Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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nwdiver

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The grid average as of 2014 show EV twice as damaging to air quality as gasoline or diesel.
The problem isn't EVs... it's coal... which is quickly going away. We're adding Solar PV production >10x faster than EV consumption.

Should we wait until our coal fleet is shutdown before replacing our ICE fleet? Or perhaps do both in parallel....
 

nwdiver

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hybridkiller

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I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've wished for >200 miles of range in the last 3 years and 75k miles of road trips. When your drive way is your gas station and you can refuel for free while you eat lunch it's a whole new world. Those conveniences more than compensate for losing range that I rarely ever used.
I need 600+ miles in one day on a regular basis, so I think our situations/circumstances are considerably different. Maybe if/when Tesla's SC network is a bit more ubiquitous it won't be as much of a concern for me.

With so many people R&Ding battery technology (as that IMO is the key to widespread EV acceptance) I don't think I'll have long to wait.
 

nwdiver

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6-8 times a year - and it's usually closer to 600.
Too much trouble to take a 20 minute charge/lunch/stretch/bathroom break every 2 hours? I've driven my Tesla NM <=> WA six times... Supercharge breaks really aren't that onerous. It's usually lunch or dinner. 90% of the time the car is ready before I am.
 
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SuburbanTDI

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Wow, how often do you drive 500+ miles in a day? I don't think I'd want to do that in any car.
I'd say it's fairly common around here, I can't think of anyone I know that hasn't done it. We do it multiple times a year and I seem to recall hearing of a pilot based out of O'Hare and some firemen that do near that for their commute. I also used to do that nearly every weekend for a few years to go out to WV to mountain bike.

There are also more than a number of people around here that have second homes out at that distance.

It is decidedly not uncommon.
 
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hybridkiller

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Too much trouble to take a 20 minute charge/lunch/stretch/bathroom break every 2 hours? I've driven my Tesla NM <=> WA six times... Supercharge breaks really aren't that onerous.
It's already a ~10 hour trip, I'd rather not add another 1.5 hours to it.

Dude, trust me, I'm sufficiently anxious to be done with ICE vehicles forever. You're preachin' to the choir here. :D
 
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rte2MA

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I'd say it's fairly common around here, I can't think of anyone I know that hasn't done it. We do it multiple times a year and I seem to recall hearing of a pilot based out of O'Hare and some firemen that do near that for their commute.
There are also more than a number of people around here that have second homes out at that distance.
I did a 100-mile commute for 29 years. There's probably a thread here somewhere for commuting brags.
 

nwdiver

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It's already a ~10 hour trip, I'd rather not add another 1.5 hours to it.

Dude, trust me, I'm sufficiently anxious to be done with ICE vehicles forever. You're preachin' to the choir here. :D
You drive 10 hours with no stops? Hope I'm not anywhere near you at hour 9 ;)
 

S2000_guy

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Wow, how often do you drive 500+ miles in a day? I don't think I'd want to do that in any car.
...
And I don't think I'd want any car in which I wouldn't be comfortable doing 500+ miles in a day. Different strokes for different folks.
 

hybridkiller

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You drive 10 hours with no stops? Hope I'm not anywhere near you at hour 9 ;)
No, but I've looked at the Tesla map - on my usual routes I'd have to stop at every available station to make it comfortably - I typically make 2 stops totaling ~30 minutes now (9.5 hours actual drive time).

As I said, I'm already sold on the Model 3 price-wise, and IMO there's likely to be a major breakthrough in battery tech in the next couple of years so I'm confident this whole discussion will be moot by then.
 

nwdiver

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As I said, I'm already sold on the Model 3 price-wise, and IMO there's likely to be a major breakthrough in battery tech in the next couple of years so I'm confident this whole discussion will be moot by then.
Agreed... also ~3-4x more Superchargers.
 

SuburbanTDI

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hikertdi

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The comment is not aimed at an EV driver, but the fact the EPA's own data for NOx produced in the US at power plants and the typ EV car power consumption will exceed the 0.07g/mile standard. I should qualify that statement with when using the grid power to charge. The EPA can't possibly assume EVs are powered by non-grid sources. The EPA seems to be the cherry picker.

In the SW states, PV use is far more practical than for those of us that live in the NE.
 

nwdiver

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I used to make Wheeling, WV in 6 hours from Chicago, and once brought a Beetle TDI down to 24 mpg while darting out to Jackson Hole.
I don't roll like that now, but I don't see current technology capable of replacing the diesel for carrying capacity, comfort and cruise radius quite yet.
Why is a 30 minute lunch break in the middle of a 6 hour trip such a deal breaker?
The comment is not aimed at an EV driver, but the fact the EPA's own data for NOx produced in the US at power plants and the typ EV car power consumption will exceed the 0.07g/mile standard. I should qualify that statement with when using the grid power to charge. The EPA can't possibly assume EVs are powered by non-grid sources. The EPA seems to be the cherry picker.
In the SW states, PV use is far more practical than for those of us that live in the NE.
The point is that the problem is coal... not EVs... and that's a problem that's quickly being solved. Blaming EVs for a problem with coal (which is going away) is disingenuous at best. We have cheap and clean power readily available. Wind and Solar... which we are deploying FAR faster than we're adding EVs. Solar is outpacing EVs 10 fold. It would be insane to wait until solar kills coal before we start replacing our ICE fleet.
 
