Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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turbobrick240

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When the grid is down there's no need to sync frequency with it. Any legally installed PV setup tied to the grid will either shut down or island itself automatically when grid power is lost. Battery storage is helpful to act as a UPS due to the intermittent nature of sunshine.
 

turbobrick240

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If folks are making transcontinental trips in 50 hours and less, I'd say range anxiety is pretty overblown. At least for those with access to Tesla's ubiquitous (and expanding) supercharger network. I've done both methods of roadtripping- making fastest time, and enjoying the country at a more relaxed pace. The go, go, go method sucks.
 

Jetta_Pilot

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Similar to IndigoBlueWagons longish drive, twice a year I drive just under 4,700 km or 3,000 miles from home into Mexico and back.



I have done that drive once in 4 days but a normal trip is 4 1/2 days. Around noonish I stop for my main meal of the day and at that time fill the tank with Diesel.
I shudder to think how long such a trip would take if it were in an EV car.



It might be possible to recharge an EV in the USA but not a hope in hell to do so in Mexico. You might get lucky to find someone to let you plug into a 110volt outlet, but that apparently is a very slow long drawn out process. On an earlier trip I chose to drive across Canada and then south via Nevada. If I recall on that trip there were at least 2-3 areas where drivers are cautioned to make sure that their fuel is sufficient since there are NO filling stations for around 150 miles or 400 km.



Doesn't sound too appealing in an EV car!:eek:
 

nayr

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With ICE vehicles you can't just walk straight in and do that stuff; you need to pump/pay etc, then move the car, THEN you get time to go in and so forth. Traveling with a family a gas stop is a half hour thing no matter what. Plugging in and walking inside for 20~25 minutes (which can get you about 200 miles on the V3 supercharger depending on the SOC) is pretty much the same thing. Actually sit down with a sandwich, now you're getting 250+ miles.
If an extra five or ten minutes on long trips is so overwhelmingly dominant in your evaluation of an EV as your car, don't get one! Simple. People who want to eat on-the-go out of a cooler and pee into a bottle AND are likely to pony up the cost of a 1000-mile EV are probably so few and far between that I don't see the manufacturers making a big push to reach them. Placing fast chargers in the right spots is a way better solution.
Sounds like a solution for the fringe cases, but people are doing trips with what's out there now.

I've got 2 kids and never spent 20-25mins refuelling unless I had the dogs with me, and then I'm pulling a camper.. and going from a vehicle with >500 mile range, to one with 250 mile range, and then claiming an extra 5-10mins shows how bad at math you are.. You've already added an extra 20-30mins through your flawed logic you just conveniently glossed over.

More like every 450-500 miles I pump fuel and clean windows while my wife grabs some drinks and takes the kids to go to the bathroom, I might wait a couple mins longer than it takes to fill up but thats it.. we're out of there in less than 10mins, we got a whole day of driving to do and I'm not wasting 2h+ of it farting around some redneck ass towns in BFE trying not to get get seen by the LEO w/my colorado plates.. Your asking me to go from ~10mins every ~500 miles to nearly an hour, and then claim its just a couple more mins.

I also dont like being forced to stick to interstates, my last vacation of 1200 miles through the american south west I encountered ZERO charge points, but I only drove on an interstate for mebe 100 miles and the rest were lonely little highways where if you dont have >350mile range they gonna find your corpse stuck out in the desert.. I can carry an extra diesel can just incase I dont make it to a fuel stop, or AAA could bring me fuel if it was that dire.. what happens in an EV? a huge tow bill to get you back to a charge point or does road side assistance carry a supercharger now days?

Want EV's to become mainstream? Its gonna take better specs than an ICE for that to happen.. Fuchall if you think I'mna spend 2x as much money for half as much range.. til then anything I buy is gonna have an ICE in it so I never have to worry about range or charge or any of that crap.
 
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Tin Man

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LOL. Now I'm going to stop at highway fuel stops (mostly on interstates) to look for level 3 superchargers. Ain't seen any yet but haven't looked. Normally I don't stop too often, but I can see how I might if the GPS told me there's a nice charger next to a nice fast foodie place.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I haven't seen them either. Especially not on toll roads we have here in the Northeast, the chargers are off exits and beyond the tolls. I typically avoid refueling at toll road service areas because fuel prices are higher. But with a TDI that's easy, as at most I'd have to get off the highway once in a day to refuel.

