter cansiter down the road if I use it.

So I do not know what to do. Buy another bottle of DT2000 or use the Opti-Lube summer blend?:confused:
 

wensteph

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I am in a similar situation.
I have been using Schaeffer Diesel Treat 2000 (an emulsifier that scored well in both Schaeffer's testing and Spicer testing). I am on my last tank of ULSD Shell and DT2000.
I also purchased a gallon of Opti Lube Summer blend (in SoCal you really do not need more that the summer blend). The Summer blend is a de-mulsifier and I am concerened about finding water/rust in filter cansiter down the road if I use it.
So I do not know what to do. Buy another bottle of DT2000 or use the Opti-Lube summer blend?:confused:
I guess my point was that whether emulsifier or demulsifier is not going to be the product decision factor for me. To quote from dweisel's post 31, "But in the end it all comes down what you personally feel comfortable with." In the practical world, if it really made all the difference, this question would have been decided already. There are what seem to be knowledgeable, respected posters that put forth a logical argument for both sides, yet this continues to be an open question, and it probably always will be. Since my little test didn't drop out enough (any) water to rust anything and conversely, had I used an emulsifier I wouldn't have been able to tell if it did anything either, why beat myself up wrestling with this part of the question? I will use an additive for lubricity, lubricity, lubricity and if I buy my fuel from a reputable outlet with high stock turnover then I'm probably not going to have an issue with water, no matter how my additive chemically handles it.
 

Jack Frost

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Just wish VW put a drain on the fuel tank. My tractor has one and I use it every month. There has never been a drop of water in the fuel filter in spite that the tractor is parked outside exposed to the elements and unused for the most part of the year.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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I've owned diesels since 1977, driven them about 3/4 million miles and I recall one time I found water - maybe a teaspoon.

IHMO, if one has a water problem, these emulsifiers/demulsifiers won't contain enough active ingredient (except perhaps PS 911) to do any good. And, IMHO a demulsifier will drop small amount of water out which can only cause problems (rust) if the water is not removed quickly. Has there been any documented issues using an emusifier?
 

nj1266

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Location
Long Beach, CA
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And, IMHO a demulsifier will drop small amount of water out which can only cause problems (rust) if the water is not removed quickly. Has there been any documented issues using an emusifier?
Rust in the fuel canister from a demulsifier is what concrens me the most. It would really suck if in the name of lubricity, I add rust to the fuel canister. That is the main issue that holds me back from using Opti Lube summer blend.

AFAIK, I have not read about any problem with emulsifiers in this forum. I have read about speculation about blowing your injectors with additives that use emulsifiers (don't know why). If someone cares to explain why, I am all ears or should I say eyes.

I have to make a decision soon about buying another container of DT2000 or using the opti-lube summer blend that I have....Decisions, decisioons.
 

tdiatlast

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Rust in the fuel canister from a demulsifier is what concrens me the most. It would really suck if in the name of lubricity, I add rust to the fuel canister. That is the main issue that holds me back from using Opti Lube summer blend.

AFAIK, I have not read about any problem with emulsifiers in this forum. I have read about speculation about blowing your injectors with additives that use emulsifiers (don't know why). If someone cares to explain why, I am all ears or should I say eyes.

I have to make a decision soon about buying another container of DT2000 or using the opti-lube summer blend that I have....Decisions, decisioons.
FWIW, I've logged over 45k miles using OptiLube XPD with no perceptable issues (rust in FF canister). I've seen ZERO water in either fuel filter, checking or changing both every 10k miles. On the sedan, I was concerned, as my wife tooled around for about 6 hours in a driving rainstorm with the fuel cap off...

Probably doesn't prove anything, however, except maybe that I've been lucky and haven't pumped any water-laden fuel...
 

mattymx

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There is a lot of good info in this thread. I just read the entire thing and one big important thing has pretty much been missed in all this. When ever you fuel up your diesel, you should not just go for the closest or cheapest place. You need to find a fuel station that gets a lot of diesels filling up. All day, every day. That will keep the fuel the freshest and free of water. Through those years, I have found a few stations that get tons of diesels filling up in the areas that I frequent. Never any issues. And for the record I have been using demulsifiers as well, but prefer 2 stroke premix.... No premix in the TDI.
 

nj1266

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There is a lot of good info in this thread. I just read the entire thing and one big important thing has pretty much been missed in all this. When ever you fuel up your diesel, you should not just go for the closest or cheapest place. You need to find a fuel station that gets a lot of diesels filling up. All day, every day. That will keep the fuel the freshest and free of water. Through those years, I have found a few stations that get tons of diesels filling up in the areas that I frequent. Never any issues. And for the record I have been using demulsifiers as well, but prefer 2 stroke premix.... No premix in the TDI.
I am very much with you on this one. I found a Shell truck filling station next to my house (1-2miles). According to the station owner, they refill the station's tanks 15 times EVERY DAY. Since my 3rd tank, this is the only station I filled at. I also keep and scan my reciepts onto my computer's hard drive.

