Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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nwdiver

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations

All variations explained well here.

"Failed diffusion does not mean that the technology was adopted by no one. Rather, failed diffusion often refers to diffusion that does not reach or approach 100% adoption due to its own weaknesses, competition from other innovations, or simply a lack of awareness. From a social networks perspective, a failed diffusion might be widely adopted within certain clusters but fail to make an impact on more distantly related people. Networks that are over-connected might suffer from a rigidity that prevents the changes an innovation might bring, as well.[44][45] Sometimes, some innovations also fail as a result of lack of local involvement and community participation."

Mentioning home solar panels and costly EV vehicles as if its a possible or even future "norm" is quite arrogant, IMO. Out of reach and government subsidized are definite limitations, as well as lack of home ownership by the majority of the population.
Like I said. Look at the ACTUAL HISTORY of adoption. Also worth noting that adoption curves are getting more exponential. The internet was adopted ~4x faster than electricity.

Most people own their home. If you can afford electricity then you can afford to DIY some solar PV.
I helped a friend install 4.5kW on his roof last year. Cost ~$3500 BEFORE the tax credit. That's 8200kWh/yr. Driving an EV would use <4,000kWh/yr. A lot (all?) of your 'facts' are about ~15 years out of date.......

That's not 'arrogance' that's just explaining how things work....... I also sell ~70% of what I make back to the grid. Enough for ~3 more people to drive ~15k miles/yr. So.... if most home owners did what I've done (SUPER easy) then that's enough clean energy right there. Math. Not arrogance. Math. 'Math' isn't a synonym of 'arrogance' ;)
 
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Tin Man

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Eunice doesn't have a lot of apartments I guess. Real easy as in no upfront cost or worry about when to break even or even selling a house before you do. Nice.
 

turbobrick240

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If that's some sneaky way to try to get me signed up with Facebook, you failed again Zuckerberg! :)
 

ticaf

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Considering that YouTube and Facebook have been full on censoring videos spreading misinformation and otherwise lies, I'm wondering if they actually consider those posted by Tinman true.:rolleyes:
 

Tin Man

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Considering that YouTube and Facebook have been full on censoring videos spreading misinformation and otherwise lies, I'm wondering if they actually consider those posted by Tinman true.:rolleyes:
John Stossell is a well respected opinion journalist. You would need to know about him and his history of journalism. His description of the way oil integrates into the market is common knowledge that is inconvenient to activists.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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John Stossell is a well respected opinion journalist.
This is the guy who would lay in wait for sexual predators in victims' homes so he could engage them in embarrassing conversations. Just one of the many tabloid journalism stunts he would do for ratings. Well respected? I think not. When I saw his name I didn't click on the link.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Hey, they made fun of him on South Park. That has to count for something. I mean, once you've been parodied on one of the longest running most popular highest rated animated adult shows, you know you've got to be dealing with someone special. They don't do that for just anyone.

"ManBearPig is here, I am SO SERIAL!" :p
 

SilverGhost

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Considering that YouTube and Facebook have been full on censoring videos spreading misinformation and otherwise lies, I'm wondering if they actually consider those posted by Tinman true.:rolleyes:
That's it's own discussion there. The censorship from them seems to be a little lopsided. If I didn't have family spread around the globe or there was a better way to stay in touch/up to date with goings on, I wouldn't have anything to do with either company. Much like turbobrick240.

Jason

PS: I agree with IndigoBlueWagon - not many "well respected journalists" left anymore
 

SilverGhost

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Back on topic - there needs to be more pressure on developers and apartment owners to include charging capacity in their properties. Given the cost of home ownership and the push from certain "areas" to help low income people upgrade to low emissions (preferably BEV or PHEV) there needs to be more opportunities to recharge these vehicles. If we don't consider full life cycle and operational use, just getting a BEV into a low income owner's hands does no good. They will just "park it" and get a beater (possibly worse than the "dirty" car that the BEV replaced) to drive.

So maybe change building codes to align them with this and require certain amounts of renewable energy and charging infrastructure. Make it scaleable depending on property size and capacity.

Jason
 

bhtooefr

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Agreed fully.

California has laws requiring that apartment owners allow installation of charging infrastructure, but they can still require that an engineer study the installation and that the tenant hold a $1 million liability policy on the charging equipment, which massively inflates the costs.

Conversely, I believe some other nations are requiring that at least conduit be installed for charging infrastructure in all new construction.
 

Lightflyer1

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Agreed fully.
California has laws requiring that apartment owners allow installation of charging infrastructure, but they can still require that an engineer study the installation and that the tenant hold a $1 million liability policy on the charging equipment, which massively inflates the costs.
Sounds like more worthless laws. What good is it to allow apt renters to install if they have to pay an engineer and have a $1 million policy on it. What person in his right mind would do that?
 

turbobrick240

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The million dollar liability insurance is ridiculous. They should just require GFCI protection and inspection/installation by a certified electrician. I think the issue will mostly resolve itself as EV adoption grows exponentially and tenants demand the infrastructure.
 

kjclow

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Nope; History. Adoption curves are ~flat, then almost vertical to >90%.

???? I just drove ~70 miles and now all I need to recharge is ~4 hours of sunlight on my 800 sq ft roof. How..... explain to me how I drive a fools fuel powered POS 70 miles on ~4 hours sunlight hitting my roof......
That's referred to as a hocky stick curve. You get limited to no acceptance for a while and then it takes off. If we look back at least 100 years ago, this same discussion was taking place about petroleum powered vehciles replacing horses and oxen.