However, hen I drive west from home near Boston my first fueling stop is usually at the first or second service area on the Ohio Turnpike. Right around 720 miles from start which I make with no problems, even in the dead of winter. TDIs spoil us.
 

turbobrick240

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It's easy not to see them if you're not really looking. Reminds me of my mothers concern that I wouldn't be able to find fuel when I bought my tdi. She never noticed that it's everywhere because she never needed to buy any.
 

nayr

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I just pulled up supercharger network for my last trip through Navajo nation, Northern rim of Grand Canyon and southern Utah.. there aint **** supercharger wise, only a couple hotels had charging, none were supercharging, and for customers only.. so $150 to refill the car.

yeah I'd be dead in the desert somewhere if I tried that in a Tesla.

On my trip to my parents there's a supercharger setup in Limon Co, hope you like Arby's cuz thats all you got in that one horse town.
 

GoFaster

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EVs are not all things to all people YET, and they don't have to be.

People doing thousands of km of constant driving without fuel stops are very much the exception rather than the rule.

Back before this annoying little virus, my driving was quite a bit higher than average (annually 40,000 km for daily driver and about 15,000 motorcycle hauling) and even at that, the Toronto-Windsor-Toronto haul was only happening about once a month. An EV with 300 km range would require two recharges, one with 400 km range would require one if it was in the right spot (near Windsor). EVEN IF that recharge was a longer stop than usual, I can deal with that happening once a month as the tradeoff for never normally using a filling station again (home charging).

The charging-network annoyances will improve with time as all of the charging networks (both Tesla and CCS) are built out.

Once upon a time, it was hard to find petrol, too.
 

nayr

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Once upon a time, it was hard to find petrol, too.
Yeah, cuz everyone was driving a big V8 that got 6mpg.. those trips out here in western US with such vehicles induced the same range anxiety because people could barely stretch between towns... range went up, that went away.. there's people living in the Western United States, and there's even more people that drive places than fly and even if thats 1% of their driving, they still purchase vehicles with that as a large consideration.

Go on every EV forum/subforum on every auto site and most conversations all revolve around range anxiety and some form of coping with it.. and thats from the people willing to buy em today.

Not being able to go to Grandma's funeral because you didnt have the money to fly or a vehicle able to drive there is gonna make yeh regret buying the darn thing.. My grandpa died a few months after I bought my first TDI, being able to drive >1k miles from Denver to Laredo with one stop for fuel each way at the drop of a hat and without much money in my bank is what drove my next few diesel purchases.. and with this in mind is why I'd never be willing to accept an EV that's not got a gas tank or incredible range.. Spending all that money on a expensive electric vehicle that's gonna be as useful and reliable as a cheap unreliable POS beater you cant take on trips either isnt what most people are looking for.. I started buying newer vehicles just so I could travel w/out any headaches or stress or surprises.
 
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Mcgink

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Soo, totally have been following this thread a little. More interested in models,driveabiliy,features,and range than the whole grid/environment and if it. Thinking that hybrid is a good training wheels start into it. 6 Kia top trims for around 12K. 80 mile range would give me Anxiety before I even backed out of my driveway. The BMW with the range extender $21K locally might work so long as if I put the 2 gallons of gasoline in the tank it would motor on .
 

El Dobro

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July 9th will make it 6 years since I bought my Volt and I couldn't be happier with a car. The car is currently running at 78% EV, and would be higher if I wasn't using my Spark EV so much for all the local running around. Even though the gas recommendation is premium, I've had it as high as nearly 49 mpg on highway trips, so I can't complain. Unless something happens to it, I plan on keeping both cars for a long time.
 

Mcgink

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The plug in Ford's (as much as I like the Ford BCM),the plug in (same as Kia/Hyundai) only offer around 30miles on all electric. Hardly worth the entry price premium IMO
 

AntonLargiader

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Soo, totally have been following this thread a little. More interested in models,driveabiliy,features,and range than the whole grid/environment and if it. Thinking that hybrid is a good training wheels start into it. 6 Kia top trims for around 12K. 80 mile range would give me Anxiety before I even backed out of my driveway. The BMW with the range extender $21K locally might work so long as if I put the 2 gallons of gasoline in the tank it would motor on .
The BMW will motor on when you put gas in it. It doesn't go with the zip that it has when the batteries are charged, but it goes. And you can probably (I haven't kept up with it) flash the software to get more gas range, if it's one of the older 80-mile cars.

Having a gas motor along is nice for what you describe. You may find that you hardly ever need it. I felt the same way about range, but when we started driving the Volt (with only 40 miles) we learned that it wasn't really a big limitation after all.
 

Mcgink

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K, while I'm at it on Solar Panels. I've seen a local ginormous array on an outbuilding that's not even visible from the home.
 

AntonLargiader

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7 hours? You can keep it! 250 miles on the Interstate system for me is closer to 3, and *zero* need to stop . . .
Watching the video greatly helps with the understanding! It's not an interstate burn. Apple and Google say 6.5 and 6 hours respectively for that trip.

