Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

[VeeDubTDI]

You should also look at replacing your ceiling fans with DC motors. Supposed to be more energy efficient and much quieter. I put one in my bedroom earlier this year and at a medium level you don't hear the fan or the blades. On high, there are 6 speeds, the thing will blow you out of bed but still can't hear the motor. In the fall, I'll be replacing the one in the living room with a DC motor too.

Very interesting! I didn't know that was a thing.

 

[kjclow]

I don't know, when I replaced my dinosaur of an electric heating and cooling system last November it dropped by electric bill by over 50%. The 17 SEER two stage heat pump costs between 1/3 and one half of what a photovoltaic system would cost me installed. How long would it take to pay for a solar power system when my remaining power bill is less than $100 a month?. New windows will probably be my next purchase.

Over the years of home ownership, I've seen similar savings. First just by insulating a home built in 1914. We put over 150 bags into the walls and attic. Raised the attic floor by 8 inches to be able to add more insulation on top of the existing rock wool. Even with the 1950s gas furnace, I dropped energy consumption by more than 50%. In my current home, I replaced the builder's system from 95 to a 16 seer dual stage AC and higher efficiency furnace. Saw savings in the 40% range. I know I have to do windows too but that's next years project.

 

[kjclow]

Of course, the best solution is likely south-facing with storage (both local and on-grid as necessary). That way, you get maximum energy collection, while being able to smooth demand (anything that's not needed to satisfy immediate demand goes into storage, and can be released later during the afternoon peak).

BEST option would be to have solar panels with a tracking array and storage. Directly face the sun for the total of daylight hours. Of course, that mikes it much more expensive and heavy. The tracking systems would probably work best in a place like Pkhoury's goat pasture.

 

[pkhoury]

You're going off the deep end again. Reality check time:

- EV "revolution" = Less than 1% market share...and that's WITH enticing buyers with big tax rebates and crazy low lease incentives. Without the EPA, CARB, and government subsidies, EV's probably don't exist.

For me personally, I'll take EVs seriously when I can find a good condition used EV with at least 60-80% battery capacity left for the same price as a similarly aged TDI. The cost of new is quite extraordinary.

 

[pkhoury]

I live in Utah, and unless I spend all my time in downtown Salt Lake and never drive further than the closest coffee shop I couldn't use an EV. Even the best of them have nowhere near a useful range. You can hop from charging station to charging station if you have a Tesla, but it takes forever to get where you're going.

EVs may be viable someday, but they won't be battery powered. Batteries will always be too big and too heavy, and they will always involved expensive, Earth-destroying metals that often have to be sourced in foreign countries with hostile governments. Super-capacitors may make the difference.

And, of course, at this point most EVs run on COAL.

-mickey

I always found it ironic, when I lived in So Cal, when I saw electric buses that said "zero emissions" on the side. And I always though "Hmm, I doubt they're being charged 100% with solar." Plus, there's the environmental impact of producing the batteries, tires, and I'm sure it still has fluids that need to be changed periodically, along with other maintenance items that include consumables that aren't exactly environmentally friendly.

Are super capacitors similar in concept to a 1F capacitor, but being able to hold more of a charge? Or would they even be similar to an electrolytic capacitor? I think those still have a finite lifecycle, right? I don't personally know much about super caps.

 

[pkhoury]

Those rare earth metals that you're worried about? The largest uses are in catalytic converters, which are rarely, if ever, recycled. They are just left to rot with the rest of the cars in a junk yard somewhere. Or crushed and mixed in with the rest of the metal as it is melted to be recycled into something else.

I thought cats used to be worth money; I remember reading news reports about catalytic converter theft on parked cars in peoples' driveways at night, along with copper wire heists (presumably for meth addicts recycling the metals to buy more dope). Don't they have palladium or platinum in there, albeit in small quantities?

 

[powerfool]

Hmm, very late comer to this thread. I think the original premise that, you need a 2nd car, isn't necessarily true. I don't know if the charging plugs are standard, but the Tesla super charging stations are all over now. You can do a 45 minutes charge on these. So, as long as you have a decent range of nearly 200 miles, or more, you should be fine. Obviously, there will be exceptions... like places that are not near a highway and will have limited availability of charging stations. However, you don't need a 2nd car to handle those conditions... it would be far cheaper to just rent another car when the need arises.

 

[Oilerlord]

Interestingly, I met a gentleman at our local EV club meeting who is a Sunpower installer and he mentioned that their PV panels are up to 23% efficient right now. Pretty good advances have been made in recent years.

