Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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Tin Man

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Teslas are to other EVs as VW TDIs were to the rest of the diesel car market in 2014.

Saying that it's hard to find charging now is like saying it's hard to find diesel fuel in 2000.
Yeah, only TDI's had access to all the diesel stations but not other diesels. U R SMRT smart.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I remember driving cross country in '79 in my Rabbit Diesel and was sure to have the Mercedes book of diesel stations (anyone else remember that)? Never needed it, even then.
 

fnjimmy!

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Yeah, only TDI's had access to all the diesel stations but not other diesels. U R SMRT smart.
Yeah, and the only place to charge an EV is at a charging station. :rolleyes:


Imagine how many times all those diesels would have to stop at a diesel station if they had a full tank every morning. When you charge your car where it's parked, public/third party charging is a novelty. Unless it's a little low-range city runabout/compliance car that isn't meant for long distance driving in the first place. Those folks live with the consequences of their choices but it's not the only use case.
 

compu_85

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Yeah, only TDI's had access to all the diesel stations but not other diesels. U R SMRT smart.
Yes, that's correct. Tesla has the largest, most complete, fastest, and easiest to use charging network in the USA, which other brands can not use.

Doing this trip in a Bolt would have been much more time consuming, and we wouldn't have been able to visit as many places easily.

Fun tibit: Half way down Pike's Peak, they make you stop so they can check your brake temprature. Ours were 72*F (we didn't need to use the friction brakes at all).

-J
 

El Dobro

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Teslas are to other EVs as VW TDIs were to the rest of the diesel car market in 2014.

Saying that it's hard to find charging now is like saying it's hard to find diesel fuel in 2000.
Back in '06, when I bought the Jetta, I was up in the hills of Va when I went to get some fuel. Surprise, none of the stations up there had nozzles that would fit the smaller neck VW decided to put on the car. I had to borrow a funnel to get fuel in the tank, to make it to the highway, so I could find a station with the smaller nozzle.
 

compu_85

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EVGo is doing OK building out their network:

With more than 1,100 fast chargers... in 66 metropolitan markets, EVgo’s network in 34 U.S. states allows EV drivers to travel further while providing exemplary service by maintaining and operating its charging stations
Tesla has 966 Supercharger locations in the USA, with about 8,500 charging stalls amongst them. With the stations that just opened in ND, they have chargers in 48 states. (Hawaii and Alaska coming soon)

Globally, there are almost 17,000 Supercharger stalls.

The EVGo chargers are not as easy to use as a Supercharger, you have to use a phone app (which means both the charging station and your phone need cell service) or an RFID card which takes them several months to mail to you.

-J
 

rotarykid

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I'm sorry but the fantasy view of the world where were and still are not using coal very much is BS I am less than a mile from a train track that has three full-length coal trains go both directions each day to power plants that Supply Power legit which to the tailpipe shifting of California needed Supply. ..
As long as that continues to go on on a daily basis the burning of this coal to Supply Power a large portion of that going to California's tailpipe shifting to my state ...
these EVs are not near as green as some people claim and they will not be until this coal burning is reduced / ended....
and we today have almost NO reasonable and reliable storage in my region. No real for the renewable sources that we have today, which most of the current renewables to produce minimal power at night so are useless at night without that storage, and this is what makes CA's tailpipe shifting to rest of west where I am less than clean to people breathing in my part of the west where coal & jet turbine far outnumber any storage options today!
FACT on the groud outside of the fantasy lands of CA, Until real wind & solar storage for use in off hours is put in place these EV's are and will remain far dirtier than are being claimed....
 
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AntonLargiader

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I'm sorry but the fantasy view of the world where were and still are not using coal very much is BS I am less than a mile from a train track that has three full-length coal trains go both directions each day to power plants that Supply Power legit which to the tailpipe shifting of California needed Supply. .
I used to live by railroad tracks, too, right in the piedmont where the trains took coal to Hampton Roads. So sure you're going to see the trains if you live by tracks. But the decline of coal production and consumption in the US is clear to see; it's about half of what it was at peak.