As for the use of solar panels to give you all the power you need, that's great that you have that option. Not everyone does and they will be the predominate buyers of vehicles for the foreseeable future. If you have $30k, which are you going to buy? Something that is easily refuelable at most corners or something that you have to search for to find a place to plug it in for several hours?
 

kjclow

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Back on topic - there needs to be more pressure on developers and apartment owners to include charging capacity in their properties. Given the cost of home ownership and the push from certain "areas" to help low income people upgrade to low emissions (preferably BEV or PHEV) there needs to be more opportunities to recharge these vehicles. If we don't consider full life cycle and operational use, just getting a BEV into a low income owner's hands does no good. They will just "park it" and get a beater (possibly worse than the "dirty" car that the BEV replaced) to drive.

So maybe change building codes to align them with this and require certain amounts of renewable energy and charging infrastructure. Make it scaleable depending on property size and capacity.

Jason
I like the ideas Jason but around here is more just building apartments that lower income earners can afford. Let alone adding the cost of transportation into an already inadequate income.
 

kjclow

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Sounds like more worthless laws. What good is it to allow apt renters to install if they have to pay an engineer and have a $1 million policy on it. What person in his right mind would do that?
The liability policy would be for the apartment building owner. Not saying that they won't pass on the expense to the renters, but each renter would probably not be responsible for their own charging unit.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I think the liability policy is sensible, especially in litigious happy California. Don't underestimate stupid.
 

Tin Man

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This is the guy who would lay in wait for sexual predators in victims' homes so he could engage them in embarrassing conversations. Just one of the many tabloid journalism stunts he would do for ratings. Well respected? I think not. When I saw his name I didn't click on the link.
Interesting. You have no idea.
 

GoFaster

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Agreed fully.

California has laws requiring that apartment owners allow installation of charging infrastructure, but they can still require that an engineer study the installation and that the tenant hold a $1 million liability policy on the charging equipment, which massively inflates the costs.
Whyyyy ...

If you are building a parking garage, there is nothing exotic about distribution panels, meters, conduits, switches, and outlets. Locally, an electrical installation like that would have to be inspected and certified, but so would the distribution circuits in the rest of the garage for the lighting, ventilation, etc.

A 240V 30A circuit built to code is ... a 240V 30A circuit built to code. It doesn't matter that someone is plugging an EV charger into it unless they're plugging in non-UL/CSA-approved crap ... but that risk exists for any other electrical outlet just the same.
 

Tin Man

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Can't wait to see how future (read: non-existent except in activist minds) higher density battery tech will be cooled and made safe in older EV's to prevent the fires that are occasionally seen (rarely) in a parking garage. Maybe the $1M liability policy is meant for this....
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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If you have the general public handling what most insurers (or lawyers) would call dangerously high voltage, anything can happen. The liability policy is prudent. It also shouldn't be expensive.
 

kjclow

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Whyyyy ...
If you are building a parking garage, there is nothing exotic about distribution panels, meters, conduits, switches, and outlets. Locally, an electrical installation like that would have to be inspected and certified, but so would the distribution circuits in the rest of the garage for the lighting, ventilation, etc.
A 240V 30A circuit built to code is ... a 240V 30A circuit built to code. It doesn't matter that someone is plugging an EV charger into it unless they're plugging in non-UL/CSA-approved crap ... but that risk exists for any other electrical outlet just the same.
I think the largest driver is the early fires that were blamed on the install of the charging panels in peoples' homes. No idea on actual causes since I'm not a fire inspector.
 

turbobrick240

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Insurance policies for the property owner make sense. I read bhtooefr's comment as the policies being the responsibility of the tenants.
 

bhtooefr

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The liability policy would be for the apartment building owner. Not saying that they won't pass on the expense to the renters, but each renter would probably not be responsible for their own charging unit.
Oh no, that crap is for the tenant.

The law requires the apartment owner to allow installation of EV equipment (the state before that law was passed was that the owner could tell the tenant to **** off and not charge at home at all), but the apartment owner can (isn't required to, but is allowed to) demand that the tenant pay for the engineer (not just electrician) and insurance. They could allow the tenant to just pay for an electrician to install it and for the county/city code inspector to inspect it without any specific insurance on the charging equipment, if they actually want to play nice, and if they want to play really nice, they could just do it all for the tenant.

Whyyyy ...
If you are building a parking garage, there is nothing exotic about distribution panels, meters, conduits, switches, and outlets. Locally, an electrical installation like that would have to be inspected and certified, but so would the distribution circuits in the rest of the garage for the lighting, ventilation, etc.
A 240V 30A circuit built to code is ... a 240V 30A circuit built to code. It doesn't matter that someone is plugging an EV charger into it unless they're plugging in non-UL/CSA-approved crap ... but that risk exists for any other electrical outlet just the same.
And those provisions aren't for installing charging infrastructure throughout parking garages, it's for getting charging to your own parking space on your own.
 

kjclow

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so then the liability policy would be implemented to cover everyone else's butts. That would also mean you would have to have dedicated parking spots for each apartment. I've never seen that work.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Dedicated parking spaces for apartments? Works all the time.

I thought we were talking about a charging station for all tenants to use. If it's for an individual tenant, I think the landlord is doing the tenent a favor for allowing it at all. There isn't anything in it for the landlord. I suspect most landlords would just say no.
 

turbobrick240

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I think we were initially talking about a law that requires landlords to allow tenants to install their own charging stations for their own parking spots. Ideally, most landlords will provide the infrastructure as demand increases. They aren't required to provide parking at all- but most people outside of dense urban areas aren't interested in renting an apt. with no parking.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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We're wading into a lot of misinformation and speculation here. Many if not most, municipalities require landlords offer some form of tenant parking. In Los Angeles, for example, apartment buildings are required to make off street parking available for tenants. They may charge extra for it, but they have to offer it. In LA it's also true for many commercial (i.e. office) buildings.
 
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