Elise TDI

pemtek

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Location
England
TDI
vw tdi golf
Hi,

I have collected together some parts to get on with a conversion for my Elise with hopefully about a 200bhp PD engine.

ATD PD engine with loom and EDC15+ ecu
6 speed gearbox
530d turbo
pd130 injectors

The Elise currently has a b16 turbo engine which has recently catastrophically failed due to a fuel pump failure. So I thought a Diesel engine would be fun in such a lightweight car approximately 700kg.

What i currently need is a schematic to get the engine running, I have searched around but cant find anything useful. I am an electronic engineer so the wiring is not a problem once I have the schematics.

I have already removed the immo from the ECU and hopefully the EGR but I will only know if that is successful once it has been run.

The engine mounts to fit the engine are basically identical to a common conversion of putting the VAG 1.8t engine in Elises which I have been involved in previously.

Thanks

Phil
 

Pat Dolan

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2002
Location
Martensville, SK
TDI
2003 A4 Variant, 2015 Q7
That is one swap that makes a LOT of sense to me.

You might be best off with a Robert Bentley repair manual (here is one in print to suit PD Jettas....Passat didn't seem to cover diesel). This is essentially the North American factory manual with very few exclusions. It DOES mean PD100, but is PD. Current flow diagrams are included, but you may not find detail on what is INSIDE of the wiring harness for ECU. Essentially, you have a choice of taking the VW insturment cluster and integrating or having the immobilization feature deleted by a tuner.

I have thought a fair bit about building a TDI powered solo racer, and the problem that I see in this kind of car is the horribly slow response time of turbo and VNT vanes to throttle input. If you are that adventurous, I would suggest compounding with a positive displacement supercharger (obviously opening up the ability to dump in a LOT more fuel as well - done with aftermarket injector bits and programming).

Keep us posted...wish I was in the UK now (you can't imagine what an Elise sells for in Canada).
 

CFM

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Location
Wells, Maine
TDI
1995 Saturn with a 1997 TDI drivetrain.
Someone was working on a diesel Elise a few years back; see if you can find the thread on the forum, there was a lot of good information about the swap, although I'm not sure if he ever finished it.
 

Seatman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 23, 2010
Location
Scotland
TDI
2007 Seat Alhambra 2L tdi
That sounds like a superb idea, the thought crossed my mind recently when I was thinking of my old mk1 mr2 I used to own. It'd be interesting to see how you get on:)
 

Pat Dolan

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2002
Location
Martensville, SK
TDI
2003 A4 Variant, 2015 Q7
Seatman: the Bluesport may be a wonderful car, but it will not be anywhere NEAR the handling of a Elise. You need to try one to see what I mean. It is actually not a very nice street car unless you live on VERY smoothe roads and are a bit of a glutton for punishment.
 

Seatman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 23, 2010
Location
Scotland
TDI
2007 Seat Alhambra 2L tdi
I've seen them around where I live and yeh I agree they handle superb. I've watched them coming round tight bends toward me as well and have also spoke to other people who have them and driven them and I wouldn't dream of arguing about their capabilities but I still think it's interesting that vw are building a mid engined tdi. It'll be very interesting to see what effect the extra weight has on the elise too.:)
 

pemtek

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Location
England
TDI
vw tdi golf
Hi,

sorry for my slow response I have been away on business in Chicago and Phoenix AZ for the past week.

The Elise's are starting to go up in price here at the moment even the GM / Vauxhall versions are starting to increase.

Mine is the lightest model made as it is an S1 and also does not have the moulded in boot / trunk..

I have two 230 Kompressor superchargers in my garage although I have no idea if one of these would be big enough for a compound setup. I am fairly sure I could get hold of the compound turbos from a 335d BMW quite cheaply as a friend of mine has a smashed engine from a crashed car.

Here is the car in its current guise before fuel pump failure: >

croft race circuit >

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6udo7eXM7w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvl6OU96iPU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP2Iaii3IaE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_bQCmWnYzU&feature=related

Some photos taken at Anglesey early days before I added the forged internals and had literally just got it running.

http://s889.photobucket.com/albums/ac93/pemtek/Elise/

Probably only about 250 bhp here being followed by a Honda K20 engine powered Elise before one of my water pipes removes itself!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hvOrfbUJyY

Tomorrow I am going to spend all day stripping the Honda engine out of the car ready to get the TDI in its new home!

Phil
 

CFM

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Location
Wells, Maine
TDI
1995 Saturn with a 1997 TDI drivetrain.
When you do, be sure to post some pictures of the process...it's always great to be able to see the engineering that goes into these projects.
 

pemtek

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Location
England
TDI
vw tdi golf
I have to fabricate mounts, drive shafts, exhaust, water pipes, boost pipes, fuel pipes, loom etc etc.