You might have to be a bit more coherent about your claims regarding California and their tailpipe-shifting to NC or elsewhere. This is probably longer than you want to read but it describes California's energy sources and how little of that is coal-sourced.

https://www.eia.gov/state/analysis.php?sid=CA
 

turbobrick240

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I wouldn't blame California for your state's filthy power generation. Write to your representatives and express your dissatisfaction with the ecologically awful coal burning that's happening there.

Incidentally, California has the second lowest per capita usage of residential electricity after Hawaii. And by far the greatest deployment of EVs per capita (and in total). Cali. is a great example of what a responsible energy policy can achieve.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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California has the second lowest per capita usage of residential electricity after Hawaii. And by far the greatest deployment of EVs per capita (and in total). Cali. is a great example of what a responsible energy policy can achieve.
And the benefits of a favorable climate.
 

bhtooefr

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EV's represent a dependence on home charging and centralized control of personal vehicle transport. Just like autonomous driving, they are hyped beyond reasonable recognition. Futurists create their own argument space and spew nonsense about a lot of things. History proves otherwise in many cases so "I don't know" is the correct answer most of the time. Childish memes about being happy or not are worthless when you don't know or don't care.
OK, if we're going to talk about dependence on home charging and centralized control, let's look at what it takes to get a diesel out of centralized control of charging. Let's assume you can buy any equipment you want, but you've gotta source your own consumables from your own land.

You need cropland that you can grow oil crops on. Let's use canola. You'll get 75-240 gallons of oil per acre. Let's assume 80% yield from the oil to the biodiesel, as that's consistent with the numbers I'm finding around. So, if you're doing 15,000 miles per year, and you're getting 36 MPG combined (yes I know, "diesels always beat EPA", but I'll use EPA for the 2017 Jaguar XE 2.0d anyway), at the low end of oil yield, you'll need 7 acres to get a year's worth of oil.

You'll also need harvesting equipment, which burns its own fuel, so you'll actually need more cropland than that.

You'll also need an alcohol. Let's use ethanol from corn, simply because that's gonna be a lot easier to get than methanol. You'll need about 328 galons of that, and that's about an acre of corn. And, of course, you'll need harvesting equipment and a still for that.

Oh, and you need some lye, which means time for the chloralkali process, so you need a source of salt. And you're emitting some chlorine gas as a byproduct, hope you have some way of dealing with that.

Finally, you can react the oil with the ethanol and lye, in a reactor, and then wash it, and you can now charge your diesel with your own resources. You are, however, very much tied to your farm, which has 8 acres of cropland just for the fuel your car needs, ignoring the fuel the harvesting and production processes need.

So, let's compare to a Model 3. I'll use the Standard Range Plus, the cheapest one you can order off the website. 24 kWh/100 mi, I'll assume 41 miles per day (that's the 15,000 miles divided by 365 days), so about 10 kWh recharge energy. If "Coastal Empire" is Savannah, GA, the PVWatts Calculator says that in the worst month, December, you'll generate 366 kWh, or about 11.8 kWh per day, with an average 4 kW solar setup. That 4 kW solar setup... if you use Tesla's current solar panels, would be 12 Tesla panels, which weigh 47.4 lbs - you could fit those in the car (admittedly, with a loss of efficiency, but you have some efficiency to give up, given that it's 11.8 kWh per day in the worst month, and you only need 10 kWh per day otherwise). Toss a frame to support the panels wherever you park, and the inverters, in the back seat, and you now have a charging solution that fits in the car and can recharge your daily usage. And, because it fits in the car, you're not tied to your acres upon acres of cropland and the reactors and the oil storage. Just set up the panels facing the sun, hook it all up, and plug in the EVSE.
 

kjclow

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Teslas are to other EVs as VW TDIs were to the rest of the diesel car market in 2014.

