EMP as related to the VNT 17/22

jackbombay

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PP, nice threadjack to do nothing other then slam KERMA, nothing you've posted has anyhing to do with VNT 17/22 and the excessive EMPs they are responsible for, care to address that?
While the measurements you've posted aren't what I expected and I am surprised by them, they also have no place in this thread.
 

KROUT

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The way I see it it became relavent to this thread when quadcom recomended it over the 17/22.
 

dabear95

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The only thing that scares me in this thread is the 2% return rate for street toys turbos. Good thing the electric company does not have a 2% downtime rate per day:

24 * 60 = 1,440

2% = 28.8 minutes per day

201.6 minutes per week (over 3 hours)

You get the idea...


Are you sure you did not mean .2%?

Jason
 

Rub87

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The vnt17 turbine just is to small to support over 180hp reliable..

Slapping a big compressor on it will not solve this issue..
 

Scott_DeWitt

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dabear95 said:
The only thing that scares me in this thread is the 2% return rate for street toys turbos. Good thing the electric company does not have a 2% downtime rate per day:

24 * 60 = 1,440

2% = 28.8 minutes per day

201.6 minutes per week (over 3 hours)

You get the idea...


Are you sure you did not mean .2%?

Jason
I was doing the math as well. 2 percent = 2 out of 100. There have been at least 4 failures mentioned on these forums, so that would mean shipping at least 200 turbos.

Rub87 said:
The vnt17 turbine just is to small to support over 180hp reliable..

Slapping a big compressor on it will not solve this issue..
But I'd tend to agree with you, A larger compressor does nothing to keep EGT's and EMP within check. For the 200+ club you need a turbine larger than a 17.
 
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Passenger Performance

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jackbombay said:
PP, nice threadjack to do nothing other then slam KERMA, nothing you've posted has anyhing to do with VNT 17/22 and the excessive EMPs they are responsible for, care to address that?
While the measurements you've posted aren't what I expected and I am surprised by them, they also have no place in this thread.
Like Krout said I thought it was relevant enough when the turbo was mentioned.
My Pm count is now up to 5 blown turbos, so they must have sold over 400 turbos correct?

Your right Scott DeWitt, you definitely need a bigger turbine than the 17 for over 200WHP, and likely different intake and exhaust manifolds.
 

Mark@MaloneTuning

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Rub87 said:
The vnt17 turbine just is to small to support over 180hp reliable..

Slapping a big compressor on it will not solve this issue..
Scott_DeWitt said:
But I'd tend to agree with you, A larger compressor does nothing to keep EGT's and EMP within check. For the 200+ club you need a turbine larger than a 17.
It's possible to make a tune that displays 200whp on a dyno with a VNT-17 because many dyno pulls only last several seconds. However that would be false advertising as it doesn't work so well in real-world applications.
 
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mrchill

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OUt of curiosity, did anyone ever advertise or allege that the hybrid, the 17 or the 1852 would support 180hp or over 200? Perhaps someone did , I just didnt see it. I suspect that the hybrid theory (sorry Linkin' Park) is misconstrued. It was used as early as 5 years ago on this forum. Most if not all liked it, but it wasnt price competitive. It was a good street, to moderate race turbo(I know I'm going to pay for that), but cost too much to build. Now, the price is quite favorable. As is the 17, which also was crazy expensive even for used.

There are many high output turbo options. We all know what they are.
These are the ones advertised as high output, but likely have some lesser street charactaristics. As far as this thread is concerned, I have to agree with Jack. This isnt about Kermas turbos (unless he also offers the same hybrid, which he might), bu Quadcomm should be careful of what he types, as this is indeed how the thread derailed.

Any turbo used outside its effective range, or overfueled will cause high EGT's and likely high EMP's (though I have not measured EMP). If you want to make max power, talk to the people responsible for tuning. They usually have solid opinions on what turbos to use for a given output with some safety built in. Although, with double the factory output and higher, safety is a hollow word.
 

Street Toys

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jsrmonster said:
I could name a dozen folks who blew-up new (ummm aftermarket reman) turbos and got replacements shipped back. Why would they come here and complain, it would be like biteing the hand that feeds them. 2% return rate, I wouldn't even go there. Keep up the good customer service and all will be happy, regardless. It is always blamed on the careless installer, or the tune, so that's that!
Well I can name names! Tell the good people of this forum what happened to Andy Kive's Turbo? You remember that one don't you? let me refresh your memory! That was one of your so called "hybrid 17/22's.

