Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

Status
Not open for further replies.

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
So?

The whole idea is to get everyone into the EV business. Can't wait to hear how cars get vandalized when left at public charging stations. Wind farm energy for free. Good one!

This shows a market segment that may get better with "free" solar panel generated energy:
https://www.livemint.com/opinion/on...at-if-you-can-t-resell-it-11596067119299.html
That's the great thing about an interconnected power grid. You can keep your car safely in your garage :)

And yeah... there already has been free wind energy in TX. A much energy as you could take off-peak. It would have been wasted anyway so why not just give it away.
 
Last edited:

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
That's the great thing about an interconnected power grid. You can keep your car safely in your garage :)

And yeah... there already has been free wind energy in TX. A much energy as you could take off-peak. It would have been wasted anyway so why not just give it away.
Free as in no upfront costs to support very expensive wind mills? Dunno.

The point is to make people of lesser means wish to get into the market, not give "free" expensive energy to well-heeled individuals and families. Its a mental experiment.
 
Last edited:

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
Free as in no upfront costs to support very expensive wind mills? Dunno.

The point is to make people of lesser means wish to get into the market, not give "free" expensive energy to well-heeled individuals and families. Its a mental experiment.
..... for the ~12th time..... 'free' as in it has no value if it's not used immediately. If you build a 100MW wind farm and demand from the farm is only 90MW at 2am but it's windy and you can generate 100MW why not send 10MW to EVs (or who ever else is able to shift demand to 2am) for free?

The point is the ensure people of lesser means don't suffer the negative effects of climate change that they are less able to cope with. It's simple economics; And don't delude yourself. No one of 'lesser' means is subsidizing EVs. They'll benefit the most just as with other subsidized technologies like solar.

Subsidies for solar PV cut the cost from ~$100/w in 1980 to <$0.30/w today (Economies of scale). This is having profound effects on people that have never had access to electricity. EVs will have a similar effect freeing people from the cost a negative effects of an addiction to fools fuel.

.... I'll repeat my question because I'm honestly confused as to where you're getting tripped up. Keep in mind that thanks to subsidies that drove development wind and solar are now the cheapest source of a kWh.

Where do you get lost in this simple logic path?

- We need to get more of our energy from wind and solar.
- We need storage to reduce wasting wind and solar during periods that supply > demand.
- EVs are storage.

Why not use EVs to help manage demand??????
 
Last edited:

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
Its not about you. Its not about getting more energy from wind and solar. Its just a simple mental experiment. Your grandiose thoughts should be put aside because we are just playing a game: get rid of EV subsidies and subsidize public charging from solar tech instead. One example of a benefit is that cheap used EV's will find a market among those that would never be able to get their own home EV charging station, even in Eunice.

I'm surprised you can't put together the same logic Elon Musk used to get Tesla on the map: "free" charging!

Simple can't describe it better.
 
Last edited:

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
Its not about getting more energy from wind and solar.
Ah... that's what you're missing. That's exactly what it IS about.

That and driving down the cost of new EVs (which also makes used EVs cheaper and more plentiful) in the same way the cost of wind and solar were driven down. SUBSIDIES! They work!

In 2000 a 5kW solar array cost ~$50k. So Tin Man in 2000 would have been pissed that someone got a 'rich persons toy' to put on their roof. But guess what... those subsidized $50k arrays 20 years ago lead to a 5kW array costing ~$15k today unsubsidized. Why not do the same with EVs?
 

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
Ah... that's what you're missing. That's exactly what it IS about.

That and driving down the cost of new EVs (which also makes used EVs cheaper and more plentiful) in the same way the cost of wind and solar were driven down. SUBSIDIES! They work!

In 2000 a 5kW solar array cost ~$50k. So Tin Man in 2000 would have been pissed that someone got a 'rich persons toy' to put on their roof. But guess what... those subsidized $50k arrays 20 years ago lead to a 5kW array costing ~$15k today unsubsidized. Why not do the same with EVs?
You take yourself too seriously. Breathe in, breathe out....
 

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
......we are just playing a game: get rid of EV subsidies and subsidize public charging from solar tech instead. One example of a benefit is that cheap used EV's will find a market among those that would never be able to get their own home EV charging station, even in Eunice.

I'm surprised you can't put together the same logic Elon Musk used to get Tesla on the map: "free" charging!