I will document what I can.

The car has to be finished for Easter weekend as I have already paid for a track day at Anglesey circuit with the Exiges group.

I am going to be busy!
 

pemtek

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Location
England
TDI
vw tdi golf
moving on

Hi,

quick update and a question..

The engine is now in the engine bay and I am just finishing off the engine mounts.

Water piping is sorted as is the fuel pipes except for the fuel cooler.

The question I have is the loom i got with the engine didnt seem to use the in tank fuel pump wiring? Is this normal? Am I missing something?

Thanks

Phil
 

jjordan11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Location
Lehi, UT
TDI
1988 Audi 80 quattro PD130, 1982 Westfalia TDI
I'll answer if you post some pictures :D. Usually the pump wiring is in the body's harness, if you look at a wiring diagram usually the fuel pump is fused off the power supply relay. I don't have my computer with my diagrams in front of me for an absolute answer, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.
 

pemtek

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Location
England
TDI
vw tdi golf
thanks for that I will go looking.

http://s889.photobucket.com/albums/ac93/pemtek/elise tdi/

I will take more photos tomorrow and post them up, I have been in the garage all day from 8am until 11:50pm...

Today I made the driveshafts, well everything other than welding. I cut and machined a set of original elise s1 shafts and joined them to sections of cut and machined golf shafts that came with the latest gearbox. I drilled the middle and threaded it with an M6 thread to I could screw the two halves together so there was no gap between them because the welding process cannot support more than a 3 thou air gap.

Tomorrow they are being EB welded (electron beam welded) together so hopefully they should not snap!

Tomorrow I am going to start the wiring. Should be easy once I get going, I have wired many conversions before.

Phil
 

pemtek

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Location
England
TDI
vw tdi golf
Thanks,

I like making things, i am actually an electronics engineer but I have a pretty decent workshop at home. Lathe, miller, plasma cutter,chop saws, ac dc tig, mig, big bandsaw, press etc etc

With regard to the mount I just made a template from card once I was happy I used the bandsaw to cut it out. There is another similar at the front. The bush is actually a lower wishbone bush from a ford ka (hateful small car). Maybe a bit stiff and make my teeth fall out I used the same on the Honda engine and it was ok.

I have the day off today so more work on the car but tomorrow I am off to Donnington to a trackday. (obviously not in my Elise)

Phil
 

pemtek

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Location
England
TDI
vw tdi golf
Hi,

does anyone know if an rpm signal is available from the an EDC15P ecu?

or do I have to mess about getting it from CAN bus?? :confused:

Thanks

Phil
 

pemtek

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Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Location
England
TDI
vw tdi golf
Great, thanks for that, It actually connects to T10w so I can put a pin in and connect to it :D

Wiring is nearly done it looks fairly neat in the car.

Phil
 

pemtek

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Location
England
TDI
vw tdi golf
quick update,

drive shafts are welded and looking great, will build them up this evening. Hoping to be able to start the engine tomorrow with a bit of luck.

I will post more photos at the weekend.
 

Whitbread

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 21, 2007
Location
Johannesburg, MI
TDI
Several
Hi,

does anyone know if an rpm signal is available from the an EDC15P ecu?

or do I have to mess about getting it from CAN bus?? :confused:

Thanks

Phil
If you're working with a 121 pin ecu, I believe it's pin 27 that gives a tach output. At least when I hooked up a NX Progressive nitrous controller it recognized the tach signal from that pin.

VWMikeL or Malone would know for sure what pin it would be if my memory is foggy.
 

pemtek

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Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Location
England
TDI
vw tdi golf
Thanks guys

I am going to post all my wiring documents I have made to make it easier for other people to put one of these motors in another car once I have proven mine.

Some more recent photos from the past week.

http://s889.photobucket.com/albums/ac93/pemtek/

Still think I will be finished well before my track day on Easter weekend.

Phil
 

pemtek

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Location
England
TDI
vw tdi golf
glow plug relay

Hi,

only issue I have now is glow plug wiring although it wont matter too much because I am pretty sure it will start regardless.

On the schematic I have shows that there is a glow plug driver of some description, however I think mine only used a relay.

Is this right? Also does anyone know which pin on the ECU drives the relay? (if it is a relay)

Thanks

Phil
 

e*clipse

Veteran Member
Joined
May 9, 2007
Location
Chico, CA
TDI
Toyota TDI swap
Hi Phil!

