Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

Status
Not open for further replies.

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Initial cost with installation was about $16,000, less a $2000 state rebate and $8,000 federal income tax credit, which I was able to use. Maintenance costs have been zero. Saved electric costs plus carbon credit credit payments paid off the system cost in less than 4 years. So for the past 2-3 years I've had free electricity plus $1,000 - $1400 in carbon credit sales income. Expected overall life of the system approaches 20 years.
 

ericy

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2004
Location
Rehoboth Beach, DE
TDI
2015 Golf TDI (wife's car)
Water heater, electric. Well pump, electric. My wife is a great cook... all with electric, although I do occasionally use the Weber outside.

That's more like us. Winter is when our electric bill is the largest due to electric heat. During the summer the late spring we generate a ton from the solar and don't consume that much. It is kind of a wash in the summer when the AC is running, and finally late in the fall the days are shorter and we use up the solar credits that we accumulated in the previous months.
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
ROI in SE Texas not looking good right now

Initial cost with installation was about $16,000, less a $2000 state rebate and $8,000 federal income tax credit, which I was able to use. Maintenance costs have been zero. Saved electric costs plus carbon credit credit payments paid off the system cost in less than 4 years. So for the past 2-3 years I've had free electricity plus $1,000 - $1400 in carbon credit sales income. Expected overall life of the system approaches 20 years.
Thanks for sharing all these detailed information. I beleive you got a really good deal here with the laws in your state.

I suspect that there are many variables at play here, and for for some of us in less friendly renewable conditions/laws states (such as Texas), the ROI is going to look long and painful :-(

Here on our house of 2100 sq ft we installed Argon filled double pane windows some years ago and in 2018 we replaced our whole AC system with the Bosch Inverter Ducted Split Air Source Heat Pump giving us an estimated real SEER of approximately 17.5 SEER (five ton system). Also, with the so called "electrical company deregulation" in Texas, we decided to sign up with a company that we pay $5 a month and they take care of choosing for us the lowest seasonal retail electrical rate (sometimes you feel like you need to be a lawyer to read the find print of these electrical companies offers!).

Bottom line, with four people, and electrical feeding the AC (set to around 77 F and used mostly from May to mid-October), washer/dryer, dishwasher, lights (mostly LEDs), computers (several in the house running from time to time), our average electrical bill per month is around $60/month (it could be a little bit lower but I have rounded it up).

With these conditions, and based on my recent research (Costco and other sources), the ROI of a suitable solar panels system could be at least 20 years! This of course can change with future lower cost technologies. We shall see.
 

SilverGhost

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Location
Back in So Flo - St Lucie
TDI
'05 Golf - totaled :(, wife's '13 Beetle - buy back, TDIless
I'm all about saving the "negawatts". We have the double pane windows, but for the hurricane impact rating more than the heat rejection. Besides, the builder did such a sloppy job - we can see daylight under the front door and can poke finger through a gap on rear slider.

I just went into the attic to look at hooking something up and sat amazed at the stupid. Several sections of the truss work looked like they changed their minds mid build. Also I can see the joists even with blown in insulation - can't be more than 2-3" there.

I'm going to be spending the next few years "fixing" all the crap so we don't bleed power and HVAC costs. First maybe solar as that would shade some of the roof and tax incentive winds down next couple years.

Jason
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
TOTAL home energy cost

Just to follow up on my previous post and regarding what Brian said about our TOTAL home energy cost. I did an average of my last 13 months of natural gas payments and it came out to $36. So in this way my total home energy bill is a around $96/month ($60/electric +$36/natural gas).

Oh, I do have also one of those fans in the attic attached to a thermostat to suck out the hot air in the summer when in the attic gets above 90 F (right now probably).
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Our total energy usage is averages $160 (gas and electric). That's higher than it has been becasue we had both girls and families living with us for the last year. Should drop at least 25% now that their are out of the house again. The solar salesman siad that we really needed to be around $200-225 to save enough with only ten panels.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The number of people living inside the house as well as lifestyle choices makes a HUGE impact on your home energy use, for sure.

Some of it is avoidable, some really isn't.

I remember when I first moved out, and a friend of mine was able to purchase a tiny house from some money that he got when he turned 18 from a trust left by his father's passing when he was a child. Of course it was only a down payment, but to help with his mortgage he let me move in and rent the second bedroom. We both worked two jobs, we were both car geeks, and we both spent much of our home time in the house's detached giant garage working on things. We rarely cooked anything, and we never bothered to turn the A/C in the house on. I don't think we saw an electric bill much over $50 the entire time I lived there. And most of that was likely due to the air compressor running outside. :)
 
Last edited:

Jetta SS

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2006
Location
Grand Bay, AL
TDI
'98 Jetta
I envy you guys with the cheap bills.