Simple can't describe it better.

Oh and the other point is subsidies can theoretically make EV's more expensive, so removing them can also, paradoxically, create a better market for EV's when the prices go down. But that might not happen since EV "penetration" is hovering around 2%, so maybe not....
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
You take yourself too seriously. Breathe in, breathe out....
LOL!... not taking you seriously at all... not sure how that would even be possible.

Just curious as to why you're so opposed to efficiency. Using a fleet of EVs to balance supply and demand is the perfect solution to the best problem to have. What's your solution to surplus wind and solar?
 

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
..... for the ~12th time..... 'free' as in it has no value if it's not used immediately. If you build a 100MW wind farm and demand from the farm is only 90MW at 2am but it's windy and you can generate 100MW why not send 10MW to EVs (or who ever else is able to shift demand to 2am) for free?

The point is the ensure people of lesser means don't suffer the negative effects of climate change that they are less able to cope with. It's simple economics; And don't delude yourself. No one of 'lesser' means is subsidizing EVs. They'll benefit the most just as with other subsidized technologies like solar.

Subsidies for solar PV cut the cost from ~$100/w in 1980 to <$0.30/w today (Economies of scale). This is having profound effects on people that have never had access to electricity. EVs will have a similar effect freeing people from the cost a negative effects of an addiction to fools fuel.

.... I'll repeat my question because I'm honestly confused as to where you're getting tripped up. Keep in mind that thanks to subsidies that drove development wind and solar are now the cheapest source of a kWh.

Where do you get lost in this simple logic path?

- We need to get more of our energy from wind and solar.
- We need storage to reduce wasting wind and solar during periods that supply > demand.
- EVs are storage.

Why not use EVs to help manage demand??????
I'm trying to, but you can't see the "simple logic path" I'm taking to increase EV use. Not that you care a whit, since obviously poor people will have their waterfront property under water and their basements flooded by all the storms, being displaced and needing to abandon their homes from climate change. Think of all the sunlight we are wasting by not having free solar charging stations! Let them eat cake instead.....
 

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
LOL!... not taking you seriously at all... not sure how that would even be possible.

Just curious as to why you're so opposed to efficiency. Using a fleet of EVs to balance supply and demand is the perfect solution to the best problem to have. What's your solution to surplus wind and solar?
I'm playing a mental game of 'what if' while you are looking for a "solution" to a different problem. I don't care a whit about "surplus electricity" if we have unlimited solar energy covering the entire landscape and thankfully cheaper solar tech.
 

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
Originally Posted by Tin Man
You take yourself too seriously. Breathe in, breathe out....

LOL!... not taking you seriously at all... not sure how that would even be possible.

Just curious as to why you're so opposed to efficiency. Using a fleet of EVs to balance supply and demand is the perfect solution to the best problem to have. What's your solution to surplus wind and solar?
You really think this is all about you. Sorry, but its not.
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
I'm playing a mental game of 'what if' while you are looking for a "solution" to a different problem. I don't care a whit about "surplus electricity" if we have unlimited solar energy covering the entire landscape and thankfully cheaper solar tech.
Yeah... you ignore a large part of the benefit... that's why you don't get it...

Under which scenario do you think another 200MW of wind/solar will be added? The one where curtailment is 5% or the one where it's 20%? More EVs mean more Solar/Wind which means cheaper electricity and cleaner air. It's one part of a larger solution. Try to keep up :)
 
Last edited:

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
This really isn't about you nwdiver. Live long and prosper.
.... you're the only one here even remotely suggesting it's about me ;) Sounds like you're the one that needs to get over themselves. I've got my EV and roof full of solar. Now I just want to lift the cloud of ignorance keeping OTHER people from reaping the same benefits I have. :)

~170,000 miles now with nary a cent wasted on fools fuel or an oil change. Doing what little I can to accelerate the day EVERYONE can enjoy this :D
 
Last edited:

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
Its still not about you.
Agreed :) ..... you're the only one that suggested it was....

It's about getting as many EVs out there as quickly as possible by making them cheaper with incentives so they can help buffer the grid => increasing the viability of renewables making everything cheaper and cleaner. win-win-win.

