Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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IndigoBlueWagon

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Do home installations get carbon credit sales or just businesses?
Homes get it. This is a residential installation. Rules for businesses are different, and frequently change, at least around here. Unfortunately our warehouse is in a nearby town that has its own municipal power and they offer no energy saving incentives of any kind. No net metering, no credits on energy saving appliances, nothing.
 

ericy

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Do home installations get carbon credit sales or just businesses?
Yes. Every state is going to be a bit different, and in our state (Delaware), you get contracts for about 20 years. For us, the rate sort of depends on what year your system is installed. But not every state has this - previously we lived in Virginia, and they have nothing.

Ours is relatively decent - we get $82.50/1000kWh for the 1st 10 years, after that I think it drops to $35$/1000kWh. Our system generates approximately 13,000kWh per year, so our credit is roughly 1000$/yr. But other people will have different numbers.

Our case is different in another way. We bought the house with the solar already on it. How much did it change the sales price? Who knows - that's impossible to say, really. The previous owner was the one that went through the trouble to get it installed - all I had to do was some paperwork for the credits, and bug the installer to make some repairs.
 

tikal

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Return on Investment

Maybe it isn't just about efficiency. I was going to write that my house isn't very efficient, but maybe it's not so bad. Electric rates here are nearly 3x yours, and my bills prior to solar ran $100-125 in winter, around twice that in summer because of A/C and pool pump. I have a 6 kW system that pretty much zeros those bills out. So maybe you'd need something similar. At the power rates you're paying, I don't think I'd bother either.
Yes, the main point is the electrical rates vs total cost of the solar roof project. If the rates are low enough not a lot of people get excited about spending 15K to 20K dollars going solar.

I believe the same applies to gas prices and buying or not EVs for people in the market for an SUV in the neighborhood of 30K dollars or less.

Having said that buying a used EV below $15K to be used as a second city vehicle is not such a bad financial idea in my view.
 

nicklockard

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It irks me to no end that Arizona is so anti-solar. Just sucks. The utility companies own the legislature and government here. Immoral a-holes.

So, I guess I can't have good weather and cheap, self made power unless I move out of AZ. In the meantime, we're upgrading both AC units (both are shot @ 24 years old) to modern, 14 SEER units which should cut summer AC costs considerably. I tried to get the home warranty to upgrade me to higher SEER units if I paid the difference, but they're digging their heels in. I considered taking a cash out and installing multi-zone ductless mini split systems, but the house isn't really right for it (2 story), and the offered cash out was half of what it would cost me in summer (but almost what a system installation would cost in winter).

I'm looking to see what the payback time would be on a setup like this: https://www.hotspotenergy.com/titanium-pool-heat-exchangers/
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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That pool heating system is interesting. I use a solar cover on my pool and it gets full sun, so right now water is in the mid 80s. Not sure I'd want it much warmer.
 

Tin Man

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It irks me to no end that Arizona is so anti-solar. Just sucks. The utility companies own the legislature and government here. Immoral a-holes.

So, I guess I can't have good weather and cheap, self made power unless I move out of AZ. In the meantime, we're upgrading both AC units (both are shot @ 24 years old) to modern, 14 SEER units which should cut summer AC costs considerably. I tried to get the home warranty to upgrade me to higher SEER units if I paid the difference, but they're digging their heels in. I considered taking a cash out and installing multi-zone ductless mini split systems, but the house isn't really right for it (2 story), and the offered cash out was half of what it would cost me in summer (but almost what a system installation would cost in winter).

I'm looking to see what the payback time would be on a setup like this: https://www.hotspotenergy.com/titanium-pool-heat-exchangers/
I guess you can move to California where if building a new home you would be forced into it: https://www.azcentral.com/story/mon...-california-requirements-new-homes/602206002/
 

compu_85

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That pool heating system is interesting.
At a vacation house in SC we've rented a couple times there was an automatic solar heating system for the pool. It had a motorized valve, a temperature sensor in the array on the roof, a sensor in the pool side of the water loop, and a dial to change the setpoint. It would prevent the pump sending the the pool water up to the roof "heater" and radiating all the heat out of the pool overnight.

