Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

Status
Not open for further replies.

Oilerlord

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Location
Edmonton, Canada
TDI
2012 JSW TDI w/DSG. 700 Mile Club. 2008 BMW X3 "Beatrice", 2004 BMW 330Xi, 2014 Mercedes B-Class Electric
Wow- last week Tesla surpassed Ford in market value. This week they surpassed GM to become N. America's most valuable automaker! Despite all efforts by GM to fend off the Silicon Valley tech giant.
It's difficult to grasp how "valuable" a company is that burns cash, and loses money every quarter. I get that TSLA is a growth play but at some point, Elon's going to have to show there is a profitable business beyond the red ink & his vision to save the world with solar, batteries, and electric cars.

I see a bumpy road ahead for Tesla & it's stock price...but what do I know...I almost shorted the stock when it was 30 bucks. Now that it's ~$300, I'm tempted again. I wish the best for Tesla however the business is extremely overvalued, and is still highly speculative.

It's one thing to sell a low volume car (Model S, X), but quite another to fulfill 400,00+ orders in a timely basis, and support those customers from what is largely an online presence. We'll see.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
It's difficult to grasp how "valuable" a company is that burns cash, and loses money every quarter. I get that TSLA is a growth play but at some point, Elon's going to have to show there is a profitable business beyond the red ink & his vision to save the world with solar, batteries, and electric cars.

I see a bumpy road ahead for Tesla & it's stock price...but what do I know...I almost shorted the stock when it was 30 bucks. Now that it's ~$300, I'm tempted again. I wish the best for Tesla however the business is extremely overvalued, and is still highly speculative.

It's one thing to sell a low volume car (Model S, X), but quite another to fulfill 400,00+ orders in a timely basis, and support those customers from what is largely an online presence. We'll see.
Yeah, I think it's the nature of the market that the biggest profits come with the most risk associated. Clearly there are a lot of investors who see tremendous potential for earnings in Tesla. Time will tell just how wise or unwise their investments were. But at present, shorting Tesla stock is a losing proposition.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
My dad's '94 F150 has the steering column covers falling apart, no screws in the clamshell, and it was literally hanging on by the ignition lock cylinder. It made it out of the factory, and through the dealer's PDI that way. I spotted it within point-zero-eleventy seconds of opening the passenger door. :eek:
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Tis but a scratch. Haha. Yeah, that's disappointing. More proof they really are American cars.
 

Oilerlord

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Location
Edmonton, Canada
TDI
2012 JSW TDI w/DSG. 700 Mile Club. 2008 BMW X3 "Beatrice", 2004 BMW 330Xi, 2014 Mercedes B-Class Electric

TomJD

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Location
St. Louis
TDI
2000 Jetta TDI GLS, 2015 Golf TDI
Now I've never bought a $127k car, but both my parents have bought new cars in the past 6 months and both dealers said they could return it within 7 days. I imagine a similar offer would be extended for someone forking over that money, or maybe not.
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
Per VW: http://media.vw.com/doc/1737/1413071245566f0e239d977.pdf

Engine's the same, and that's most of what you see under the hood... but the electric motor is 27 hp/114 lb-ft (resulting in 170 hp, 184 lb-ft combined output), it's a 1.1 kWh battery, and it's a 7-speed transmission. EPA mileage was 42 city, 44 combined, 48 highway.

Compare to the A3 e-tron: https://www.audiusa.com/models/audi-a3-sportback-e-tron

102 hp electric motor, 8.8 kW battery (8x the size), 6-speed transmission. The Audi site is bad at representing mileage info, but it's 34 mpg combined once the battery's depleted.
Also using Fuelly is difficult to get a more realistic expected average MPG for the A3 e-tron as it seems some folks are reporting electrical only MPG (three digit values, wow!).
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Fuelly's unable to report electrical usage on an EV, as I understand, so people with PHEVs often end up just reporting gasoline in versus miles driven on there. If you rarely deplete the battery, you'll get amazing mileage.
 

Oilerlord

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Location
Edmonton, Canada
TDI
2012 JSW TDI w/DSG. 700 Mile Club. 2008 BMW X3 "Beatrice", 2004 BMW 330Xi, 2014 Mercedes B-Class Electric
Fuelly makes no sense with my EV. I could post big MPGe numbers too - but what's the point. Given a lot of my charging happens from free public sites, I'm not about to do the math on every charge to figure out what I already know - the car is amazingly cheap to drive. It's costing me in the ballpark of 90 cents to drive 100 miles. If I'm out +/- 20% depending on range given the season, it still doesn't matter to me.
 