I've got a 3600 sq ft house with a 1000 sq ft MIL suite and a pool, all electric 5 occupants. In the summer my bill is around $460. Fall, winter, spring I'm around $260

I'm going to look into solar, then maybe selling.... this and the property taxes keep going up while my pay goes down.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Speaking of heat pumps, Tesla's Model Y finally has one. It should make a considerable improvement to cold weather range. Hopefully they will be fitted in all of the models soon. It must be a pretty special heat pump based on the praise Elon was heaping on the design team.
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
I'm all about saving the "negawatts". We have the double pane windows, but for the hurricane impact rating more than the heat rejection. Besides, the builder did such a sloppy job - we can see daylight under the front door and can poke finger through a gap on rear slider.

I just went into the attic to look at hooking something up and sat amazed at the stupid. Several sections of the truss work looked like they changed their minds mid build. Also I can see the joists even with blown in insulation - can't be more than 2-3" there.

I'm going to be spending the next few years "fixing" all the crap so we don't bleed power and HVAC costs. First maybe solar as that would shade some of the roof and tax incentive winds down next couple years.

Jason
We looked into the so called "triple pane" windows to protect in the event of a category three hurricane (or a strong 2) and it was out of our price range :eek:
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I envy you guys with the cheap bills.

I've got a 3600 sq ft house with a 1000 sq ft MIL suite and a pool, all electric 5 occupants. In the summer my bill is around $460. Fall, winter, spring I'm around $260

I'm going to look into solar, then maybe selling.... this and the property taxes keep going up while my pay goes down.
My heating bills are crazy expensive. I don't use the heat in the house much, but my 88 year old mother keeps her suite at right around 80. :eek: The only good news is that she doesn't use the A/C much. :D
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
My mother spent $6k on heating oil one winter a few years back when oil prices spiked. That was heating a quite large colonial built around 1760. She sold the house not long after mainly because of the heating and maintenance costs.
 

BeetlePD

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Location
Santa Ana CA
TDI
Beetle 2005
Only if the Model S is using grid mix... which most of them do not do most of the time)
Not sure where you got that idea. Many Tesla owners do Not have solar roofs so they are charging off the fossil fueled grid.

Even the superchargers only have enough solar power to charge 4 cars...... cars 5, 6, 7, etc are grid powered. Solar panels don’t produce as much power as people believe. Maybe 1/5th what a typical house plus EV uses (the rest is grid)

.
 