-J
 

turbobrick240

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I guess you can move to California where if building a new home you would be forced into it: https://www.azcentral.com/story/mon...-california-requirements-new-homes/602206002/
Or wait for the regressive state legislature to turn over- could happen sooner than we expect. Residential solar installations are growing rapidly in Arizona despite the current legislature being hostile to the industry. That's interesting about the California building requirement. I'm surprised that I hadn't heard about that.
 

Tin Man

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Or wait for the regressive state legislature to turn over- could happen sooner than we expect. Residential solar installations are growing rapidly in Arizona despite the current legislature being hostile to the industry. That's interesting about the California building requirement. I'm surprised that I hadn't heard about that.
How is it "regressive or hostile?" I don't know so please explain.
 
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turbobrick240

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Did you read the final section of the article sub-titled 'Arizona lawmakers have fought solar' ? That fight is unsustainable in more ways than one.
 

Tin Man

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Did you read the final section of the article sub-titled 'Arizona lawmakers have fought solar' ? That fight is unsustainable in more ways than one.
Interesting.


"Arizona Public Service Co. and other utilities have been adding new fees to solar customers, contending they don't pay their fair share of maintaining the power grid. The initiative, if passed, would end that practice."


So the state can force utility companies to service the needs of independent solar installations. Assuming any "fees" to be unfair or unproductive. Perhaps utility companies should just pay for solar energy from homeowners at the utility's "cost" instead, or do they do that already?


https://www.azcentral.com/story/mon...zona-solar-energy-ballot-initiative/83088390/


I'm no fan of extra fees, so I guess increasing the rates to non-solar customers would happen instead.


Within the larger picture, it still may be more economical for the utilities, which used to be controlled by public commissions, to create solar arrays saving money for everyone who uses electricity instead. That way, there would be a built-in fairness to those that can't afford or accommodate their own solar arrays.


Aw shucks, they're doing that already: https://web.archive.org/web/2013061...antas/plantas_en_construccion/estados_unidos/ Some state that Arizona, where doing the right thing doesn't help.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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I can see the argument for customers who generate solar power paying charges to help maintain the grid. After all, I use that too, and I'm not paying for it with the regular fee structure. On my current bill, only 40% of the total is for power generation. The remaining 60% is a bunch of charges, the big ones they call a Distribution Charge and a Transmission Charge. There are a bunch of little ones (less than $1 each) for things like a Distributed Solar Charge and Renewable Energy Charge.

The big benefit to utilities for customer power generation is saving the need to build new generation plants. Those costs are astronomical, not in the least because of very strong NIMBY sentiment. And it can also help them take more polluting plants offline, and use them less, even at peak generation times.

Side topic: The other day I noticed a new icon on my Nest phone app. It's a yellow/gold gear with a leaf in it. It's a program called "rush hour" which will reduce or stop your cooling demand during peak power demand (and for some utilities, cost) times of the day. Doesn't apply to me, of course, but it's an interesting idea.
 

kjclow

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Just pulled up my electric bill. I pay 10.5 cents per kwh. Last month my bill was $114.29. Icludes a $14 facilities charge, 7% sales tax, and .7% renewable energy rider. So I guess I'm helping support the solar systems out there.
 

Tin Man

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It all comes out with actuarial analysis of costs and expenditures, something too complex usually for the public to comprehend. I personally wonder if energy monopolies are detrimental to consumers.
 

nicklockard

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That pool heating system is interesting. I use a solar cover on my pool and it gets full sun, so right now water is in the mid 80s. Not sure I'd want it much warmer.
Yeah, the system only really saves AC cooling costs if you leave the pool uncovered. Basically, by providing a cold-side heat sink to accept rejected heat, your pool becomes a large radiator. Pools of larger surface area (gallons is immaterial) are more efficient in lowering the AC electric costs; it's especially effective during hot/dry times (April-ish until monsoon season, then after monsoon until it cools down in October-ish). So, it's a 'shoulder season' aid. It will still decrease cooling costs during warm/wet monsoon season, but not as much. Our house uses about half the annual cooling energy to cool during shoulder season, and the other half usage is during monsoon season (more enthalpy in wet, warm air to remove).