With all your wisdom you put that turbo together that had a slender shaft but you used a strait shaft bearing! Come on man could'nt you tell the diference? Just until last july you actualy thought that all VMNT 20's came with a strait shaft and did'nt even know that 15's also have models with strait shafts available for them!:(

Returns: How many "Rocketchip" gettogethers have you ever had that anyone blew up thier turbo after you chiped it? Should I refphrase that question to:"How many RC get togthers have you had that NOONE blew thier turbo? What happened with Brian Weber's car 2 minutes after you chiped it? How about Jason TDI"S car? How about Scott R's car? Lets not forget about Lenord"s either!

You even though that they only made one model VNT 20 until I enlightened you last July!

You even think that the compressor clearance to the housing should be 0.004?

Thanks for the clarification, my eyes are getting bad :)

I would bet dinner the diametral clearance on the left is .010" while the one on the right is .004"

Jeff

Then your buddy Dave says that YOU should machine the clearance to 0.020:eek: I even heard of some hacks that use a brake cylinder hone to expand that clearance! Care to exlain that one! Who do you know who does this?

Last but not least: For every turbo that you claim that has failed from me I have 3 ECU's that you programed that you customers were not satisfied with and could not get resolved from you because you would not answer your phone!

How do I collect on that wager? Keep up the good work, customer service! And thats that;)
 

VeeDubTDI

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Street Toys, you're a complete dick. This is certainly not the way to promote your (KERMA's) enterprise. :rolleyes: Maybe you should practice having a little bit more tact and restraint when you post on the internet, especially when your business depends on peoples' impressions of you.
 

Street Toys

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VeeDubTDI said:
Street Toys, you're a complete dick. This is certainly not the way to promote your (KERMA's) enterprise. :rolleyes: Maybe you should practice having a little bit more tact and restraint when you post on the internet, especially when your business depends on peoples' impressions of you.
Are we even reading the same thread? Start with post # 10 then read posts 12, 13, 16, 19, 27, 29, 35, and 36:( I've restrained myself for over 3 months now reading all this slander, then you have the nerve to call me a dick?
 

VeeDubTDI

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Yup. You're damned right. You can call people on their bull**** without being a complete douche on the internet. People are posting valid concerns, and you are getting defensive and jumping down their throats. Jeff even tossed you a compliment regarding your customer service, to which you responded with the utmost hostility.

There are ways to get your point across without ruining your own credibility. :rolleyes:
 

chapelhill

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Life is not fair!

If you are a Vendor on this forum then you have a position of responsibility and therefore my best advice is to minimize criticism of others. There will always be plenty of other people laying criticism of you, but you have to take most of it on the chin. If an issue arises you have to wait for all of the criticism and then make a single and final response. There will always be further criticism of your response but you have to leave it.

From what I see we are not talking about rubbish Vendors here,but good ones trying to push the limits in a field where there will be failures and mistakes. The simple fact of the vendors regularly contributing on the forum speaks volumes.

I like the competitiveness between the Vendors, and the progress that has been made has been good, long may it continue!
 

Street Toys

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chapelhill said:
Life is not fair!

If you are a Vendor on this forum then you have a position of responsibility and therefore my best advice is to minimize criticism of others. There will always be plenty of other people laying criticism of you, but you have to take most of it on the chin. If an issue arises you have to wait for all of the criticism and then make a single and final response. There will always be further criticism of your response but you have to leave it.

From what I see we are not talking about rubbish Vendors here,but good ones trying to push the limits in a field where there will be failures and mistakes. The simple fact of the vendors regularly contributing on the forum speaks volumes.



I like the competitiveness between the Vendors, and the progress that has been made has been good, long may it continue!
Thank you Chapelhill, your advise is well taken
 

mrchill

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Lighten up dude. No one named names until you did. Any particular reason? You know, there are a few of us that know a LOT about failures and why they happened that have not called anyone out. Bear this in mind next time you feel accosted. Try to excercise restraint. It may not be easy, but it is professional....and adult.
 

hgeittmann

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It seems to me like Kerma has been getting bashed up pretty good in this thread with a lot of unsubstantiated claims. I don't blame ST for throwing a little heat. I've seen Jeff do the same in the past, so big deal. Let's move on. Truth be told, neither vendor looks good to me right now.
 