My circa 2010 Sunpower SPR-225's are at 18.1%. That, along with their small size allowed me to install as many DC watts as possible. They are supposed to have an advantage over the competition in low-light situations, but I think the actual difference is more about marketing than anything else. I think they were originally ~$3/watt. I picked mine up used for $0.44 per watt in 2015.

Sunpower stuff is great, but expensive. If you have the space for extra PV, I don't think chasing efficiency is worth the premium.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

For me personally, I'll take EVs seriously when I can find a good condition used EV with at least 60-80% battery capacity left for the same price as a similarly aged TDI. The cost of new is quite extraordinary.

That's exactly what I was able to find with my 500e. >95% capacity (based on estimated range and how much energy I can put into it when charging), for a mere $8,000. Try to buy a 2013 TDI for $8,000 and see how far you get. Unfortunately, I don't think 90 miles of range is enough for your needs unless you're just using it to run to San Antonio and back, which it would be great at.

I think in two years time, you'll be able to get a Chevy Bolt EV for less than $15,000 off-lease.

 

[kjclow]

I thought cats used to be worth money; I remember reading news reports about catalytic converter theft on parked cars in peoples' driveways at night, along with copper wire heists (presumably for meth addicts recycling the metals to buy more dope). Don't they have palladium or platinum in there, albeit in small quantities?

haven't heard about cat thefts for sometime. yes, there are some expensive metals in there but it's supposedly a real pain in the butt to recover them. They are also reactive with the exhaust, so I'm not sure how much value they would have left.

 

[Oilerlord]

I always found it ironic, when I lived in So Cal, when I saw electric buses that said "zero emissions" on the side. And I always though "Hmm, I doubt they're being charged 100% with solar." Plus, there's the environmental impact of producing the batteries, tires, and I'm sure it still has fluids that need to be changed periodically, along with other maintenance items that include consumables that aren't exactly environmentally friendly.

City budgets are usually stretched pretty tight, and while I agree with the philosophy of treading lightly on the environment - electric buses are an absolute waste of taxpayer dollars. They make an environmental statement, but little else.

It isn't only that they cost nearly twice as much as a diesel hybrid bus (CDN $970,000 vs CDN $500,000), the fact is that buses typically run 12-18 hours per day. After an operator's shift, they go back to the garage for a (quick) refueling, a driver change, and head back out. With an e-bus, you need to have a second bus on standby to take over a route when the e-bus runs out of juice.

Here's the political spin:

"The battery-powered buses are estimated to go between 250 and 280 kilometres on a single four- to five-hour charge.

That would mean any of the routes that we currently have through St. Albert or into Edmonton, an electric bus could do the morning route, come back, park in the afternoon and go back out and do the afternoon route without a charge," Bamber said."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/st-albert-electric-bus-edmonton-1.4128666

While true, it's not the whole truth.

 

[powerfool]

I have been to all sorts of junk yards... and I am going to call BS on the catalytic converters just sitting there to rot with everything else. First, the places I go... they take those out of cars, first thing, because they make money on that. Secondly, if they didn't, that would be the FIRST thing customers would do when they got new cars in... take the cats, or at least the rare metals in them. I personally looked into doing this myself to see if there was any money to be made just hanging out at the self-service junk yards; they're not there. Plus, if the junk yards didn't do it themselves, the employees would eventually hear about it and do it before it made it out there for the general public.

 

[powerfool]

City budgets are usually stretched pretty tight, and while I agree with the philosophy of treading lightly on the environment - electric buses are an absolute waste of taxpayer dollars. They make an environmental statement, but little else.

I would add that they make very little of an environmental statement. In all but the busiest of metropolitan areas (NYC and London), they operate mostly empty all day outside of rush hour times. Buses are environmental drains, electric or otherwise.

 

[Oilerlord]

That's exactly what I was able to find with my 500e. >95% capacity (based on estimated range and how much energy I can put into it when charging), for a mere $8,000. Try to buy a 2013 TDI for $8,000 and see how far you get. Unfortunately, I don't think 90 miles of range is enough for your needs unless you're just using it to run to San Antonio and back, which it would be great at.
I think in two years time, you'll be able to get a Chevy Bolt EV for less than $15,000 off-lease.

Coincidentally, my 2-year old used JSW was $25,000. My 2-year old used Mercedes B250e was $23,000 and the battery diagnostic came back at 99.2% capacity remaining. The JSW had 9,000 miles on it; the MB had 6,000 miles.

I may consider a used Bolt sometime down the road, but damn it feels cheap inside, and those seats - Ugh!. I guess something has to give when building an "affordable" EV.