His route looked pretty much like the recommended one, but I didn't study it. One of the comments indicated it might not have been the route that the Tesla software chose.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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K, while I'm at it on Solar Panels. I've seen a local ginormous array on an outbuilding that's not even visible from the home.
My array faces my neighbors. Not really noticeable to them because the roof is pretty high and close to the property line, but no evidence of it from my house or yard. Best of both worlds.
 

GoFaster

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The plug in Ford's (as much as I like the Ford BCM),the plug in (same as Kia/Hyundai) only offer around 30miles on all electric. Hardly worth the entry price premium IMO
That covers the daily commute, or most of it, for a lot of people. Or the trip to the grocery store and back, or the trip to church and back, or running the kids to hockey and back. It ends up being enough to cover most of the daily running around for most people - and that was the whole idea.

There's a reason these plug-in hybrids were chosen with the battery capacity that they have.
 

Daemon64

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I'd comment that the Q5 PHEV is a fairly no compromise vehicle. It can do up to 20 miles on a charge before kicking into the gas motor. It is faster than an SQ5 to 60, and it averages when in gas mode the same as my Q5 TDI 27 mpg. It is 200 lbs heavier than my Q5 TDI. So it does interest me, but not enough to get rid of my diesel. The trick is to option it without the panoramic roof --> there are multiple sources out there that show that as 200 lbs weight savings when removed. So it would weigh the same, and be sub 5s 0-60 because of weight reduction. And one would think that that would have an effect on MPG and range as well.

I do like 10 mile commutes and local trips often enough that I wouldn't mind at all. Combined is like 362HP & 369 lbs of TQ.... ABT has tuned the gas motor to bring that up to combined 419HP & 405TQ... ok diesel level of TQ and good HP....

I'd like to see the weight come down some and make an SQ5 version( I'm a sports oriented guy, but i found out the hard way a long time ago, if a car has less than 39.3" of front headroom i don't fit...ANNOYING... Current S5 doesn't work, or anything audi besides the damned SUV's their like 37.7 now... the 2018 / 2019 B9 does work in the A5, S5 sportsback( Somehow i did just barely fit in the e-golf w/ 38.4" but that had no sunroof, and i would hit my head on the side of the roof easily ... not really safe for me in any time of accident ) and we have a possible option here... especially a Diesel.

I guess my point is with the PHEV Audi is getting dangerously close to being able to pull me out of my Q5... not quite but very close. It also meets my commuting needs. I'd like for the battery to get up to 40 miles and then it will meet her commuting needs as well. Unfortunately i cannot find any numbers anywhere on its highway MPG

The thing about it that makes me raise my eyebrow a bit is that the European SQ5 MHEV TDI w/ the 3.0 gets better mileage than that in US MPG.

One would have to wonder what they could do if they paired this electric drivetrain w/ the 2.0 TDI w/ the double SCR which basically eliminates NOX completely. 231 BHP & 369 lbs --> 0-60 6.4s US Fuel Economy 34.59 mpg - 40.55 mpg( combined is 37.94 ) and it meets full Euro 6 standards which has way stricter emissions than california. Pair that w/ the hybrid drive train, and you could be looking at stupid fuel economy and power..... i'd be interested... hahaha but thats just me. ( Grams / mile - this is the worst number possible 262 ---- For refrence my Q5 is 384 ). This doesn't include hybrid efficiencies, power, cycle reduction, etc... etc.... Which would bring that number way down, and bring the average way up for an suv. ( Reference: https://www.auto-data.net/en/audi-q5-ii-45-tdi-231hp-quattro-tiptronic-36498 )
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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My understanding is vehicles like the Q5 and Porsche Cayenne with electric-only modes are in part designed so they can operate in Euro city centers where ICE engines are prohibited or taxed when entering.
 

Daemon64

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Interesting. I know they have PHEV here now as well but in a gasoline variant ofcourse. Its not a bad options IMHO compared to the current gen normal Q5. You get better MPG no matter.

I was mostly rambling a bit like I tend to do. I could get behind the PHEV 2.0 TDI if it comes out like my extrapolation, and would be down to get one... But the likeliness of VAG ever bringing diesels back to the USA is probably 0... unfortunately...
 

PB_NB

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Our work has a small BMW i3 with the REX and it will last for 1.5 to 2 trips (about 60 to 80 miles) to our work sites between charges. It has a backup generator that take 8.5 L of premium and that will allow the car to run at highway speed for about 60 to 70 miles. So the car has a range of 150 miles with the batteries charged and the little tank full. It is an older one, but was such a good deal at the time, and with the fuel savings, the car will be paid for in 4 years. (halfway through that now).

There are some owners have done 1,000 miles plus trips by stopping and topping up the little tank or carrying a 2 gallon gerry can and timing that with quick charge stations.

