Emusifier or Demulsifier

JSWTDIPilot

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2010
Location
Weschester, NY
TDI
2010 JSW TDI
Greetings,

I'm starting this very simple thread to see who uses an additive that is a emulsifer or demulsifier. I'd also like your reasoning behind it.

Please, do not comment or flame others on their postings/rational. Keep it SIMPLE. This is simply an info gathering thread.

For those who are unfamiliar with the definitions of the two;
Emulsifier: Suspends water in small droplets within the fuel
Demulsifier: Seperates water from the fuel (Link)

Format your response as follows:

Additive used: XXXXXX
Demulsifier or Emulsifier
Vehicle engine type: PD, CR, etc...
Reasoning: XXXXX

Thank you!
 

Biffster

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2010
Location
Gadsden, AL
TDI
2010 JSW TDI
Opti Lube XPD + B100
Demulsifier
2010 JSW TDI CR
Reasons: Spicer Report plus circumstantial evidence that every HPFP failure reported on these and other forums claim that no fuel additives were used on those particular vehicles. Also for small cetane bump. Anything that can help the bottom-of-the-barrel ULSD quality here in the USA.
 

naturist

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Location
Bro Jerry's hometown, Virginia
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI, 2005 Jeep Libby CRD, 2012 BMW X5 35d
demulsifier, because in talking with Bosch diesel fuel pump repair techs, they all seem to complain about having to rebuild injection pumps because of water in the fuel, which they tell me is a plague on the industry. I'd rather have to drain the water separator from time to time than replace an IP.
 

Eugene TDI Driver

Well-known member
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Location
Oregon
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2010 JSW TDI 6M
What I want to know is which approach is "better" for CR. Or if neither does any good. And where does the water go if you demulsify?
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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Location
ARIZONA
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Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
I hope your intent in not to leave out Power Service Products which are not emulsifiers or demulsifiers.;)

Power Service - Deisel Kleen +B99
Solubilizer
Engine: CR
Reason: See quote below. I will use PS 911 if I believe I have a water problem.

Our Diesel Kleen is a summer additive and it is intended to give you the very best injector cleaner, cetane, lubricity, fuel stability package and corrosion protection. It will not do much for water and it is not intended to. The injector cleaner is strong enough to clean up a dirty injectors to the spray pattern of a new injector. The Cetane Boost will help your engine start quicker, reduce emissions (even NOx) and improve engine performance. The lubricity package will bring the lubricity of the fuel up to the standard recommended by the fuel pump manufacturers. It meets the N14 Standard for corrosion and it will stabilize the fuel. The stability package helps the fuel to resist thermal breakdown which can cause the fuel to darken and form particulate materials which create gum residues in the fuel system....

When it comes to water dispersal the following will apply.

A Demulsifier, an emulsifier and a water solubilizer are all water dispersants. All diesel fuel has water in it. The water that is in diesel fuel will not hurt or harm the motor, pumps or injectors. Low Sulfur diesel fuel usually has around 50 to 65ppm (parts per million) water in the fuel. When the water content of the fuel gets around 100ppm or higher, the more likely fuel filter icing will occur.

Demulsifiers will cause excess water to fall out of the fuel. This water will fall to the bottom of the fuel tank or fuel system and can cause corrosion, rust, reduced lubricity and in the winter months it can freeze in the fuel lines and prevent fuel flow. There are about a dozen demulsifiers or de-hazers on the market. None of them will work on all fuels. You have to test the fuel your are using against the various demulsifiers to see which one will work with that fuel. They are fuel specific and when an additive company says they use demulsifiers in their additives it is for advertisement purposes only. If you talk to any Chemist that knows anything about demulsifiers they will tell you the same thing.
An emulsifier will pull water up into the fuel as small droplets and often will cause the fuel to be cloudy. In the winter months when the temperature drops below freezing, these water droplets can freeze on the filter face of the water separator causing the flow of fuel to stop, even though the fuel is still liquid. It does not take much water to cause Fuel Filter Icing problems. Both Ford and Chevy have advised against the use of emulsifiers because of possible engine damage caused by water droplets in the fuel. These water droplets also reduce the lubricity of the fuel and hurt fuel pumps and can pit, scare and destroy injector tips, according to Ford and Chevy.

Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement do not contain demulsifiers, emulsifiers or alcohols.

Our Diesel 911 is a solubilizer. It will take free water and combine it with the fuel so when you look at the fuel it is clear. Diesel 911 will combine with the fuel first and it will also keep the water in the fuel from falling out. It then will act upon the free water in the system. If the fuel is dry and is not saturated with water, it will pick up more free water than when the fuel is wet. A fuel solubilizer will not suspend water in the fuel as water droplets and it is not an emulsifier.

There is a lot of misinformation about additives and water dispersants. When you use an additive like our Diesel Fuel Supplement or Diesel Kleen these are mixtures of additives in a package. These various chemicals have to be balanced so they will not separate when you mix them together. It doesn't matter if you use our additives or one of our competitors, a good water dispersant takes a lot of room in the additive package. If you add a strong detergent, strong cetane, excellent lubricity, corrosion, top of the line antigel, and stability to the additive package there is not much room left for a water dispersant. A good multiple benefit package will always have a weak water dispersant package. It is a matter of chemistry. The only way to get a strong water dispersant is to get an additive whose top attribute is to control water like our Diesel 911. It takes a lot of water dispersant to take care of free water so it will take up a lot of room in a container.

If you think you have a water or water related problem then you need to use our Diesel 911 to take care of the water. Diesel 911 is completely compatible with Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement and they can be used together in the fuel. If you live in areas where the temperatures can be severe in the winter months then you need to use our Diesel Fuel Supplement. Use the Diesel Kleen in the non-winter months. Also, just before winter sets in I would use the Diesel 911 to help take out the water/condensation in your fuel system. You might also use it once a month in the equipment during the winter just to be sure condensation doesn't build up in the system. One-third of all fuel flow problems in winter is caused by water. Diesel 911 is the perfect product to take care of this problem. It will solubilize the water back into the fuel so the water will act as a component of the fuel. The water will be in solution and not in droplet form in your fuel. All fuel contains water. When used as directed it will prevent fuel filter icing problems, it will not hurt or harm your pump or injectors and it is the only practical way to rid the system of water in a vehicle . Again, use the Diesel 911 when you think you have a water problem .
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
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Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
PowerService said:
Demulsifiers will cause excess water to fall out of the fuel. This water will fall to the bottom of the fuel tank or fuel system and can cause corrosion, rust, reduced lubricity and in the winter months it can freeze in the fuel lines and prevent fuel flow. There are about a dozen demulsifiers or de-hazers on the market. None of them will work on all fuels. You have to test the fuel your are using against the various demulsifiers to see which one will work with that fuel. They are fuel specific and when an additive company says they use demulsifiers in their additives it is for advertisement purposes only. If you talk to any Chemist that knows anything about demulsifiers they will tell you the same thing.
AMEN!

I can tell you that running a de-emulsifier WILL CAUSE RUST TO FORM IN YOUR INJECTORS! DO NOT use them!

Your nozzles are the lowest point in the fuel system, any guesses as to where the water is going to settle?

With a De-Emulsifier you CANNOT control when or where that water is going to settle out. Sure most may get stopped in that fuel filter, but how about the droplets that form past it as inside the pump and injectors? How do you filter that out?

I can tell you that there is BIG difference between those injectors that run Power Service on a regular basis and those that do not. Simply put the PS injectors do not have rust or any trace of corrosion anywhere in side the injector or nozzle.

The key to protecting the motor is to PREVENT free water from forming, which is what a De-Emulsifier will do, create free water that can now destroy the fuel system components.
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
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Location
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2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
From what I've gleaned from E vs. D threads over the years on TDIclub is that Demulsifiers are for storage tanks and Emulsifiers are for vehicle tanks. And if you mix an emulsifier and a demulsifier together, the emulsifier wins, up to the limit of what the emulsifier can chemically absorb.

Emulsify, emulsify, emulsify....and also fuel up only at high volume / high turnover stations that do lots of diesel business to help get only the freshest fuel in your area. Truck stops and busy gas stations along major routes are best. Basically buy your fuel where everybody else does in your area. Go where the big rigs go. Avoid gas stations out in the middle of nowhere that rarely get any diesel business.
 