 

[CraziFuzzy]

Correct, the idea behind thermal storage is to store excess energy for later use. The article discusses thermal storage as a means to level grid supply. The author mentions storing the energy from photovoltaics, wind turbines, and concentrating solar thermal in molten salts, and ceramics. Other articles I've read also include silicon, concrete, and phase change materials for storing heat. That heat can then spin a steam turbine, power thermophotovoltaics, or be used for industrial applications requiring heat.
While the efficiency takes a hit every time energy is converted from one form to another, paying to get rid of that excess electricity isn't terribly efficient either. A typical PV panel may only be 16% efficient, but sunlight is free.

My point was that the efficiency loss of going from electric to thermal and back to electric (PV stored in salts, for instance) is FAR worse than going from electric to chemical and back to electric (PV stored in battery).

 

[CraziFuzzy]

For me personally, I'll take EVs seriously when I can find a good condition used EV with at least 60-80% battery capacity left for the same price as a similarly aged TDI. The cost of new is quite extraordinary.

Have you seen the market prices for off-lease 500e's?

 

[Oilerlord]

To be fair, and as great as it is, the 500e is a tiny car. Range notwithstanding, if we're comparing against his 2013 JSW, with something approaching the size / rear legroom / cargo capacity, you'd need to look at a Soul EV, or similar. You're not going to find a very low mileage / 95%+ battery capacity remaing example of one of those for $6-8K...try more like $16-18K.

 

[turbobrick240]

My point was that the efficiency loss of going from electric to thermal and back to electric (PV stored in salts, for instance) is FAR worse than going from electric to chemical and back to electric (PV stored in battery).

Yes, but efficiency is only half of the equation. Cost is the other half. NASA might have 50% efficient PV panels, but if they cost $100/watt, then 16% efficient panels at $.30/watt look pretty good comparatively(assuming you don't need to power a space station). But battery technology keeps evolving and I don't doubt it will play an important role in energy storage. Sodium ion battery tech might be just the ticket at some point.

 

[pkhoury]

That's exactly what I was able to find with my 500e. >95% capacity (based on estimated range and how much energy I can put into it when charging), for a mere $8,000. Try to buy a 2013 TDI for $8,000 and see how far you get. Unfortunately, I don't think 90 miles of range is enough for your needs unless you're just using it to run to San Antonio and back, which it would be great at.

I think in two years time, you'll be able to get a Chevy Bolt EV for less than $15,000 off-lease.

Ha, San Antonio and back, depending on where I'm going, is about 140-200 miles. The only thing I can think of would be going to the grocery store and back (60 miles round trip).

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Coincidentally, my 2-year old used JSW was $25,000. My 2-year old used Mercedes B250e was $23,000 and the battery diagnostic came back at 99.2% capacity remaining. The JSW had 9,000 miles on it; the MB had 6,000 miles.
I may consider a used Bolt sometime down the road, but damn it feels cheap inside, and those seats - Ugh!. I guess something has to give when building an "affordable" EV.

The Bolt EV drives really nicely, but I still consider it to be a compliance car. Limited quick charging speeds make it very difficult to take it on a proper road trip, and the CCS network leaves a lot to be desired right now (although it should improve with a substantial infusion of VW money in the near future). If it weren't for the exceptionally narrow seats and the slow DC fast charging, we would consider one over a Model 3. In our opinion, the Tesla represents a lot better value, even in "base" trim. Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind after the Model 3 reveal in late July.

 

[CraziFuzzy]

The Bolt EV drives really nicely, but I still consider it to be a compliance car. Limited quick charging speeds make it very difficult to take it on a proper road trip, and the CCS network leaves a lot to be desired right now (although it should improve with a substantial infusion of VW money in the near future). If it weren't for the exceptionally narrow seats and the slow DC fast charging, we would consider one over a Model 3. In our opinion, the Tesla represents a lot better value, even in "base" trim. Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind after the Model 3 reveal in late July.

I have no desire for my daily driver to also be my roadtrip car. Those are two very different roles, so I'd much rather have two very different cars to fulfill them. Having a single car to do both will result in either a very expensive single vehicle, or a compromise in the capabilities of one or both roles.

Quite often my road trips involve towing as well, so if I forced myself into having the single vehicle, I'd be driving my Armada around town daily, getting it's 12mpg short trip mileage for most of it's life. Having a different car for a different role really is the best option for most people. With that in mind, we've got:
- a Fiat 500e for my daily driving, and about half of my wife's.
- a Nissan Armada for towing the trailer on camping trips.
- a '67 Mustang because.
- a Hyundai Azera as the rest of my wife's daily driver and our non-camping road trip and night out car.