We have never had a distance problem with ours but haven't used it for long road trips. It is a service vehicle and we travel into the city and out, parking is never an issue as it fits in any spot. A level 2 charger is at the office so it gets plugged in at the end of the day and is ready to go after 2 or 3 hours on the charger.
 

gmcjetpilot

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I love my 2010 Jetta Sportwagen TDI (bought 2011 CPO $20K ( - $6K gifts from VW Diesel-gate) I have owned it for 8.5 years.

I love my 2015 Nissan LEAF SV (bought used from Auction, 3 years old previously leased LEAF for $12K). I have owned it for 3.5

The VW has 115K miles and is in great shape, drives and handles like a dream. Another 10 years of ownership planned.

The LEAF is a great 2nd car for errands. Having a second car is a luxury and insurance and tabs are not free. However it is a joy and the TDI does not like short drives and on and off on and off. The LEAF loves it. DOWN SIDE is the 5.5 year battery with 30K miles has lost 20% range, about 80 miles now. Another 20% will make it marginally usable but still OK for local errands and commuting. I could sell it for $8K and take my loss. I might look for a cheap Chevy Bolt... they have liquid cooled battery pack which should live longer. They also have longer range....

I see Ford has a Tesla Model 3 killer is coming out.... (it looks like a Model 3). Ford has the dealer network that Tesla does not.... There are so many things that make me NEVER want to buy a Telsa. No dealers, proprietary expensive parts, the fact they can kill your car remotely or stop supporting it or giving you access to the charging stations. FREE LIFE TIME CHARGING IS OVER... Even if you get a Legacy car with free charge and autopilot associated with that VIN, Tesla will kill it and make you the next owner pay for it again.

So how do I like the EV. Well I have a level 2 charger (220V x 22 amps = 4.8 KWh). My car has up to 6.8Kw charger and the fast DC charging option I bought it used and installed charger myself. I can charge from 20% to 80% in about 1.5 to 2 hours.* The last 20% takes about as long. I never have to go to the gas station. It is quiet. I pay $0.10 cents a KW from local utility. So if do a typical partial charge, put in 15KwH into my battery, that is $1.50 to go about 60-67 miles. LEAF gets 4.0 to 4.5 Miles/kW typically. You can hypermile and get more thatn 4.5 mi/Kw. The fun part is NEVER having to go to a gas station. My charger is on the wall of my garage.... FREE Charging? Local park has covered parking area with chargers for free. All Nissan dealers have free charging including Fast DC charging (about 12 min to go from 30% to 80%). Never tried to go after hours but guessing some may not be accessible except during normal business hours.

It is cool but sometimes I need to hop in my VW and do 450-700 miles in one day.... EV sucks for that. Yes you could do with an extream range Tesla but it will be slower and a Tesla is way more money ($80K or more).

* (You can get by with Level 1 110V charger it comes with, but it will take 4 times as long to charge . So you need to remember to plug it the night before. 8 hours will not get you a full charge since it is only about 110V x 15A = 1.65 KWh but it is just a regular 110 outlet. In theory from zero to 100% could take over 12 hours. So to own one plane on $1000 for a charging station.... installed. I bought a $400 unit used for $200 and installed it my self with about $30 in parts to get 220V connection.)
 
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turbobrick240

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The Model S and X still come with free lifetime Supercharging for the original owners. It's only natural that they phase that incentive out. It was meant to entice folks into making the leap into an EV. Now that EVs are mainstream, that is no longer necessary. Imagine how sustainable a "free gas/diesel" business model would be. Supercharging is fantastic, but probably doesn't get used all that much on average. It would be interesting to see what that average amount is. I'd be surprised if it's much more than $100 per annum.
 

Tin Man

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Sense of fairness? No, not so much...


It would be different if the "free" charging not being transferred to the new owners was made clear at initial sale. What really burns is the removal of paid-for options like the gimmicky self-driving $5,000 option....
 
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turbobrick240

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As far as I know all used (excluding salvage title) Teslas come with the base Autopilot feature. It's the Enhanced autopilot that is disabled on cars Tesla buy back as trade-ins. Cars sold privately or through non Tesla dealers keep the Enhanced autopilot if so equipped.
 

AntonLargiader

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I'd be surprised if it's much more than $100 per annum.

I asked my FIL if they had a way to track their free supercharging, and he didn't know of one. This year it's been very low (200 miles total) but in the past when they've driven XC it's definitely been higher. I bet it varies wildly from one owner to the next. The taxi drivers who are using the superchargers definitely swing the average a bit.
 

kjclow

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If I were Tesla and offering free supercharging, I would sure have a way of tracking you uses it and how often. I'm sure there is software set up for tracking. It also would not surprise me that the owners know nothing about that tracking.
 
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