where2

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 1999
Location
North Palm Beach, FL, USA
TDI
One '13 JSW_TDI & One '04 Variant_TDI
Off grid real estate is amazingly cheap around here. I feel like that will be changing soon as more people realize that they can be comfortable off the grid without tremendous expense. Net metering is definitely great for encouraging the adoption of renewable energy. Our last blowhard governor did everything he could to discourage clean energy- including scrapping net metering. I was stoked when the current governor reinstituted net metering very quickly after taking office. I say vote the bums out if your local politicians have an anti-renewable agenda.
ON-Grid was cheap during the last "great recession". My wife's from "The County". :) I appreciate the fact that your current governor reversed the previous governor's scrapping of Net Metering. We've got a 4.6kW array destined for our property in Emera territory. When my wife inquired what Emera wanted to know before we install PV, they basically said: Show us a diagram of how it all works. (I did an NEC compliance diagram for my 4.4kW, the 4.6kW is nearly the same diagram, I can probably handle that). It was like a dream come true when they installed fiber optic internet going past our farm for $60/mo. (Wish I had fiber in the suburbs in South Florida!) I pay more for cable internet with slower speeds in FL... :rolleyes:
Many Tesla owners do Not have solar roofs so they are charging off the fossil fueled grid. ...Solar panels don’t produce as much power as people believe. Maybe 1/5th what a typical house plus EV uses (the rest is grid)
Honestly, that depends on how far you drive each month. I bought an e-Golf because my commute had gotten so short it was murder on the TDI engine. I'm averaging ~500 miles per month in my e-Golf. That would require 4 south facing 280W PV panels. I've got 4.4kW on the roof (installed in 2013), so I have a baseline knowledge of what my 220W panels will produce. Each of my 220W panels collects enough sunshine to drive 3.25 miles per day. (conservatively speaking, when averaged over an entire year!).
We looked into the so called "triple pane" windows to protect in the event of a category three hurricane (or a strong 2) and it was out of our price range :eek:
Price them again in a few weeks after the dust starts to settle from the current pandemic. My wife and I went with a Low-E (+argon) setup in our hurricane impact windows back in 2010 when the economy was in the dumps, and eager contractors could be easily found. We also insulated and weather sealed "this old house" which helps more than most people think.
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
dont know how i stumbled into this giant mess of a thread but i got my popcorn right here
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
ON-Grid was cheap during the last "great recession". My wife's from "The County". :) I appreciate the fact that your current governor reversed the previous governor's scrapping of Net Metering. We've got a 4.6kW array destined for our property in Emera territory. When my wife inquired what Emera wanted to know before we install PV, they basically said: Show us a diagram of how it all works. (I did an NEC compliance diagram for my 4.4kW, the 4.6kW is nearly the same diagram, I can probably handle that). It was like a dream come true when they installed fiber optic internet going past our farm for $60/mo. (Wish I had fiber in the suburbs in South Florida!) I pay more for cable internet with slower speeds in FL... :rolleyes:
Honestly, that depends on how far you drive each month. I bought an e-Golf because my commute had gotten so short it was murder on the TDI engine. I'm averaging ~500 miles per month in my e-Golf. That would require 4 south facing 280W PV panels. I've got 4.4kW on the roof (installed in 2013), so I have a baseline knowledge of what my 220W panels will produce. Each of my 220W panels collects enough sunshine to drive 3.25 miles per day. (conservatively speaking, when averaged over an entire year!).
Price them again in a few weeks after the dust starts to settle from the current pandemic. My wife and I went with a Low-E (+argon) setup in our hurricane impact windows back in 2010 when the economy was in the dumps, and eager contractors could be easily found. We also insulated and weather sealed "this old house" which helps more than most people think.
Land up here was truly dirt cheap when my folks moved here in '72 from Cambridge. Despite being broke, they begged, borrowed, and begged enough to buy additional properties and did quite well selling them to other young folks moving up north. When the markets are crazy like they are now, I'm reminded of how land is a solid investment. Glad to hear your solar install approval went smoothly! It must be very gratifying to see sunshine fill your "tank".
 

SilverGhost

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Location
Back in So Flo - St Lucie
TDI
'05 Golf - totaled :(, wife's '13 Beetle - buy back, TDIless
With the required hurricane impact protection code in Florida I have noticed new builds over a certain price point are dropping "shutters" in favor of impact rated windows.

We already called and talked at length with Tesla on solar and battery wall. Biggest stumbling block is adding another bill after moving several states and furnishing a house. But it has to happen soon, before the tax credits all expire.

Added incentive on the eGolf is neighbor a couple houses down drives one. It has the range to get to work and back each day with "free" charge at work. Having it charge off solar would be a bonus.

That said we have a conventional 2300sq/ft house with a FPL bill $70-$120. Brother inlaw has seen $400-500 bills. So we are already electric scrooges and that makes the payback on solar harder than, say my wife's brother.

Jason
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
Price them again in a few weeks after the dust starts to settle from the current pandemic. My wife and I went with a Low-E (+argon) setup in our hurricane impact windows back in 2010 when the economy was in the dumps, and eager contractors could be easily found. We also insulated and weather sealed "this old house" which helps more than most people think.
Thanks for the suggestion. We did our double pane windows upgrade a few years ago so it is not going to happen anytime soon.

I need to research more regarding if anything worthwhile I can do inside the attic such as putting some material to reflect the heat back into the atmosphere in the summer (May through October for our area).
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
one easy solution is an attic fan. Blow the hot air outside instead of letting it sit under the roof. I put one in shortly after we moved down here. I need to replace it before summer as it's burned out after 20+ years.
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
one easy solution is an attic fan. Blow the hot air outside instead of letting it sit under the roof. I put one in shortly after we moved down here. I need to replace it before summer as it's burned out after 20+ years.
Yes thanks. We got it installed a few years ago. It is thermostatically turned on at 90 F attic temperature.
 

SilverGhost

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Location
Back in So Flo - St Lucie
TDI
'05 Golf - totaled :(, wife's '13 Beetle - buy back, TDIless
Couple of neighbors installed twearly birds instead of proper attic fans. I think I may visit this idea after we get the builder in to fix all their eff ups!