Saying that it's hard to find charging now is like saying it's hard to find diesel fuel in 2000.
I bought my first VW diesel in 2000. I can only think of one time I had issues finding diesel and that was northeastern Orlando in 2011. About a half dozen stations at the exit and only the last one had diesel. I also think I've only had two times on my JSW that the station didn't have the correct sized pump.
 

kjclow

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OK, if we're going to talk about dependence on home charging and centralized control, let's look at what it takes to get a diesel out of centralized control of charging. Let's assume you can buy any equipment you want, but you've gotta source your own consumables from your own land.
You need cropland that you can grow oil crops on. Let's use canola. You'll get 75-240 gallons of oil per acre. Let's assume 80% yield from the oil to the biodiesel, as that's consistent with the numbers I'm finding around. So, if you're doing 15,000 miles per year, and you're getting 36 MPG combined (yes I know, "diesels always beat EPA", but I'll use EPA for the 2017 Jaguar XE 2.0d anyway), at the low end of oil yield, you'll need 7 acres to get a year's worth of oil.
You'll also need harvesting equipment, which burns its own fuel, so you'll actually need more cropland than that.
You'll also need an alcohol. Let's use ethanol from corn, simply because that's gonna be a lot easier to get than methanol. You'll need about 328 galons of that, and that's about an acre of corn. And, of course, you'll need harvesting equipment and a still for that.
Oh, and you need some lye, which means time for the chloralkali process, so you need a source of salt. And you're emitting some chlorine gas as a byproduct, hope you have some way of dealing with that.
Finally, you can react the oil with the ethanol and lye, in a reactor, and then wash it, and you can now charge your diesel with your own resources. You are, however, very much tied to your farm, which has 8 acres of cropland just for the fuel your car needs, ignoring the fuel the harvesting and production processes need.
So, let's compare to a Model 3. I'll use the Standard Range Plus, the cheapest one you can order off the website. 24 kWh/100 mi, I'll assume 41 miles per day (that's the 15,000 miles divided by 365 days), so about 10 kWh recharge energy. If "Coastal Empire" is Savannah, GA, the PVWatts Calculator says that in the worst month, December, you'll generate 366 kWh, or about 11.8 kWh per day, with an average 4 kW solar setup. That 4 kW solar setup... if you use Tesla's current solar panels, would be 12 Tesla panels, which weigh 47.4 lbs - you could fit those in the car (admittedly, with a loss of efficiency, but you have some efficiency to give up, given that it's 11.8 kWh per day in the worst month, and you only need 10 kWh per day otherwise). Toss a frame to support the panels wherever you park, and the inverters, in the back seat, and you now have a charging solution that fits in the car and can recharge your daily usage. And, because it fits in the car, you're not tied to your acres upon acres of cropland and the reactors and the oil storage. Just set up the panels facing the sun, hook it all up, and plug in the EVSE.
And then, based on your numbers, you need to sit for the day in the Walmart parking lot while your panels develop that 10 kWh of electricty to charge your batteries. So I guess you only drive at night?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Toof, I know you were posting that with a smile on your face. But it does make a point. Even if you put panels on your house and purchased a powerwall(s) to store the power so you could charge the car at night or during cloudy days, it makes more sense than farming for fuel. And if you have net metering you don't even have to bother with the powerwall.

Perhaps the biggest obstacle EVs face is that most car buyers don't make rational decisions. I've been emailing back and forth with my brother over the past couple weeks while he was shopping for a replacement for his aging Volvo XC70, and it was interesting to see how people get lulled into a buying choice that isn't really what they want because the price is good, the vehicle has a feature they particularly like, or because it's easy and the car's available. He ended up with an Alltrack. I prodded him into it including finding one near him (he's in VA). He really likes the car, but was ready to buy a Tiguan because it was easy to find and dealers he talked to were unwilling to track down an Alltrack for him.

My point is that there may be a percentage of drivers who intend to purchase an EV, but end up with something else. The difficulties with Tesla not having dealers may hurt them, although apparently not that much. But if other manufacturers have few EVs available at dealers they may lose sales.
 

turbobrick240

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I think Tesla's sales model has been a distinct advantage since the pandemic took hold, if not before. Most people didn't like the interactions with salespeople to begin with. I, for one, am also a fan of the no haggling negotiations. When the other manufacturers start making compelling EVs is when Tesla will face competition.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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The few new cars I've purchased without driving them first have all been mistakes. Even though I like the purchase process conceptually, I'd never buy without driving. Not sure that's very easy with Tesla. The other parts of their process is appealing. Other than having inventory, dealers bring very little value to the purchase process.
 