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dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
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Location
MA
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ex- 1996 wagon, ex-2000 Jetta
George Morrison's Rule of Thumb:

  • Demulsify in a stationary environment
  • Emulsify in a mobile environment
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
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TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
Here's the label on Howes Lubricator Diesel Treat. The pics are from the old label before ULSD. The newer ULSD-compliant version labeling has the same statement about how it takes care of water. (See the "No gelling gurantee" section.)





The wording "removes water harmlessly without alchohol" and "The proof is little or no water found in the separator." leads me to believe that Howes is an emulsifier.
 
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Biffster

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
Gadsden, AL
TDI
2010 JSW TDI
Crap! You guys suck. I really thought I had it made with XPD, but it's a demulsifier. I'm really beginning to disklike you people.
 

dadsdiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
North Central Penna
TDI
'99 NB TDI
I've also used nothing but Stanadyne for 6 years now with great results in 3 vehicles and a tractor.

Then...I get to reading these posts over and over again and start to second guess myself......
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
I choose to use (additive used) Stanadyne Lubricity Formula which is a demulsifier for a couple of reasons.
(engines) 2-09 CBEA
(Why)
1) Caterpillar and Deere engines are equiped with water separators for a reason. They want the water not to run thru the fuel system.
Water is bad for injection systems.
2) I would think most fuel terminals use a demulsifier to drop the water out of suspension in their storage tanks so it doesn't cause probems somewhere else.
So'why fight what is already in the fuel.
Just my reasoning,which means its worth nothing.
dweisel
 
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T_D_I_POWER

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Location
Savannah. GA. USA - Toronto. ON. CANADA
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'04 VW PASSAT GLS TDI '06 Audi A4 q Avant 6-Spd Sport Pkg
:) :) :)

Stanadyne is approved and endorsed by the followings

Stanadyne said:
Marketing Bulletin # MB 2046, June 2000
Vehicle and Engine Manufacturer Approvals
for
Stanadyne Diesel Fuel Additives
1. Stanadyne Diesel Fuel Additives have been tested and approved by several engine
and vehicle/equipment OEMs since 1993. The most recent is Ford’s recommendation
for Performance Formula for use in the 1999 Powerstroke Diesel (Ford “Oasis”
message 12370).
2. This Bulletin lists some of these major manufacturers, and the specific Stanadyne
Additive that they have approved, together with the Service/Technical bulletin that
references the approval.
OEM Approval Reference Stanadyne Additive

Ford 94-5-11;
Performance Formula
‘M’ letter 98-M-10;


Performance Formula Jnr.
“Oasis” Special Service Msg. 12370.


Performance Formula
GM 376302


Performance Formula
Navistar 011223300, Dec. 1993.


Performance Formula
Deere 93-4-45-6; DTAC # K1034;


Performance Formula
Service letter 275
Caterpillar “Component Code 1250”, Feb. 1994. Performance Formula
VW Service bulletin recommendation.
VW p/n ZVW 340 001 is SAC 32938 Lubricity Formula
AM General “Adventures” Magazine. Fall ‘97.


Performance Formula
Volvo Penta Canadian Dealer letter.


Performance Formula
3. Stanadyne is the ONLY independent diesel fuel additive brand that is:


Approved by engine and vehicle original equipment manufacturers.


The brand recommended most by Fuel Injection Service Dealers.


Shown by independent testing (Southwest Research) to perform best in the
three most important performance criteria of:
!


cold weather protection to stop gelling and filter plugging.
!


increased lubricity to protect parts & reduce wear.
!


cetane improvement for easier starting, less smoke, & more power.
For more information, contact your local Stanadyne Dealer (look for diesel fuel injection
repair shops), or contact Stanadyne on 1 800 842 2496.


[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
Marketing Bulletin #MB 2059, May 2003
GM Approval of Stanadyne Performance Formula​
[/FONT]​
[/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]®