Short version: it trades one thing for another:

Less electric costs from more efficient deltaT on heat-rejecting (condenser) side--

in trade for--

More water consumption to replace that which was warmed and lost to evaporation

So, for my case, it would likely cut cooling power down by about 20%, but there are caveats:

  • APS charges more during peak usage hours from 3pm-8pm
  • APS tacks on a demand-charge
  • APS charges more for high demand during peak hours

So I literally have to build a fairly complex spreadsheet with average heat loading factors, by 5 minute increments, to calculate an expected payback period. :sigh:

gut feel: not worth hassle until after I install more shade trees. Gotta go for the 'low hanging fruit' of negawatts first.
 
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kjclow

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Yeah, the system only really saves AC cooling costs if you leave the pool uncovered. Basically, by providing a cold-side heat sink to accept rejected heat, your pool becomes a large radiator. Pools of larger surface area (gallons is immaterial) are more efficient in lowering the AC electric costs; it's especially effective during hot/dry times (April-ish until monsoon season, then after monsoon until it cools down in October-ish). So, it's a 'shoulder season' aid. It will still decrease cooling costs during warm/wet monsoon season, but not as much. Our house uses about half the annual cooling energy to cool during shoulder season, and the other half usage is during monsoon season (more enthalpy in wet, warm air to remove).

Short version: it trades one thing for another:

Less electric costs from more efficient deltaT on heat-rejecting (condenser) side--

in trade for--

More water consumption to replace that which was warmed and lost to evaporation

So, for my case, it would likely cut cooling power down by about 20%, but there are caveats:

  • APS charges more during peak usage hours from 3pm-8pm
  • APS tacks on a demand-charge
  • APS charges more for high demand during peak hours

So I literally have to build a fairly complex spreadsheet with average heat loading factors, by 5 minute increments, to calculate an expected payback period. :sigh:

gut feel: not worth hassle until after I install more shade trees. Gotta go for the 'low hanging fruit' of negawatts first.
Sounds similar to a heat pump. Works well in middle temps (30-80F) but not that great on either extreme.

I had a friend in southern Wisconsin that used a solar blanket on his pool. He typically swam through the end of October. I don't think he was in it before the end of April without a heater though.
 

turbobrick240

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It is a heat pump. It's just pumping the heat from inside the house into the pool instead of directly into the outside air or into the ground.
 

Lightflyer1

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I can see the argument for customers who generate solar power paying charges to help maintain the grid. After all, I use that too, and I'm not paying for it with the regular fee structure. On my current bill, only 40% of the total is for power generation. The remaining 60% is a bunch of charges, the big ones they call a Distribution Charge and a Transmission Charge. There are a bunch of little ones (less than $1 each) for things like a Distributed Solar Charge and Renewable Energy Charge.

The big benefit to utilities for customer power generation is saving the need to build new generation plants. Those costs are astronomical, not in the least because of very strong NIMBY sentiment. And it can also help them take more polluting plants offline, and use them less, even at peak generation times.

Side topic: The other day I noticed a new icon on my Nest phone app. It's a yellow/gold gear with a leaf in it. It's a program called "rush hour" which will reduce or stop your cooling demand during peak power demand (and for some utilities, cost) times of the day. Doesn't apply to me, of course, but it's an interesting idea.
This is one of the biggest reasons I didn't go with solar a while back when I last got estimates. The TDSU (Transmission and Distribution Utility) gets the lions portion of the bill and solar only reduces your consumption. So no matter what I do I still end up with over $100 bill a month for the TDSU and other things alone. When the transmission charges are more than the use charges, don't think it will sell much. Even if I generated all my own power and then some I would still end up with a nearly equal bill anyway between paying for the solar panels and the distribution charges.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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This is one of the biggest reasons I didn't go with solar a while back when I last got estimates. The TDSU (Transmission and Distribution Utility) gets the lions portion of the bill and solar only reduces your consumption. So no matter what I do I still end up with over $100 bill a month for the TDSU and other things alone. When the transmission charges are more than the use charges, don't think it will sell much. Even if I generated all my own power and then some I would still end up with a nearly equal bill anyway between paying for the solar panels and the distribution charges.
My utility's distribution and other charges are based on kWh purchased. So if you generate 100% of your power in a given month, the ancillary charges are zero. Maybe your utility does it differently. I haven't had to pay a bill since March, where I used slightly more than I generated and had credits accumulated. Dec-Feb are lousy generation months here, not surprisngly.
 

