Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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turbobrick240

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I think we've been swimming in misinformation for quite some time. :)

I don't need a special insurance policy to pull up to a gas pump and dispense potentially explosive, carcinogenic fuel. That's on the station owner. The way it should be.
 

bhtooefr

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So, yes, what I'm talking about is something that - in California (and IIRC a couple other states copied that) - landlords that supply parking are required to allow the tenant to install, at the tenant's expense, for the tenant's use, but that landlords are not required to supply.

It's not charging supplied by the landlord.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Don't think it's dangerous. And it's interesting, although pretty complex. And I can't help but wonder why a tenant with a one-year lease would go to the expense of installing a charging station. Seems it would be easier to use a public one: CA probably has more than any other state.
 

nicklockard

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The million dollar liability insurance is ridiculous. They should just require GFCI protection and inspection/installation by a certified electrician. I think the issue will mostly resolve itself as EV adoption grows exponentially and tenants demand the infrastructure.

We carry $1MM liability policy for our business. It costs $535/year. So it's really not THAT big of a deal. Let's not inflate things out of perspective.
 

turbobrick240

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A business is quite different than an individual tenant. Also, $500+ is not a trivial amount for many renters. In any case, the insurance isn't required if the charging station is UL certified (or certified by any of the roughly 20 nationally recognized testing laboratories) and installed by a licensed electrician.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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For the past two years my daughter rented a studio apartment in downtown LA while she was in law school. Rent with one parking space was just over $2K/month. One bedrooms in her building run $2,800 - $3,500. I don't think another $40 or $50 for insurance on a charging station will break many renters' budgets.
 

Tin Man

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For the past two years my daughter rented a studio apartment in downtown LA while she was in law school. Rent with one parking space was just over $2K/month. One bedrooms in her building run $2,800 - $3,500. I don't think another $40 or $50 for insurance on a charging station will break many renters' budgets.
Wow. How about the cost of a parking space in crowded expensive neighborhoods? Space that could have been converted into another studio apt. at $3K a month! But sure, if there's a space, why not get a charging station there at apt dwellers' expense.
 
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SilverGhost

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Before I started this last debate I was thinking more along the lines of several spots with charging available to tenants. Build them when the building is going up. May or may not tie them together with specific apartment units for close access.

Also tying the parking spot to the unit allows the cost to be part of the rent. Probably market it the same way hybrids commonly add some extra features to justify the added price.

I was not even thinking about installing in existing properties, thou maybe a tax credit to incentivize owners to add them as improvements would help.

Jason
 

kjclow

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For clarification, this is from the article linked by turbobrick:
Do Tenants Need to Carry Insurance to Install an EV Charging Station at a Rental Property?
Yes, California’s EV Charging Station Law requires tenants to obtain personal liability insurance coverage to cover property damage and personal injury caused by the EV charging station. Civil Code § 1947.6(h). With policy limits not to exceed ten times annual rent for the unit, the policy must remain in full force and effect so long as the EV charging station exists or until the tenant vacates. Id.

However, tenants do not need to obtain insurance if:

The EV charging station was certified by a nationally recognized testing laboratory, as approved by OSHA; and,
A licensed electrician performed the EV charging station and related electrical work.


Using IBW's example of $3000 a month for rent in LA. The liability insurance would max out at $360,000. Not needed at all if a licensed contrator does the install. I couldn't imagine doing a charging station install at an apartment myself anyway. Maybe in my house where I have a couple of unused 440 hookups.
 

turbobrick240

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For the past two years my daughter rented a studio apartment in downtown LA while she was in law school. Rent with one parking space was just over $2K/month. One bedrooms in her building run $2,800 - $3,500. I don't think another $40 or $50 for insurance on a charging station will break many renters' budgets.
Many could afford the extra expense, and for many it would be a burden. It really depends on the policy premium. $10-20 a month- not a big deal. I looked up the average 1 bedroom apt. rent out of curiosity and, unsurprisingly, it varies tremendously by region: California- $1700, Mass.-$2200, Ohio- $750, nationally-$1100. My asst. DA cousin in Manhattan paid north of $3k for her tiny one bedroom(before she married and started a family), while her sister rented a two bedroom house with a large lawn in Austin for $1100.
 

turbobrick240

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It is a fast growing city. I think her rent might have gone up to 1200 in 2018- the last year she rented that house. The property taxes on the place went through the roof in the last five years or so. The value was all in the lot- after the landlord sold it, the new owner gave away the house. It got jacked up and hauled off to somewhere on the outskirts of town. But I do think there are some good assistance programs in Austin for low income households. The new Mueller(the old airport)development comes to mind.
 

turbobrick240

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bwilson4web

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Hi,

I wanted to share my experimental tuning of a 2019 Std Rng Plus Model 3 to compensate for battery degradation. Widely reported, the first year is ~5% followed by a 1% loss every year. My battery is about 3-4% (not an easy metric) so I wanted to start a tuning effort to compensate for the initial loss.

My first effort is to replace the OEM rims and tires with lower weight rims and lower rolling drag tires. My particular car has a single, rear drive motor and ~50 kWh battery, 2/3ds the size of the other models. This means I can 'lighten up' on the tire loads because it is ~600 lbs (1,320 kg) lighter. Furthermore, I drive in "chill" mode, about 75% of the maximum, "standard" mode.