[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
“Information on Diesel Fuel Additives”, GM Bulletin # 03-06-04-017; March 13, 2003​
[/FONT]
General Motors has recently issued the above bulletin concerning the use of diesel fuel additives.
In this bulletin, GM recommends both Stanadyne and Racor diesel fuel additives for use in GM
diesel engines to help address the problems associated with water in fuel. The bulletin refers to
two different “technologies” to help remove water: Demulsification (a proven technology used by
Stanadyne and Racor); and Emulsification (adopted by many other brands, often using alcohol).
Both Stanadyne and Racor additives deal with water in fuel by demulsifying, or coalescing it
(making the water form larger droplets), which enable a Fuel Filter/Water Separator to more
effectively remove the water properly. GM is adamant that water should not reach the pump or
injectors in their diesel engines, especially the Duramax engine. Water can cause serious damage
to any diesel fuel system, including rust, excessive wear, microbial contamination etc.
However, IT SHOULD NOT BE INFERRED THAT THE STANADYNE AND RACOR
ADDITIVES ARE THE SAME OR EQUAL - THEY ARE NOT!
Information on the features and benefits of Stanadyne Performance Formula​
® and Racor
Conditioner Plus can be obtained from literature or various web sites.

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
Stanadyne Performance Formula[/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]®
[/FONT][/FONT]is a multi function, all season product. It is engineered and
designed to deal with any fuel related problems including * Cold weather waxing & pour point *
Cetane * Lubricity * Water (demulsifier & anti-freeze) * Cleaner * Corrosion Inhibitor * Anti-
Oxidant.

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
Racor Conditioner Plus+​
[/FONT]states that it addresses fuel related problems such as, *Cetane *
Lubricity * Water (demulsifier) * Cleaner * Stabilizer * It does not address cold weather problems
or corrosion/oxidization.
For cold weather operation Racor suggests adding Racor Winter Plus+. A Racor user will have to
add and mix both Racor products in order to get benefits approaching Stanadyne Performance
Formula. Even then, the improvement to performance may not be the same, as the Racor product
has less active cetane improver than Stanadyne Performance Formula.

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
Summary:​
[/FONT]
Clearly, the most comprehensive, multi-function diesel fuel additive available is Stanadyne
Performance Formula. It is the only additive that addresses virtually any diesel fuel-related
problem with one product, and is the only one that is:​
Made by a fuel injection equipment manufacturer.

Approved by several OEMs.

Proven to perform best in independent testing.
For more information, or to request literature, please call Stanadyne Power Products Division,

1 800 842 2496, or visit our website at www.stanadyne.com




 
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Rather Be Biking

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Location
Upstate, NY
TDI
09 JSW Manual
Standyne Demulsifier. The 09s have a water separator (filter) and many have a drain. The water will be removed at the pump before the injectors. Drain every few months with a cheap pump (like a Harbor Freight brake bleeder). The water evidence that people find in the form of rust further in system, was apparently emulsified into the fuel enough to get past the separator and then drop out after being pressurized at the point where you really don't want it to be.
 
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dweisel

Top Post Dawg
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Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Just a couple of questions for the emulsifier crowd.
1) If you fuel up and get a small slug of water, does an emulsifier try to emulsify that free water and send it through the fuel system?
2) Does emulsified water lower the lubricity of fuel?

dweisel
 
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T_D_I_POWER

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Location
Savannah. GA. USA - Toronto. ON. CANADA
TDI
'04 VW PASSAT GLS TDI '06 Audi A4 q Avant 6-Spd Sport Pkg
blah blah blah, that's a very nice list... where is the CR recommendation again? Did I miss it?
Whrere's the list of OE approval and endorsement for the DFA you're using?

Yes you did :D


Stanadyne said:
Diesel Fuel Additives
The heart of the diesel engine is its fuel injection equipment and the major enemy of this equipment is poor quality diesel fuel. From our extensive research and testing and our experience in manufacturing diesel fuel injection systems, Stanadyne found that variations in diesel fuel quality around the world can adversely affect today's precision fuel injection systems. Poor quality diesel fuel can cause performance issues, premature wear, gumming of components, and plugged filters. To resolve these issues and to provide protection of the fuel injection system, Stanadyne developed its own line of diesel fuel additives.
Stanadyne diesel fuel additives are the only ones in the world that are:

  • Made by a fuel injection systems manufacturer
  • Tested and approved by major diesel engine and vehicle manufacturers
  • Proven to perform best in independent tests
Stanadyne diesel fuel additives protect and improve the performance of all diesel fuel injection systems including:

  • High pressure common rail
  • Unit injectors
  • Rotary distribution pumps
  • In-line pumps
Stanadyne diesel fuel additives comply with federal low sulfur content requirements for use in diesel motor vehicles and nonroad engines.
 

wensteph

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Location
Savannah
TDI
2011 Touareg sold to VW 2014 Audi Q5 re-programmed
Not TDIs, but I was reading through the two sticky threads over at Diesel Place on the Spicer test and the consensus over there was to use a demulsifier. It's an easier decision to make when the manufacturers come out and say not to use an emulsifier.

