Empty clear fuel line and no starting

[tperretta]

The car has been a bit sputtery at times over the past few weeks. Acts like it's dying out... and sometimes it will die when at a light idling. It got progressively worse over the 3 weeks and sometimes it would cut all power as if the motor was completely off (still in gear but acts and sounds the same as if you run out of fuel). A few times I had to restart it when It did that and other times it would jerk the car as it fired back up all of a sudden.

Now, no start and the clear fuel line is empty. I just replaced the fuel filter in attempt to fix this issue. I filled it with diesel and cranked the car many times with zero luck (cranked a LONG time for some of those attempts). Still empty fuel line.

I just ordered a new Tee fitting and o-rings to try next but i feel like that wouldn't leave the line empty after at least 5 minutes of cranking the engine. The next thing i'm going to try is the fuel sender unit. Is that a logical next step?

I have no leaks on my IP. Nothing visible anyways. Is there anything else i should check while im trying to narrow down the cause of this?

Thanks,
Anthony

 

[CopaMundial]

(best Yoda voice)
"Ahh... Whitedog you seek."

Use this thread to get the car started:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1972395&postcount=10

Once you have the car running, you can see if the new Thermostatic T and O-rings have resolved your initial problem.
If not, then the seals on injector pump are likely the issue.
The leak there would not be one where fuel would leak out, but rather where air would leak in. So it's not visible by looking at the pump, you just get there by looking at the symptoms.

 

[tperretta]

Yeah, i read the whitedog thread. Do you know how much it would cost to have the IP rebuilt if that is the problem?

 

[tperretta]

I was also considering buying a mitivac. I think that's one way i can test the IP seals from what i remember when i read the whitedog thread.

 

[tperretta]

(best Yoda voice)
"Ahh... Whitedog you seek."

Use this thread to get the car started:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1972395&postcount=10

Once you have the car running, you can see if the new Thermostatic T and O-rings have resolved your initial problem.
If not, then the seals on injector pump are likely the issue.
The leak there would not be one where fuel would leak out, but rather where air would leak in. So it's not visible by looking at the pump, you just get there by looking at the symptoms.

It's looking to me like its on the pump side of the equation. I checked all my lines and fuel sending unit and there are no blockages or visible leaks. It has a new filter and thermo t/o rings also. No matter how long I crank this thing, it will not prime. Would leaky pump seals cause problems this severe?

 

[CopaMundial]

Did you get a mityvac or similar?
Can't really isolate the issue without it.

 

[fruitcakesa]

It's looking to me like its on the pump side of the equation. I checked all my lines and fuel sending unit and there are no blockages or visible leaks. It has a new filter and thermo t/o rings also. No matter how long I crank this thing, it will not prime. Would leaky pump seals cause problems this severe?

Yes it would

 

[jasonTDI]

Antony the pump is finished. This is classic fuel pump failure.

And those of you that say how could I know? I just worked on the car a few months ago and have several times in the past. The pump has a lot of miles on it.

 

[tperretta]

Antony the pump is finished. This is classic fuel pump failure.

And those of you that say how could I know? I just worked on the car a few months ago and have several times in the past. The pump has a lot of miles on it.

I guess I will start trying to locate a good used unit or rebuild mine. Or should I just replace the seals with the diesel geek kit? I did notice the car developed a whine over the past 3k miles. I suspect that may be from the worn parts inside the pump, not related to a simple leak. ?

 

[tperretta]

Such a bummer too... I just went through and cleaned it up really well and also put an fmic on it to replace the bad stock IC.

 

[tperretta]

Did you get a mityvac or similar?
Can't really isolate the issue without it.

I used the mouth vac technique. :-/ I can still taste diesel....

 

[oldpoopie]

You cant create enough suction to test it with your mouth. Also, these pumps will NOT self prime from cranking. Once it air locks, you have to prime the pump and filter with a mitivac or similar, then crack injector lines and bleed out remaining air.

 

[CopaMundial]

I think I'm going to make this quote my new signature.

You cant create enough suction to test it with your mouth.

 

[tperretta]

You cant create enough suction to test it with your mouth. Also, these pumps will NOT self prime from cranking. Once it air locks, you have to prime the pump and filter with a mitivac or similar, then crack injector lines and bleed out remaining air.

I've done this about 5 or 6 times in the 9 years I've owned the car. No mityvac. Just filled the filter and crank it over til it starts. Always worked no prob. And the real problem isn't that I lost the prime during a filter change... The problem is that I never touched it and it lost prime and will not start. Using a mityvac to prime it would make no difference because something else is wrong.