CraziFuzzy

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Location
Jurupa Valley
TDI
'09 JSW (GoneBack) - replaced with '15 Azera and '16 Fiat 500e.
Fuelly makes no sense with my EV. I could post big MPGe numbers too - but what's the point. Given a lot of my charging happens from free public sites, I'm not about to do the math on every charge to figure out what I already know - the car is amazingly cheap to drive. It's costing me in the ballpark of 90 cents to drive 100 miles. If I'm out +/- 20% depending on range given the season, it still doesn't matter to me.
My fiat lease will cost be about $0.35/mile when I turn it in... that's INCLUDING the electricity, down payment, lease payments and insurance - and, seriously, most of that is the insurance :)eek:).
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
OK, I stand corrected, I guess. The similarities are, in my opinion, greater than the differences. I'm talking conceptual, drivability... not specifics, like the floorpan, chassis or "platform". I hold to my opinion that VAG can sell the concept as an Audi and get 20k more for it. As to my Jetta, another battery bank and charger and you've got... Essentially... The A3 e-Tron.
The comparison should be to an eGolf not a Jetta. Our eGolf is faster than the eTron, in fact, in electric mode but doesn't have the range of the hybrid. My wife and I considered a Jetta Hybrid for a few years but everything I've read indicated no one seemed to be able to hit the mileage estimates.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
I hadn't heard about Tesla's plans to do that, but there are a number of small EV shops that are retrofitting and electrifying old air-cooled VWs. EV West out in California does a lot of really cool projects.
It will be a cold day in Hell before I choose to electrify my baby:

You never know. My university (Cal State Los Angeles) electrified a classic Porsche - either 70s or 80s. I don't know the range on it, but the specs were certainly impressive. We talked about that during a mini tour from an alternative fuel vehicles class I had in 2012.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
In case anyone's curious, I called up Tesla while I had time to kill on my last road trip this past Monday, and talked about doing a test drive. The rep I spoke with was actually pretty cool and didn't seem to push anything on me, but I haven't yet setup a test drive (I'd like to, though). He did acknowledge that based on my driving needs, an EV would probably not be a good choice right now, given that I tend to drive 600-800 miles a day on long trips, or that my longer single day trips (200-400 miles) are all rural; he identified only one route that had a conventional charger. Obviously, it wouldn't be practical to drive 180 miles to get feed/supplies and then spend the night just to charge up the car.

It will be interesting to see how the supercharger network works in the future, although I'm not used to stopping more than 15 minutes at a time, even if that includes fueling up.
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
You never know. My university (Cal State Los Angeles) electrified a classic Porsche - either 70s or 80s. I don't know the range on it, but the specs were certainly impressive. We talked about that during a mini tour from an alternative fuel vehicles class I had in 2012.
There is a company that electrifies old VW's in California. They have quite a good business and the cost is like $25,000. This is them:

http://www.ev4unow.com/EV4UAboutUS.html
 

rotarykid

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
TDI
1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
more like $125-140k to do the old restored micro bus with electric power

There is a company that electrifies old VW's in California. They have quite a good business and the cost is like $25,000. This is them:
http://www.ev4unow.com/EV4UAboutUS.html

these guys were on "wheeler dealers" on velocity a few seasons back.....

but on the cost, :eek:it was a h3ll of lot more than $25k! though....

the one they were driving as a demonstrator was more like $125-140k to do the old restored micro bus with electric power....It was fast but, the way they talked this was neither cheap nor easy to do to these things...
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
these guys were on "wheeler dealers" on velocity a few seasons back.....

but on the cost, :eek:it was a h3ll of lot more than $25k! though....

the one they were driving as a demonstrator was more like $125-140k to do the old restored micro bus with electric power....It was fast but, the way they talked this was neither cheap nor easy to do to these things...
Well, of course. That's thanks to economies of scale. If they were building at the same level as Tesla, then $25K would be more realistic.