Slave2school

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99.5 used to at least...
On the matter of the compressor damage, not that it matters ahhaha. I have had several packages since 9/11 come form the south arrive somewhat damaged/rifled through/scratched, you name it. Bulbs stolen from headlamps etc. :(
 

Street Toys

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Just so everyone here knows; I am not KERMA or even an affiliate. Charlie even asked me not to post my proir statment. I build thier turbos, and many products for them. I am the only full service custom machine shop in Tooele county. During August and September you'll notice that it may get hard for some of you to get product, that is also because I am the only machine shop between the salt flats and Salt Lake City.
For what its worth, my comments came from me..Street Toys, not KERMA!
 

jackbombay

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mrchill said:
As far as this thread is concerned, I have to agree with Jack.
Twice in one week?!?!?!?!! Satan must be wearing long johns right now :D

mrchill said:
This isnt about Kermas turbos (unless he also offers the same hybrid, which he might), bu Quadcomm should be careful of what he types, as this is indeed how the thread derailed.
While it was Quad that brought up different turbo options I feel that is an entirely different subject than the quality of the one turbo that PP measured, how is that relevant to the EMP produced by various turbos? Or should I phrase that "The excessive EMP created by the VNT 17/22?" to stay completely on topic?

As long as you have a VNT 17 turbine you'll have high EMP. [/thread]
 

nicklockard

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Entertaining, yes, but I want education

Okay, I've been entertained as all get out, but what factors actually effect Exhaust Manifold Pressure (EMP) for the layman?

I'm not playing dumb, I really don't get it yet. So...okay, I can see how misfueling or bad mapping can generate high EMP's, but what aspects of turbo sizing, mass, blade shape, port shape/matching etcetera actually matter here?

Please, I want to learn.
 

crazyrunner33

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nicklockard said:
Please, I want to learn.
Ditto.

Imagine how good my grades would be if I studied as hard I did in school as I did here on the TDI club:rolleyes:.
 

david_594

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Street Toys said:
Just so everyone here knows; I am not KERMA or even an affiliate.
Street Toys said:
I build thier turbos, and many products for them.
You're their supplier! You benefit financially directly from Kerma's turbo sales. That sounds pretty affiliated to me.
 

buckweat diesel

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anyone that buys a turbo from kerma i will install it for half the price of anyone!and back it 110% if u run his tune!

this is a big forum with lots of tuners and techs,and do it yourselfers
lets build the cars and have fun doin it

iv been calm through this whole thing of im better than you crap
whats the point!

passenger dont bash street toys work because his turbos are the sh#t and not one has blown on my shops yet.\:mad: you need some help? if you dont know how just ask(see i can bee a di#k but y:confused: )

maybe i need to have a tdi class at the shop on how to work on your tdi 101 ill show anyone how. im going to have a tdi workshop on how to in january 08 you all are welcome;)
 

buckweat diesel

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nicklockard said:
Okay, I've been entertained as all get out, but what factors actually effect Exhaust Manifold Pressure (EMP) for the layman?

I'm not playing dumb, I really don't get it yet. So...okay, I can see how misfueling or bad mapping can generate high EMP's, but what aspects of turbo sizing, mass, blade shape, port shape/matching etcetera actually matter here?

Please, I want to learn.
come to my class in january and ill tell u;)
 

validius

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VeeDubTDI said:
Street Toys, you're a complete dick. This is certainly not the way to promote your (KERMA's) enterprise. :rolleyes: Maybe you should practice having a little bit more tact and restraint when you post on the internet, especially when your business depends on peoples' impressions of you.
Thread rescue!
 

Passenger Performance

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buckweat diesel said:
iv been calm through this whole thing of im better than you crap
whats the point!

passenger dont bash street toys work because his turbos are the sh#t and not one has blown on my shops yet.\:mad: you need some help? if you dont know how just ask(see i can bee a di#k but y:confused: )
This isn't a I'm better than you thing. Its a, "why the hell was this machined this way?" thing. If you guys don't like how I think turbo shafts and wheels should sit concentric in their housings thats fine.
Why do you guys keep thinking I have problems installing these things? I don't, if I did I probably would have never measured anything or have said anything either.
 

Sootman

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I need some more basics on the EMP/EGT thing. Anyone have a link that will give an overview of this subject?
Man, them orange turbos sure are purdy! You should see my yellow block!
[/IMG]
 

Passenger Performance

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Anyways, sorry for derailing the thread.
EMP's are the effect of too much flow for a given volume, the volume is the constant and the flow is the variable. Now because these turbo's have variable vanes you can actually change the volume, and flow rate that makes it to the turbine wheel. Where the problem lies with these turbos is that even with the vanes wide open the volume is still to small to support the flow rate of the exhaust. So the volume maxes out but the flow rate keeps increasing and thus the pressure increases as a natural side affect.
 
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