 

[Maffken]

I've done this about 5 or 6 times in the 9 years I've owned the car. No mityvac. Just filled the filter and crank it over til it starts. Always worked no prob. And the real problem isn't that I lost the prime during a filter change... The problem is that I never touched it and it lost prime and will not start. Using a mityvac to prime it would make no difference because something else is wrong.

I heard of someone sticking a check valve on the feed for the fuel line since there pump was sightly leaky or something along that line and it kept the fuel from draining out. As long as it's fuel rated I doubt you'd see any harmful effects and it should be pretty cheap thing to test.

This is assuming you can pull fuel from the tank and the sender isn't bad. I used a vac extractor to pull fuel though my filter (since even filling it it had too much force to move) and filled my lines with a little bottle after running injector cleaner though. It started right up.

BTW you should never use diesel to prime or fill the pump/lines with, since it's not filtered (And most pump filters are ) and the additives usually start easier.

If those lines are empty, you'll have a hard time starting if you ever do.

Sounds like a bad pump if its going out when it's idling. Good luck getting it fixed.

 

[oldpoopie]

I've done this about 5 or 6 times in the 9 years I've owned the car. No mityvac. Just filled the filter and crank it over til it starts. Always worked no prob. And the real problem isn't that I lost the prime during a filter change... The problem is that I never touched it and it lost prime and will not start. Using a mityvac to prime it would make no difference because something else is wrong.

This would explain why your pump is wasted, if it is. The pump needs fuel to be lubricated. Yes, if you crank the crap out of it it will *eventually* work. But you are beating the crap out of it. I used to see the techs at the dealer do that too. Just laziness in my opinion.

 

[tperretta]

This would explain why your pump is wasted, if it is. The pump needs fuel to be lubricated. Yes, if you crank the crap out of it it will *eventually* work. But you are beating the crap out of it. I used to see the techs at the dealer do that too. Just laziness in my opinion.

Well, I did prime it by sucking diesel into the lines w my mouth. Just no mityvac

 

[tperretta]

I ran out of fuel twice 3 years ago and that was the last time I actually started it with totally empty lines. Can't really be too picky for a mityvac in the middle of Nebraska in the middle of the night. My fuel gauge wasn't working properly, but anyways, I really never noticed any problems then or the few times before. I really think the dead pump is due to 320k miles rather than the 2 minutes it took to prime it when cranking. Obviously priming is ideal but its been 3 years since the last time it had a dry start. This pump had a good life, it's just old.

 

[jasonTDI]

Pouring a little bit of unfiltered diesel in the filter isn't going to hurt anything. It's relatively clean. Not like it's the brown fuel soaked with a rag up from the ground in a Mad Max movie and collected in a broken headlight and a hubcap. Heck the stock filter is lucky if it's 10-15 micron.

I've done hundreds of filter changes and never had an issue if the lines aren't full. Just make sure the filter is.

 

[Joeviocoe]

I am having a similar problem. Was there a solution to the OP??

NO START
Was idling rough while slowing down to a stop.
A little rough when starting up lately.
White smoke puff out the exhaust about 1 second after startup.

I have been using B99 off and on for years. Currently on Diesel#2.
Been running Bosio PP520s for several years.
Been running a 17/22 turbo for about a year.
Just got Rocketchip 4 installed with 3bar MAP.
Fuel economy seems crap lately. (haven't run through a full tank yet, but looking to be less than 35mpg)

Now, no start.
Good crank.
Can hear fuel shutoff solenoid when key turned.
Clear fuel tube looks empty.
Replaced Fuel Filter. No luck.
Have Aluminum bypass Tee on the filter
Have clear prefilter too. Replaced, and 2/3rd full, looks good.
Mityvac primed the filter.
Tried pouring some fuel down the clear tube. When cranking, it emptied, but didn't start.

 

[Joeviocoe]

I do NOT have the proper 17mm wrench to crack open the injectors.
But I was able to crack Injector #3 with a Lock Wrench... no luck. Did NOT see any fuel squirt out during cranking.

I used a MityVac to prime the pump by first attaching it to the pump return line (metal elbow tube after banjo bolt).
Mityvac tube and catch can only got a little bit of fuel, mostly air.
Clear fuel intake tube DID NOT fill with fuel.
Vacuum did NOT HOLD.

I also tried putting the MityVac on the return line just before the Filter Tee. Same problem....

But I am noticing a very faint "gurgling sound" coming from the top of the Injector Pump, when I am using the Mityvac to pull from the return line. Same noise whether I have the Mityvac connected to the banjo bolt, or further down by the filter return line.