Daemon64

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That's why I purchased through Carvana. Is their setup perfect? No. But honestly neither is buying w/ Tesla directly. Although they're a little different as one is buying new or used Tesla's and the other is only used whatever vehicles. My current 2015 Q5 TDI Premium Plus was w/ Carvana. But here's the thing.... I got the full carfax upfront, filled out everything and etc... Car was brought to me. I had 20 minutes to test drive and if anything didn't pan out, tell them to piss off. Then after you "accept" the vehicle you can drive it for 1 week, and 400 miles. You are encouraged to have your mechanic look it over, and if there are any issues that need to be fixed, you reach out to them and they will pay for it. At the end of the week you can decide to keep or get rid of the vehicle and they will work with you to find another. I bought this vehicle and a 2013 TDI Golf before this through them... good system, they have plenty of EVs as well...
 

Tin Man

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OK, if we're going to talk about dependence on home charging and centralized control, let's look at what it takes to get a diesel out of centralized control of charging. Let's assume you can buy any equipment you want, but you've gotta source your own consumables from your own land.

You need cropland that you can grow oil crops on. Let's use canola. You'll get 75-240 gallons of oil per acre. Let's assume 80% yield from the oil to the biodiesel, as that's consistent with the numbers I'm finding around. So, if you're doing 15,000 miles per year, and you're getting 36 MPG combined (yes I know, "diesels always beat EPA", but I'll use EPA for the 2017 Jaguar XE 2.0d anyway), at the low end of oil yield, you'll need 7 acres to get a year's worth of oil.

You'll also need harvesting equipment, which burns its own fuel, so you'll actually need more cropland than that.

You'll also need an alcohol. Let's use ethanol from corn, simply because that's gonna be a lot easier to get than methanol. You'll need about 328 galons of that, and that's about an acre of corn. And, of course, you'll need harvesting equipment and a still for that.

Oh, and you need some lye, which means time for the chloralkali process, so you need a source of salt. And you're emitting some chlorine gas as a byproduct, hope you have some way of dealing with that.

Finally, you can react the oil with the ethanol and lye, in a reactor, and then wash it, and you can now charge your diesel with your own resources. You are, however, very much tied to your farm, which has 8 acres of cropland just for the fuel your car needs, ignoring the fuel the harvesting and production processes need.

So, let's compare to a Model 3. I'll use the Standard Range Plus, the cheapest one you can order off the website. 24 kWh/100 mi, I'll assume 41 miles per day (that's the 15,000 miles divided by 365 days), so about 10 kWh recharge energy. If "Coastal Empire" is Savannah, GA, the PVWatts Calculator says that in the worst month, December, you'll generate 366 kWh, or about 11.8 kWh per day, with an average 4 kW solar setup. That 4 kW solar setup... if you use Tesla's current solar panels, would be 12 Tesla panels, which weigh 47.4 lbs - you could fit those in the car (admittedly, with a loss of efficiency, but you have some efficiency to give up, given that it's 11.8 kWh per day in the worst month, and you only need 10 kWh per day otherwise). Toss a frame to support the panels wherever you park, and the inverters, in the back seat, and you now have a charging solution that fits in the car and can recharge your daily usage. And, because it fits in the car, you're not tied to your acres upon acres of cropland and the reactors and the oil storage. Just set up the panels facing the sun, hook it all up, and plug in the EVSE.
So, uh, the solar panels are free of any return on investment worries for how many years? Diesel availability is better than electricity, which in my area can be turned off for days from power outages or hurricane effects. When the last hurricane came through it was about 5 days, while diesel was easy to find. But I can see why getting a glorified golf cart could suit many lifestyles, ha ha.
 