Lightflyer1

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Here, from my understanding is you are charged for both transferring both to and from your home. They don't cancel each other out. Solar credits can only be used for the electric portion of your bill not the transfer fees and taxes. There is no way you can zero your bill, and it seems the majority is for the transfer not the power itself. They will not buy your extra power produced either, just credits to be used against your power consumption on future bills with some deadline. I have a $345 bill coming and only about $144 of that is for actual power used. 1204 kwh at 12 cents.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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Well you are in an oil producing state. Maybe they're not welcoming alternative power generation.
 

Lightflyer1

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Who knows. Soon to be retiring and trying to sell this place and move away from town and build a smaller very energy efficient home for retirement. Got to move for lower taxes as well. I could rent an apartment for what my taxes are alone.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Texas is a little bigger than MA, you might have noticed. 4x as many people. Are they buying 4x as many EVs?
 

Lightflyer1

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Well it wasn't so bad until lots and lots of people started moving here. My homes value has doubled since I bought it 17 years ago. The rate has also increased over and over again. It was fairly reasonable when I bought it. Not so reasonable for retirement to have a huge home we don't use half of. A smaller home, more efficient, outside of city taxes will do a lot to reduce taxes and expenses for the rest of my life. Makes sense to buy and build to reduce rather than solar to provide my current needs.

By high taxes I meant from my current situation to what I have planned. I am thinking I can half the $10k I am paying now.

All my investments are in Roth IRA's and will be tax free when withdrawn. Social Security will not be taxed. So all I have to worry about is reducing property taxes and expenses.
 
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nwdiver

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What I would like to know is, what about the heat (warming) that occurs from capturing energy from sun/hydro/wind and releasing it into the atmosphere through high-powered EV tech? No-one seems to mention this as a source of climate change itself - the heat generated by EV use! Maybe not any different or at least better than ICE, but shouldn't we at least measure this???
Can't tell if that's satire... but here's some numbers... who doesn't love numbers?

The total amount of energy used by all of humanity for everything from everything; Nuclear, wind, solar, diesel.... everything is estimated at ~160,000TWh/yr. That all eventually becomes heat.

Meanwhile. The additional energy added globally from radiative forcing of ~1.5w/m^2 due to CO2 being >400ppm instead of the ~280ppm it was before fools fuel was a thing is calculated at ~6,600,000 TWh/yr

So... 160,000TWh/yr from all the energy everyone uses vs 6,600,000TWh/yr from CO2. Physics.
 

Tin Man

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Can't tell if that's satire... but here's some numbers... who doesn't love numbers?

The total amount of energy used by all of humanity for everything from everything; Nuclear, wind, solar, diesel.... everything is estimated at ~160,000TWh/yr. That all eventually becomes heat.

Meanwhile. The additional energy added globally from radiative forcing of ~1.5w/m^2 due to CO2 being >400ppm instead of the ~280ppm it was before fools fuel was a thing is calculated at ~6,600,000 TWh/yr

So... 160,000TWh/yr from all the energy everyone uses vs 6,600,000TWh/yr from CO2. Physics.
Wow, its that much more for CO2 caused GW. Thanks. No its not satire, but can help understand the whole picture....
 

Daemon64

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A little different piece but:

I think I've decided that early to mid next year I am custom ordering one of the 2021 Q5 PHEV Prestige w/o the pano, normal is 0-60 in 5s, pano removes 200lbs ( I'd have to think this will increase efficieny as well ) so should get sub 5s, electric motor torque is instant, and the 2.0 makes peak torque @ 1350 rpm, so earlier than my TDI. Going w/ the sport package so adaptive air ride, and the such... pretty much I save around 25k in mods I'd so to mine, between that, and the resale value of mine I'll be up around 40k to invest in a new one. Not to mention a 6.5k Fed Tax, and 1.5k State tax break... Plus I do tons of 5 - 6 mile trips so having PHEV is a win win for me, and I still get to tow w/ it. Sorry to disappoint, I like diesels, but the PHEV is just as efficient in HEV operation, and when i remove the extra weight it will have more grunt, and the same weight as my Q5 currently. If you look on fuelly you will see people getting 44 - 62 MPG with them because of using more electricity, I only average 27.2 w/ mine. And i have to believe with all the city driving I do have the PHEV part will reduce my carbon footprint significantly. http://www.fuelly.com/car/audi/q5/2020
 
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