I think my IP is leaking.
Need a pump seal rebuild kit (with Viton), and maybe a guru to help. In the San Francisco/Daly City area.... ASAP. Please.

 

[tperretta]

Sounds like a problem similar to mine. My gas mileage slowly went to crap over the past year also. Another thing- it developed a bad whining noise over the past few months.

I do NOT have the proper 17mm wrench to crack open the injectors.
But I was able to crack Injector #3 with a Lock Wrench... no luck. Did NOT see any fuel squirt out during cranking.

I used a MityVac to prime the pump by first attaching it to the pump return line (metal elbow tube after banjo bolt).
Mityvac tube and catch can only got a little bit of fuel, mostly air.
Clear fuel intake tube DID NOT fill with fuel.
Vacuum did NOT HOLD.

I also tried putting the MityVac on the return line just before the Filter Tee. Same problem....

But I am noticing a very faint "gurgling sound" coming from the top of the Injector Pump, when I am using the Mityvac to pull from the return line. Same noise whether I have the Mityvac connected to the banjo bolt, or further down by the filter return line.

I think my IP is leaking.
Need a pump seal rebuild kit (with Viton), and maybe a guru to help. In the San Francisco/Daly City area.... ASAP. Please.

 

[tperretta]

I ordered a rebuilt 11mm. It's not here yet but I imagine my problem will be gone once that baby is installed.

I do NOT have the proper 17mm wrench to crack open the injectors.
But I was able to crack Injector #3 with a Lock Wrench... no luck. Did NOT see any fuel squirt out during cranking.

I used a MityVac to prime the pump by first attaching it to the pump return line (metal elbow tube after banjo bolt).
Mityvac tube and catch can only got a little bit of fuel, mostly air.
Clear fuel intake tube DID NOT fill with fuel.
Vacuum did NOT HOLD.

I also tried putting the MityVac on the return line just before the Filter Tee. Same problem....

But I am noticing a very faint "gurgling sound" coming from the top of the Injector Pump, when I am using the Mityvac to pull from the return line. Same noise whether I have the Mityvac connected to the banjo bolt, or further down by the filter return line.

I think my IP is leaking.
Need a pump seal rebuild kit (with Viton), and maybe a guru to help. In the San Francisco/Daly City area.... ASAP. Please.

 

[Joeviocoe]

I ordered a rebuilt 11mm. It's not here yet but I imagine my problem will be gone once that baby is installed.

Where did you order your 11mm pump from? And what price ballpark should I expect?

I did get a couple of brief squeals, (1/2 sec) while driving.

I still want to try replacing the seals first.

 

[tperretta]

I ordered mine from user "Frans". His was the most reasonably priced. I've seen the typical range from 800-1300. Considering that mine developed a whine that sounded like parts were wearing, I figured I just wanted to replace the whole thing and not have to worry about it again. Maybe all u will need are seals though.

Find Frans and send him a message about his rebuilt units.

Where did you order your 11mm pump from? And what price ballpark should I expect?
I did get a couple of brief squeals, (1/2 sec) while driving.
I still want to try replacing the seals first.

 

[tperretta]

Where did you order your 11mm pump from? And what price ballpark should I expect?
I did get a couple of brief squeals, (1/2 sec) while driving.
I still want to try replacing the seals first.

Oh and the whine mine was making was entirely dependent on engine speed. It wasn't a couple squeals. It was always there and the sound corresponded to the RPM's.

 

[Joeviocoe]

I am thinking I just need new seals.

The very faint gurgling sound (can only hear with ear 6 inches away) coming from the IP.... when I try to Mityvac from the return line... and it won't hold a vacuum.

Been running B99 off and on for years... and a couple months ago, left it sitting parked in Florida sun for 2 months straight.

Seals don't like that, do they?

 

[oldpoopie]

I am thinking I just need new seals.

The very faint gurgling sound (can only hear with ear 6 inches away) coming from the IP.... when I try to Mityvac from the return line... and it won't hold a vacuum.

Been running B99 off and on for years... and a couple months ago, left it sitting parked in Florida sun for 2 months straight.

Seals don't like that, do they?

You just need a reseal. There is a good how to thread on here by Runonbeer

 

[Joeviocoe]

You just need a reseal. There is a good how to thread on here by Runonbeer

Thanks... found his thread.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=287336

Ordered a seal kit with the viton head seal

 

[Joeviocoe]

I will need to get some tools too.

A 17mm flare wrench.
A good Torx set.
Both of which I can bike down to Home Depot for I suppose.

But the specialty stuff?
Triangle bit socket.
Something to crank/turn the engine to compress the pump.