It is really funny to see my little TDI surrounded by HUGE rigs. So far none of the big rig drivers have been annoyed by the presence of the TDI.
 

TornadoRed

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I am very much with you on this one. I found a Shell truck filling station next to my house (1-2miles). According to the station owner, they refill the station's tanks 15 times EVERY DAY. Since my 3rd tank, this is the only station I filled at. I also keep and scan my reciepts onto my computer's hard drive.
It's not required to fuel up at stations that get so many deliveries a day. The main thing, though, is to avoid the sleepy little neighborhood stations that only get a delivery of diesel once or twice a month.

And it's especially important, at this time of year, to make sure the fuel in your TDI's tank is fresh and properly winterized. If you buy from a station that got its last delivery in October, you are going to be screwed when temps drop to 15°F or colder.

If in doubt, ask about the fuel before you fill up. If it is not winterized, then either buy somewhere else or immediately pour in a heavy dose of anti-gel additive.
 

nj1266

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It's not required to fuel up at stations that get so many deliveries a day. The main thing, though, is to avoid the sleepy little neighborhood stations that only get a delivery of diesel once or twice a month.

And it's especially important, at this time of year, to make sure the fuel in your TDI's tank is fresh and properly winterized. If you buy from a station that got its last delivery in October, you are going to be screwed when temps drop to 15°F or colder.

If in doubt, ask about the fuel before you fill up. If it is not winterized, then either buy somewhere else or immediately pour in a heavy dose of anti-gel additive.
Believe me this is one busy diesel station. It in right next to a major freeway (710) that goes to the port of Long Beach. The port of LB is the busiest port in the West AFAIK. Everytime that I have filled their were trucks filling their gigantic tanks. Turnover is huge and the diesel should be fresh.

Here in SoCal we have little cold weather. It has been cold lately, but nothing below the 30* F. I seriously doubt that the diesel is going to gel.
 

flyboy320

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Also make sure you don't fill up just after the tanks have been filled. When the tanks are filled this causes the dirt/sediment/water to get disturbed enough that you may take some in when filling up.
 

MacBuckeye

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fuel filters installed at filling stations ??

Does anyone know where the fuel filters are located at the filling stations???? I assume they are at the pump- possibly in the filler hose itself. I'm guessing it is the responsibility of the station owner to monitor and/or change out these fuel filters. Or would it be up to the companies who deliver fuel??
Since we know that filling the storage tanks disturb what water and contaminants are in there, I can't imagine a fuel filter isn't installed somewhere between the storge tank and the pump. I'm going to bet there IS a filter of some sort in the fueling lines/system that keeps all that crap out of our cars. I'm just wondering where the filter(s) are AND how often they get changed. Can anyone verify this? I've been meaning to ask the attendant at the gas station, but I always seem to be in a hurry to get back in my car and drive more, worry less. :D
 

Jack Frost

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I don't know myself. If a fuel filter exists, it would have to be in the housing of the pump.

However, I do remember a time when all fuel pumps had a clear glass bowl on the side of the housing with little balls in them to indicate that the fuel was flowing. I don't see them anymore! If there were there, customers would see that they are getting water in their fuel. Maybe that is why they are no longer there.:rolleyes:

Even if there are filters somewhere on the pumping system to protect customers from water and other contaminants, then how do we know it is being maintained? Does the management of the pumping station have a replacement/inspection schedule and do they document the fact they carry it out and document the presence of any contaminents. Another interesting question; if there are the presense of contaminents, what do they do about it?

Another interesting question, is there any expectation from government or the fuel producers/vendors to have such safeguards in place? Or is it all complaint drive?
 

jasonTDI

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TDI
20' RAM 3500 CCLB dually HO/Aisan. 2019 Cherokee 2.0T
Also make sure you don't fill up just after the tanks have been filled. When the tanks are filled this causes the dirt/sediment/water to get disturbed enough that you may take some in when filling up.
This is pretty much a non-issue since almost all tanks are newer. The EPA mandated that a bit ago. Also all stations have filters for water/sediment. Well there could be some small station that removed them but that is not the norm. There is way to much monitoring on a state level.
 
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