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S2000_guy

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Average US electrical rate is $0.10 per kWh. Model S uses 320Wh per mile (including charging losses). That is 3.2 cents per mile. Many states offer time of use pricing for EV so if you charge overnight when demand is lower the cost is half that (or less) which would be <2 cents per mile. At 2 cents per mile and current gas prices one would need 100mpg to have the same fuel costs.

There are a lot of challenges with EV but cost of power isn't one of them.
However, the electric car users are currently freeloading off the rest of us: they aren't paying road use taxes on their "fuel."

While I understand a government subsidy to help establish new technology, I fear that this will be like the production tax credit for wind and solar electricity: they've been suckling at the teat of the welfare state for 25 years.
 

nwdiver

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However, the electric car users are currently freeloading off the rest of us: they aren't paying road use taxes on their "fuel."
Agreed... EVs certainly need to pay for road maintenance. We could bundle an EV fee and a revenue neutral carbon tax. ;)
 

SuburbanTDI

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Why is a 30 minute lunch break in the middle of a 6 hour trip such a deal breaker?
The Tesla at speed has a range of less than an hour. At US style bursts between clusters you're probably looking at the same range albeit lower averages in the 90's. Add weight for gear and passengers, or worse a wind block of a roof rack and you might not even get an hour between regens.

This is not morning commute to the rail station typical, true, but it is not uncommon either here or for the autobahner zipping out of Frankfurt to hit the Swiss Alps for the weekend as I used to do.
 
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hybridkiller

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However, the electric car users are currently freeloading off the rest of us: they aren't paying road use taxes on their "fuel."
Fuel taxes haven't been sufficient to adequately cover road maintenance and improvements for some time now, and it's only getting worse - it's something that needs to be addressed by Congress. Don't hold your breath on that...

Congressional paralysis is not a good reason to ignore all the benefits of EVs, any more than the coal-fired power plant argument is.
 

nwdiver

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What specifics did you use? Worst case range is >150 miles. An 85D can easily make it 250 miles on a charge. Driving 70 vs 80 has a dramatic effect on range.

I'm not approaching this from a hypothetical position... I've actually put >75k miles on a Tesla. Do you have to make small adjustments vs an ICE? Sure... is anyone here honestly proposing that those small changes aren't worth the lives saved with lower NOx and CO2 emissions? Really?....... Really?
 

roflwaffle

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The Tesla at speed has a range of less than an hour. At US style bursts between clusters you're probably looking at the same range albeit lower averages in the 90's. Add weight for gear and passengers, or worse a wind block of a roof rack and you might not even get an hour between regens.

This is not morning commute to the rail station typical, true, but it is not uncommon either here or for the autobahner zipping out of Frankfurt to hit the Swiss Alps for the weekend as I used to do.
I doubt range will be the same at a 90mph average speed. The link's broken too. :D
 

SuburbanTDI

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LOL... ok... the range of a Tesla is >150 miles.... unless you're actively committing a felony or not in the US.

Speeding is not in and of itself a felony, there is no "felony speeding" that I'm aware of.

And yes, plenty of people average in the 90's - they just can't do that over the course of the day in a Tesla without stopping for a half hour every hour or so...if there's even a regen station.
 
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hybridkiller

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@nwdiver

You have an awesome car - but one that is way above most people's pay grade. And purchase price aside, I'm sure you'll agree it does not fit everyone's needs (anyone for whom a sedan just doesn't work). The range issue IS a deal-breaker for many, for some legitimately so. And some people are simply resistant to new things which are, for whatever reason, outside their comfort zone.

You will not change their minds - only time will do that.
 

nwdiver

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Speeding is not in and of itself a felony, there is no "felony speeding" that I'm aware of.
It's a judgment call for the officer. Wreckless driving can be a felony.

Yes... the Model S is outside the price range for most people... the Model 3 will not be. Give it ~3 years ;)

We've reached the technological limits of ICE. Even biofuels can't fix the NOx problem.
 

SuburbanTDI

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It's a judgment call for the officer. Wreckless driving can be a felony.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

And the reckless driving charge? It's a misdemeanor - and it needs to be earned either by conduct (weaving, tailgating, w/child) or conditions.
 

nwdiver

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Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

And the reckless driving charge? It's a misdemeanor - and it needs to be earned either by conduct (weaving, tailgating, w/child) or conditions.
You're right... it's one notch down... a class 1 misdemeanor.

Are.... are you really defending doing 90 on public roads? Seriously?
 

SuburbanTDI

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You're right... it's one notch down... a class 1 misdemeanor.
Are.... are you really defending doing 90 on public roads? Seriously?

I not only see others driving at or over 90 each and every time I am on an interstate, I do not see anything inherently wrong with those speeds. Nothing at all. I do not see a contradiction between safe driving in a well maintained vehicle with a disciplined driver and exceeding the posted limit be it 55 or 85.
 
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