This is the electric Porsche that my university restored. Apparently, there aren't any photos, although I think I took some at some point while I was a student years ago.
http://www.calstatela.edu/orgs/autoengineers/Screamin' Eagle/index.htm
 

CraziFuzzy

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Location
Jurupa Valley
TDI
'09 JSW (GoneBack) - replaced with '15 Azera and '16 Fiat 500e.
At this point, if you are wanting to build a small electric car, the cheapest option may very well be to buy a used fiat 500e for $6-7k, and gut the power plant and drop it into the new vehicle as is.
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
Good luck packaging the battery.

That seems to be the biggest challenge (though Type 2s have a lot of under floor volume unused).
The battery can be disassembled and reconfigured to fit your application. It's a bit more work than just bolting it up under the floor, but it isn't an insurmountable issue.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
How long does the battery in the Fiat EV last again? And unless battery technology starts changing in the next few years, I don't see EVs working for anyone other than those in large metropolitan areas.

A few years ago, I test drove a Nissan Leaf (because of some BS mailer promising me 10 bucks cash or something for coming in). The dealer was only 5 miles from where I lived at the time, but I remember the range on that car being about 60 miles with the way I drove. The place I lived next, that wouldn't even provide a full trip to my university one way!

Otherwise, the Leaf was a pretty cool car, especially for being a Nissan.
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
How long does the battery in the Fiat EV last again? And unless battery technology starts changing in the next few years, I don't see EVs working for anyone other than those in large metropolitan areas.

A few years ago, I test drove a Nissan Leaf (because of some BS mailer promising me 10 bucks cash or something for coming in). The dealer was only 5 miles from where I lived at the time, but I remember the range on that car being about 60 miles with the way I drove. The place I lived next, that wouldn't even provide a full trip to my university one way!

Otherwise, the Leaf was a pretty cool car, especially for being a Nissan.
How far can you go on a charge? Or what is the life of the battery?

Right now I'm getting about 100 miles of range per charge, driving around town without much highway. Highway driving at 55 mph doesn't drop the range very much, but going faster certainly does.

In the winter time, heater use will reduce the range significantly. I expect something between 60 and 70 miles in the winter, which is still more than enough for my daily needs.

As for life span, nobody knows yet. Thermally managed batteries are doing a lot better than things like the Nissan LEAF. Teslas with 100,000 miles are only showing about a 5% degradation, compared to some LEAFs that are experiencing 30% in only two or three years in hot climates. The cost of entry is so cheap on the 500e that battery degradation is mostly irrelevant to me, although some owners report no noticeable loss in 50,000 miles.
 
Last edited:

CraziFuzzy

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Location
Jurupa Valley
TDI
'09 JSW (GoneBack) - replaced with '15 Azera and '16 Fiat 500e.
The battery can be disassembled and reconfigured to fit your application. It's a bit more work than just bolting it up under the floor, but it isn't an insurmountable issue.
If I was to do it, I'd likely be building a new battery solution anyway. The fiat sized battery would be insufficient in just about any other vehicle, since just about any other vehicle would be larger AND heavier.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Keep in mind that it's 24 kWh, though - same size as a pre-2017 Leaf or e-Golf, bigger than a pre-2017 i3.
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
For an EV VW bus, I'd be looking at a salvaged 60 kWh Tesla battery pack, some sort of DC fast charging and at least a 10 kW on-board charger (40 amp, 240 volt). It'd be expensive, but you could go anywhere. If you really wanted to adventure off the beaten path, you could go with the dual Tesla chargers for 20 kW of AC charging from two RV plugs.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
For that matter, mount solar panels on the roof of the van too. It would at least give you some charge when out in the middle of no where.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
I wonder how much savings an EV owner in CA would really get over a traditional hybrid. My relatives just told me that electricity went up out there. When I was in CA, I was always in what the local provider noted as "Tier 4", now called "Tier 3." Apparently, the cost over baseline is 25 cents per kWh, and then it jumps to 31 cents!
https://www.sce.com/wps/portal/home...5Mm1btwAd1s5VA!!/dl4/d5/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Even if there are not any EV charging subsidies ... even if you take that 31 (let's round it to 32) cents per kWh ... Most normal EVs go about 4 miles per kWh, so that's 8 cents per mile.

An economy car at 40 mpg with gasoline costing US$2.40 per gallon (and isn't that higher in California as well) will cost 6 cents per mile.

The electricity rates that you quote are exceptional circumstances. Here in Ontario, even with our high-ish hydro rates, it costs about a quarter as much to feed an EV as it does to feed a gasoline engine vehicle.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top