When are you getting YOUR EV? :D
 
Last edited:

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
ICE development in front of our own eyes!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNFeUlnBypk
.... from 6 years ago.... :rolleyes:

LOL! Just in the time since that video was released bragging about a 15% improvement in efficiency (what increase in cost?) the cost of an EV has declined >20% AND the efficiency has improved >20%.

The improvements in EV is actually kind of insane. My 2012 MS cost >$100k and gets ~90mpge. A 2020 MS costs $75k and gets 117mpge.... and has ~400 miles of range... and has autopilot... and faster charging etc, etc. No regrets. Cars like mine paved the way for the 2020s that are so much better and cheaper. As you said. Not about me... it's about getting everyone ELSE in an EV :)

Why do you keep chasing obsolete tech? Give it up... you can't beat thermodynamics. It's the law ;)
 
Last edited:

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
Check out the flurry of activity at Tesla's Austin site. The truck convoys are intense! Must be well over a hundred semis hauling back and forth.
https://youtu.be/fs5NhmHgX-I
When you're supply constrained you can't afford to delay :)

Can't wait for the CyberTruck. I know 3 people out here in W TX that are planning to get one. Gonna be interesting to see how the rough necks respond to an EV that can beat the pants off their Ferd-Fteenhundred :)
 
Last edited:

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I think we'll be surprised by how the roughneck crowd embraces the Cybertruck. There's something very masculine about the brutalism inspired design and heavy steel construction. Having them made in Texas won't hurt either. I don't expect everyone will love it- it definitely took some time to grow on me, but now I think it's awesome. It'll be a trip when there are thousands of them out on the roads.
 

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
.... from 6 years ago.... :rolleyes:
Yeah I guess "20 years" is another one of your exaggerations. Enjoy the 2.1% EV penetration while we can still afford even that. Let the peasants eat cake - no free solar electricity in public places for you!!!

Mazda is slowly electrifying but I would wager is still developing ICE's. The CNG/coal-fired EV's are still not emission free, but we shall see how the upcoming Covid-19 depression goes for affording expensive subsidized EV production.
 
Last edited:

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Mazda is slowly electrifying but I would wager is still developing ICE's. The CNG/coal-fired EV's are still not emission free, but we shall see how the upcoming Covid-19 depression goes for affording expensive subsidized EV production.
I feel bad for Mazda, they are late to the EV game and will have a lot of stranded assets in ICE development. Hopefully there isn't going to be a major economic depression due to the pandemic. I fully expect we'll see exponential growth in subsidies for renewable energy technologies starting in 2021. If not, I'm moving to Canada.
 

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
I feel bad for Mazda, they are late to the EV game and will have a lot of stranded assets in ICE development. Hopefully there isn't going to be a major economic depression due to the pandemic. I fully expect we'll see exponential growth in subsidies for renewable energy technologies starting in 2021. If not, I'm moving to Canada.
Ha ha. I love Alberta and the Canadian Rockies.
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
There are still good reasons to develop combustion engines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hatav_Rdnno
.... there's no good reason to keep building NEW ICE let alone wasting money on research...

Ground Transportation needs to get >70 mpg to be viable and that energy needs to have the ability to be sourced from wind, solar or nuclear. That's economically impossible because physics with a combustion engine.

The only area that combustion engines may even a tiny amount of sense is flight. Do you have a flying car?

The CNG/coal-fired EV's are still not emission free,
I agree it's terrible that any energy still comes from fools fuel. That's beyond pathetic for the year 2020. You know how we fix that? More wind and solar. You know what we need for more wind and solar? More load control. You know what can provide a lot of load control? Millions of EVs. Why are you so opposed to cheaper and cleaner energy?
 
Last edited:

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
The straw man cometh....
??? You've been posting complete nonsense for a while now....

.... you even posted a 'self-described' 'what-if'; 'What-if we didn't have transmission lines and we just provided solar powered charging in public areas for free' LOL! You're the king of the straw-man. Scare-crow would be a more fitting name for you than Tin Man :)

I'm playing a mental game of 'what if' while you are looking for a "solution" to a different problem. I don't care a whit about "surplus electricity" if we have unlimited solar energy covering the entire landscape and thankfully cheaper solar tech.
For the ~4th time... why are you so opposed to cars that can be powered by wind and solar? Why does this offend you so? In April CA threw out enough clean energy for >900,000 EVs and that number is gradually trending up as more renewables are added. Why do you think less waste would be bad?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top