The worst fit of all of those and least suited to its total usage is that my wife drives the Azera almost daily. We could have chosen to go with a plugin hybrid for that task, but it would have cost a lot more, and compromised the luxury/comfort of the night out and road trips tasks. For the low market price of the off rental Azera ($18,000 only a year old), we were okay with it not being ideal for now.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I'm certainly not talking about a single vehicle household, as our household of three drivers currently has seven vehicles (two EVs, one gasser and four diesels).

If we were to minimize the number of vehicles we owned, we would have one vehicle for city only (Fiat 500e, for example) and one vehicle for commuting and road trips (Tesla Model 3, for example). If we wanted to minimize vehicles while retaining the ability to tow heavy things, we might consider a Model X or some sort of plug-in hybrid that could do the daily commuting duty on electricity.

As for the Bolt EV, I'm still having trouble figuring out where exactly it fits into the market. As a commuter, it has way more battery than most people need. As a road tripper, it isn't comfortable and charges too slowly. What remains is a vehicle that really only excels in the long-distance commuter segment - people who drive more than 80 miles round-trip to work. For that purpose, it's great.

Edit: The Bolt EV might also be good for apartment-dwellers who don't have the ability to charge at home. It has enough range to do several days of regular commuting duty before it needs to be charged.

 

[CraziFuzzy]

As for the Bolt EV, I'm still having trouble figuring out where exactly it fits into the market. As a commuter, it has way more battery than most people need. As a road tripper, it isn't comfortable and charges too slowly. What remains is a vehicle that really only excels in the long-distance commuter segment - people who drive more than 80 miles round-trip to work. For that purpose, it's great.

Edit: The Bolt EV might also be good for apartment-dwellers who don't have the ability to charge at home. It has enough range to do several days of regular commuting duty before it needs to be charged.

Quite simply, it fits for people who want EV's, but don't have a realistic idea of the actual range they need, and just seen the 80 mile range previously and think 'I can't do that'. It is not really fitting a market need so much as a market demand. That said, it would work for my wife's use, as SOME days she has to visit different locations, and can push 120 miles in a day (and unfortunately doesn't know until mid-day if she'll be doing that). But her typical day is around 40 miles. This is why i feel her 'proper' daily driver is a plugin hybrid - but a plugin hybrid with the level of comfort/luxury mamma wants is something daddy ain't gonna to pay for.

 

[bhtooefr]

Maybe a used ELR is the way to go for that? Horrific depreciation, so it's actually reasonably affordable.

 

[Owain@malonetuning]

Maybe a used ELR is the way to go for that? Horrific depreciation, so it's actually reasonably affordable.

Blasphemy!

35 mile range and a 1.4L 90HP gas motor in a 2 ton car that was over 70k new. If there was ever a vehicle created for carbon credits so they could sell more gas guzzling escalades, this is it

 

[bhtooefr]

Hey, I didn't say to buy one new. (Although... there might be some new ones rotting on dealer lots for cheap...)

 

[Owain@malonetuning]

I see that you too are a fan of the doug score.

 

[CraziFuzzy]

The Azera she's got is already running deep in the depreciation curve, based on it being sold primarily to rental fleets. We do like it, I was just stating it to make the point of it being the 'compromise' you get when trying to get as much role into a single vehicle as you can. It compromises efficiency (20/29 mpg) to get the luxury and comfort, with adequate performance, at a great price point. It's a big 300hp sedan, and it drives like one (and drinks like one). It also has the nice quirk of never seeing another one on the road (only about 39,000 of the current generation were sold in the states over 6 model years).

 

[oilhammer]

Just an update to this thread, spoke with a friend from the Volkswagen dealer I was at years ago. He had a conversation with the regional sales consultant for VoA and he said they are pushing forward on several electric cars, purpose built ones, not like the eGolf. As early as 2020 model year they hope to have one model with at least three more to follow shortly thereafter. All based on a new MEB platform. This may be old news here, just thought I'd share.

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

Just an update to this thread, spoke with a friend from the Volkswagen dealer I was at years ago. He had a conversation with the regional sales consultant for VoA and he said they are pushing forward on several electric cars, purpose built ones, not like the eGolf. As early as 2020 model year they hope to have one model with at least three more to follow shortly thereafter. All based on a new MEB platform. This may be old news here, just thought I'd share.

Any info on RANGE?