Using Consumer Reports claims:
  • Bridgestone EP422 Plus - low rolling resistance series
  • 235/45R18 -> 225/55R18 - narrow tread and lighter weight
  • lighter weight rims
Compared to the OEM rims and tires, each saves ~5 lbs (2.8 kg) times four tires. Unfortunately, the front has an overhanding, king pin support that forced the first two tires to be on the rear only. Regardless, the high wear rating means these tires should last at least 2-3x longer than the OEM.

An on-going experiment, the front tires have a low wear rating and a recent screw event meant the local tire shop would not repair it. The "Stop and Go" kit using a mushroom shaped plug failed so I reverted to 'sticky string' which so far, is doing OK.

I have three candidate, front tires and am leaning to lowest rolling resistance tire with modest wear rating. Since the front wheels are not powered, they should have an 'easy life'. We typically saw ~2x difference between the powered versus unpowered tires in our past Prius.

Source: https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/plug-tire-vs-road-hazard.15518/page-2#post-290660

Enjoy!

Bob Wilson
 

turbobrick240

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Nice work, Bob. Lightening the car is nearly free performance. BMW made the most of the skinny tire efficiency advantage in the i3. I'd replace that patched tire before any big trips. You wouldn't want to damage a rim(or worse) if the patch let go.
 

turbobrick240

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tikal

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What are your thoughts about Nissan Ariya?
Well, the more manufacturers bring EV vehicles beyond symbolism (compliant ones) the better. Also I would think that a three year old used Nissan Ariya will be very competitive price wise vs a similar sized gasoline one.

I really get a chuckle out of these headlines touting "such car is not a Tesla Killer" and so forth. Really? I do not think EV manufacturing can afford any kind of 'killing' right now or in the foreseeable future. What we need is for traditional manufacturers starting getting serious about EVs and bring prices down to like a 20% premium or less (vs a similar gasoline vehicle) to be able to noticeably increase the penetration of EVs in the US.
 

Tin Man

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I have a new thought experiment:

If EV's are such a great solution to climate change and the government is spending a lot of tax credits toward EV ownership, how would this work instead:

Government creates free EV charging stations. Instead of subsidizing expensive EV's directly, it would create a "run" on EV's given free electricity to charge them at publicly owned and operated charging locations. As a caveat, only 100% solar-powered stations would be created making it a no-brainer that nighttime charging would not occur for safety reasons.

What would be the advantages/disadvantages of such a plan?
 

turbobrick240

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What would be the safety reasons for no public charging at night? In my mind, that would be unsafe. I guess it might be more of a necessity if the chargers were solar powered without any grid connections or battery storage- but that would just be completely impractical.

I like the idea of subsidizing charging infrastructure, but I don't think that expenditure would be as effective at stimulating EV ownership as subsidizing the purchase of new EVs. Ideally, we would stop subsidizing fossil fuels and put that massive amount of funding into renewable energy infrastructure. It couldn't be done overnight, but let's say over a period of 4 years or so.
 

Tin Man

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What would be the safety reasons for no public charging at night? In my mind, that would be unsafe. I guess it might be more of a necessity if the chargers were solar powered without any grid connections or battery storage- but that would just be completely impractical.

I like the idea of subsidizing charging infrastructure, but I don't think that expenditure would be as effective at stimulating EV ownership as subsidizing the purchase of new EVs. Ideally, we would stop subsidizing fossil fuels and put that massive amount of funding into renewable energy infrastructure. It couldn't be done overnight, but let's say over a period of 4 years or so.
A while ago I looked into the ubiquitous statements of fossil fuel subsidies and found nothing except proposals to give oil companies tax breaks for environmentally safe and better procedures in their mining and distillation processes. Otherwise, "subsidies" is misused always as an excuse to limit the prosperous use of oil with little knowledge of what they really are.


In other words, there are no direct payments to oil companies as there are for EV's currently, which can be described as subsidies. This brings on the economic point that EV's are likely more expensive because of subsidies (see health care and college tuition). Giving away electricity would allow everyone to benefit, including used EV buyers from lesser means, in spite of all the virtue signaling coming from the well-to-do EV buyers.
 
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turbobrick240

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Conservative estimates put US direct subsidies to fossil fuel industry at $20 billion per year. In Europe, the figure is 55 billion euros per year. That funding would build a lot of renewable energy infrastructure.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesellsmoor/2019/06/15/united-states-spend-ten-times-more-on-fossil-fuel-subsidies-than-education/#6cade0854473


https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs

I heartily recommend that anyone who has investments in the fossil fuel sector get out while they still have value. It's a dying industry.
 
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nwdiver

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As a caveat, only 100% solar-powered stations would be created making it a no-brainer that nighttime charging would not occur for safety reasons.
What would be the advantages/disadvantages of such a plan?
.... you'd waste a lot of surplus wind energy. Wind curtailment generally occurs between midnight and 4am when demand is low but wind generation peaks.

Where do you get lost in this simple logic path?

- We need to get more of our energy from wind and solar.
- We need storage to reduce wasting wind and solar during periods that supply > demand.
- EVs are storage.

Would you prefer a battery that just sits there and only performs one purpose? Why not a battery that doubles as transportation?
 
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Tin Man

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.... you'd waste a lot of surplus wind energy. Wind curtailment generally occurs between midnight and 4am when demand is low but wind generation peaks.
So?

The whole idea is to get everyone into the EV business. Can't wait to hear how cars get vandalized when left at public charging stations. Wind farm energy for free. Good one!

This shows a market segment that may get better with "free" solar panel generated energy:
https://www.livemint.com/opinion/on...at-if-you-can-t-resell-it-11596067119299.html
 
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