Awesome swap! The Elise is one of the best cars ever made, IMHO. :)

Yes, It'll start without the glow plugs. I just started mine yesterday without the glowplug harness. (mine broke into a million bits while I was swapping the injectors...)

The control for the relay is pin 68/50 or {pin 68/50 and 68/30}.

Because the VW glowplug relay is silly expensive, I purchased a generic relay. (make sure it can handle the current). It works w/ no problem. BTW, you can also do that w/ the fan control.

The control sinks the current for circuit 15 (ignition on), just like the power supply relay.

HTH,

E*clipse
 

pemtek

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Location
England
TDI
vw tdi golf
Thanks, I will try that tomorrow night. Does the none PD TDI have the same section of heater plug loom as the PD? if so I could send you a spare one I have.

http://s889.photobucket.com/albums/ac93/pemtek/?action=view&current=bb74a9df.jpg

bmw 530d turbo now hanging off the back of it ;)

some cleaning up of the manifold now needed because it looks a bit rough after several hours of cutting bashing and welding this evening.

Phil
 

e*clipse

Veteran Member
Joined
May 9, 2007
Location
Chico, CA
TDI
Toyota TDI swap
Please read before attaching the glow plug relay!!

Thanks, I will try that tomorrow night. Does the none PD TDI have the same section of heater plug loom as the PD? if so I could send you a spare one I have.
OMG!! :eek: I screwed up! A PD! This DOESN'T use the same ECU that I quoted the pins for.

PLEEEEZE don't put them there unless you have a 68pin ECU! :eek:

I'm VERY sorry. I should have read your earlier posts closer. :eek:
 

pemtek

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Location
England
TDI
vw tdi golf
running

Hi,

no problem I always check before I wire anything up. ;)

Anyway it starts instantly without the glowplugs connected so that is a bonus.

It started then stopped over and over then I realised the ECU I am using still had an immo. So I got out my vag cable and 20 seconds later voila no immo ;-)

I still don't have an RPM signal so I will go hunting with a scope when I have more time and see what is going on. Only other issue seems to be that I have an oil pressure switch working in reverse so I will have to find another switch that fits.

Just going to finish off the boost hoses and build the exhaust over the next few evenings and I should be ready for a test drive.

I found out today that my trackday is in 2 weeks time not 3 so I better get a move on!

Does anyone have a map for a PD with 130/150 injectors and a 530d turbo for something to start with? I have maps for lots of standard PD and TDI engines but for nothing hybrid. I guess I will try with a modified 150 map if I cant get anything better as the last one I did gave 207bhp which wont be so bad as a starting point in a 700kg car. :rolleyes:

Phil
 

pemtek

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Location
England
TDI
vw tdi golf
Moving along,

still not got the rev counter working but I think its because the voltage level is not compatible with the stack dash



I am hoping to be driving the car this weekend but I am still waiting for gear cables from a vx220 to arrive so I can change gear!



Yes I know the ECU in the photo has no box. It is one I got from the scrap yard the other day and was bent and looked like scrap. I took it out of the case removed the immo and voila it works perfect ;)

It is amazing that the intake is actually 3 times louder than the exhaust even without the silencer!

Phil
 

pemtek

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Location
England
TDI
vw tdi golf
Hi,

I am planning on using a baffled sump which I am hoping will be ok. I think the 1.8t petrol is an almost identical bottom end and sump pan which seems to survive well on track with a basic baffled sump.

I drove the car today for the first time, although it was only on grass as the rear body was not fitted. It drives very well I am really pleased it pulls so hard once it is on boost is instantly spins the wheels in third. I am hoping to get it on the road by Saturday ready for some testing and fine tuning!

I got the rev counter working by adding a 10k resistor to earth as it seems the VAG ecu requires a resistance to earth to work as the signal just floats otherwise (according to my scope).

Another problem I have is I have a Corrado flywheel and now I need a suitable diesel starter motor that does not grind on the flywheel and will start the car properly. Is there a motor suitable? It is so lazy starting with a 1.8t starter!

Some more photos, the silicone hoses i ordered have not arrived so I have improvised to get it running if you wonder why I have used a mixture of fittings and clamps!



VX220 gear cables and modified bracket with rose joints



stuff..



pedal modified to work on the standard throttle pedal, now mounted in the rear bulkhead behind drivers seat.



Some DIY adapters made for boost sensor and lotus (rover) temperature sensor






Phil
 

pemtek

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Location
England
TDI
vw tdi golf
Tomorrows jobs :- flexi in the exhaust and put the mounts on it. Air filter fitment. fit the rear body, refit the seats and go for a drive!

I will post some videos soon.
 
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