Tin Man

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If you have solar, why are you worried about a power outage?
No, I'm worried about investing in solar and waiting 6-8 years before breaking even compared to just buying off the grid which is the equivalent of getting diesel at a local station. Which is better?
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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This isn't a financial debate - There's no reasonable ROI for either scenario. Farming 10 acres has large overhead costs compared to just buying diesel. Similar with buying/installing/maintaining solar panels vs just buying from the local utility.
 

turbobrick240

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A typical ROI on solar PV is 7-8 years these days. That's assuming you're not lugging the panels around in your car and only using them part of the time. Haha. The roi can be as little as 3 years depending on things like electricity rates, incentives, shopping for a good price on the equipment, and owner installation.

https://www.energysage.com/solar/why-go-solar/earn-great-returns/
 

bhtooefr

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No, I'm worried about investing in solar and waiting 6-8 years before breaking even compared to just buying off the grid which is the equivalent of getting diesel at a local station. Which is better?
I thought you were worried about being tied to home and centralized infrastructure.

I was giving you the options that removed dependence on external infrastructure (and the EV one let you set up to charge wherever you want, unlike the diesel one that ties you to your homestead). ;)
 

Tin Man

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I thought you were worried about being tied to home and centralized infrastructure.

I was giving you the options that removed dependence on external infrastructure (and the EV one let you set up to charge wherever you want, unlike the diesel one that ties you to your homestead). ;)
No, I thought you were joking.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
The few new cars I've purchased without driving them first have all been mistakes. Even though I like the purchase process conceptually, I'd never buy without driving. Not sure that's very easy with Tesla. The other parts of their process is appealing. Other than having inventory, dealers bring very little value to the purchase process.
It is nice being able to drive so many different vehicles for my job. Because it does streamline a lot of that. Not that I am a "go out and buy a new car every couple years" kind of person. But every new car I have ever purchased, I had driven previously in some form or another.

Which is why certain kinds of events, not sanctioned or sponsored by any specific manufacturer, that allow people to experience certain types of vehicles, are always a neat idea. They just don't get held a lot. But many trade shows still do this sort of thing with their stuff, and of course an auto show is at least in some way headed towards that goal, even if you cannot actually drive anything (for the most part).

I attended (on topic) an EV one at the STL Science Center. But it had a pretty lame showing, of both attendees and cars. And much of it was just a gross display of how fast the Tesla could accelerate on their little test track for people that 99.999% of could not afford to buy anyway. :rolleyes: I did like the eSpark, though.
 

kjclow

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A typical ROI on solar PV is 7-8 years these days. That's assuming you're not lugging the panels around in your car and only using them part of the time. Haha. The roi can be as little as 3 years depending on things like electricity rates, incentives, shopping for a good price on the equipment, and owner installation.
https://www.energysage.com/solar/why-go-solar/earn-great-returns/
Based on my current utility rates and usage, my roi was in the 15+ years for solar. My house is well insulated and has a newer HVAC. HVAC system was upgraded from the bare minimum that the builder put in.
 

kjclow

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It is nice being able to drive so many different vehicles for my job. Because it does streamline a lot of that. Not that I am a "go out and buy a new car every couple years" kind of person. But every new car I have ever purchased, I had driven previously in some form or another.
Which is why certain kinds of events, not sanctioned or sponsored by any specific manufacturer, that allow people to experience certain types of vehicles, are always a neat idea. They just don't get held a lot. But many trade shows still do this sort of thing with their stuff, and of course an auto show is at least in some way headed towards that goal, even if you cannot actually drive anything (for the most part).
I attended (on topic) an EV one at the STL Science Center. But it had a pretty lame showing, of both attendees and cars. And much of it was just a gross display of how fast the Tesla could accelerate on their little test track for people that 99.999% of could not afford to buy anyway. :rolleyes: I did like the eSpark, though.
One of the things I like about my job is the travel and getting to rent different cars. The majority of my trips, I probably don't put on 50 miles, but then other trips I'm close to 1000 miles. When I'm not driving, I get to experience my co-workers choice of vehicle from the passenger seat. Also a good experience, since my wife drives about 30% of the time on road trips. All of that was what put the Texas Cadillac in my driveway about two years ago.
 

kjclow

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I think Tesla's sales model has been a distinct advantage since the pandemic took hold, if not before. Most people didn't like the interactions with salespeople to begin with. I, for one, am also a fan of the no haggling negotiations. When the other manufacturers start making compelling EVs is when Tesla will face competition.
I see a lot of the local dealers stepping up to that type of sales tactic. Do as much on line as possible and then they bring the car to you for the final test drive and paper signing.
 
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