Still waiting for my choice to be for sale, but do VWs have a drainable separator/filter canister?
 

tiguando

Veteran Member
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Sep 9, 2007
Location
Illinois, USA
TDI
Tiguan (Hopefully)
My head hurts. Is there a recommendation of one over the other for CR diesels like my 2010 Golf TDI as opposed to older PD diesels and such? I don't think mine has a water separator access for draining. Would it be advisable to have it drained along with each oil change (which is coming up) and have the fuel filter inspected for metal particles as well? I'm worried about the HPFP issues reported here and I'm wondering how this applies.
 

T_D_I_POWER

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Location
Savannah. GA. USA - Toronto. ON. CANADA
TDI
'04 VW PASSAT GLS TDI '06 Audi A4 q Avant 6-Spd Sport Pkg
According to Stanadyne their DFA is good for all, CR or non-CR, see post#21.

You could do the FF inspection during OC, it wouldn't hurt. That would be half way mark before FF change.
 

dieselfuel

Veteran Member
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Dec 28, 2008
Location
ohio
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI
FWIW,

I have 130,000 miles on my 2003 ALH and I've never found water in the filter. Each time I change the fuel filter, I drain the fuel into a clear jar and I've never seen any water in the fuel. I usually let the jar sit over night and take another look. Never found any water.

I add 1/2 gnl B100 per tank and recently, I've also add an additional 12 oz of TC-W3.

Once in awhile, I'll add PS (Gray, or White bottle in winter months).

IMO, I've never had a fuel quality related issue.
 
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TornadoRed

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Location
Saint Paul (ex-San Diego)
TDI
2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red; 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver
George Morrison's Rule of Thumb:

  • Demulsify in a stationary environment
  • Emulsify in a mobile environment
+1

Since I have no storage tanks, when I pour in an additive to regular ULSD it is always an additive with emulsifying properties. In part this is because my fuel filtration system has no drain for water. But even if it did, those do not work very well in a mobile environment.
 

TornadoRed

Top Post Dawg
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Location
Saint Paul (ex-San Diego)
TDI
2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red; 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver
Not TDIs, but I was reading through the two sticky threads over at Diesel Place on the Spicer test and the consensus over there was to use a demulsifier. It's an easier decision to make when the manufacturers come out and say not to use an emulsifier.

Still waiting for my choice to be for sale, but do VWs have a drainable separator/filter canister?
I do not believe there is a consensus, but even if there was I don't think the water separators in our TDI fuel systems work very well. So whether I am one of many or totally alone in my views, I encourage the use of emulsifying additives.
 

nj1266

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Location
Long Beach, CA
TDI
Golf
I am using Schaeffer's Diesel Treat 2000. The reasons:

1. It is an emulsifier. Some have argued that the emulsifier is bad and will blow your injectors and some have argued it is good since it will force the water from the entire fuel system. I do not have a drain on my 2010 Golf TDI, so that was an issue.

2. The DT2000 lubricity was independently verified by the spicer study and the numbers were very close to what Schaeffer posted on their website. I did not find any other additive where the lubricity numbers from the manufacturer nicely overlapped with the numbers from the Spicer study.

3. DT2000 is highly concentrated and is therefore very cost efficient to run. I only add 50 ml per 14.5 gallons of D2. The next most cost efficient additive is the Opti-Lube summer blend. I have a container of it, but I do not know if I am going to use it since it is a de-mulsifier.

I checked my fuel filter cansiter when I did my 5k first oil change and I found it clean as a whistle. That made me feel good about my HPFP.
 

pawel

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Location
Naugatuck, CT
TDI
'09 TDI 6 MT, Platinum Gray Metallic, Anthracite Interior
I checked my fuel filter cansiter when I did my 5k first oil change and I found it clean as a whistle. That made me feel good about my HPFP.
Why? Why do you go against VW engineers' recommendation to change oil every 10k miles and change it at 5k miles? Do you know something that they don't?
 
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