Jason
 

JDSwan87

Black Swamp Thing
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Location
Michigan near Toledo
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI, 5 speed Lagoon Blue Metallic(sold); 2005 Jetta TDI Wagon auto
On a lighter note, though still EV related, I modified my daughter's Mustang Power Wheels to run on 2 20v DeWalt batteries... low voltage isolation circuit board on the left and motor speed controller on the right
[/url][/IMG]
 

SilverGhost

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Location
Back in So Flo - St Lucie
TDI
'05 Golf - totaled :(, wife's '13 Beetle - buy back, TDIless
On a lighter note, though still EV related, I modified my daughter's Mustang Power Wheels to run on 2 20v DeWalt batteries... low voltage isolation circuit board on the left and motor speed controller on the right
[/url][/IMG]
OOOO!! Details, please! I've been looking at modifying my daughter's JD Gator power wheels. She wants us to sit in the bed or cram into the seat and drive her around, but the OE battery is not having it.

Jason
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Nice, I bet that thing rips @ 20V input :). Fast swapping battery capability is pretty neat too. I'm surprised Powerwheels hasn't done something like that already.
 

JDSwan87

Black Swamp Thing
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Location
Michigan near Toledo
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI, 5 speed Lagoon Blue Metallic(sold); 2005 Jetta TDI Wagon auto
OOOO!! Details, please! I've been looking at modifying my daughter's JD Gator power wheels. She wants us to sit in the bed or cram into the seat and drive her around, but the OE battery is not having it.
Jason
I can't take full credit. Here's where I got the idea and used the same parts. He links the parts in the description, the low voltage shutoff is in part 2 (separate video by him).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XcVdPOUly6Y
 

JDSwan87

Black Swamp Thing
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Location
Michigan near Toledo
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI, 5 speed Lagoon Blue Metallic(sold); 2005 Jetta TDI Wagon auto
Nice, I bet that thing rips @ 20V input :). Fast swapping battery capability is pretty neat too. I'm surprised Powerwheels hasn't done something like that already.
Total input is 20v 10ah. I've had it set to about 75% and she's got about 20min of run time so far and the batteries are only at 18.6v currently. I have the shutoff set at 16v, so I don't kill the batteries. Oh, and all driving is in soggy grass, minimal gravel, no paved surfaces.

I've cranked it up to 20v a few times for her and it's pretty darn quick to say the least.
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
Moved the discussion here from another thread as it is more relevant:

Turbo,

Please do not mistake my statement as detracting from Tesla's success. They are the first new US car manufacturer to succeed in 1/2 century. So absolutely more power to them. My statement was more on their supply chain impact globally and US based. Current statistics show that pure EVs make up around 2% of global auto sales. Meaning 98% are ICE, Hybrid or etc...

Lets say by 2022 Tesla is effectively selling 1 Million Electric cars annually. That still means 64/65 Million cars annually are ICE or hybrid. That doesn't solve our problems. Its great for Tesla's bottom line sure. But environmentally its a drop in the bucket. All I am saying in relation to that is I am more interested in Advances to ICE / Hybrid cars right now since they make up such a large % of the market, they will have the biggest impact in the long term right now. Lets say globally we had a 20 - 50% reduction in ICE vehicles CO2 output, through advances in timing, valve, cams, etc... that are already coming out + hybridizing them, and that made up the majority of all the ICE cars sold since the other models would be phase out. Even at a 20% reduction across that board.... that would mean a if each car produced 300 g/mi average and 20% was the figure that would be a reduction of 60 g/mi * 64 million vs 1 million * 300 g/mi reduction ---- 3,840,000,000 less g vs 300,000,000g.... Hell even a modest 5% reduction across the ICE vehicles would be a 960,000,000g, and a 2% reduction would still be more impactful than all electrics sold that year @ 384,000,000g reduction and all of that assumes 0 g/mi for electrics, which we know that based on energy mix they do infact pollute some... I am heavily weighting in Electrics favor in these figures. Also keep in mind these are all g/mi figures. The impact is ridiculous.
I like your big picture data analysis Daemon64!

Regardless of what we say, the data analysis is showing that Tesla continues to trend towards more success with more models and so forth.

The trend I do not see in the data so far is that the sale of luxury Tesla vehicles is going to replace a substantial number of non-luxury ICE vehicles, in the next five years or so, that a) cost on the average $30,000 (+/- 10%) or less and b) have a range of 400 miles or more.
Thanks Daemon64. I will be curious to see the growth rate of non-Tesla EVs (current and projected). Do we have data that shows the success of Tesla will be contagious (no pun intended) to non-Tesla EV models?
So wait- is Tesla is supposed to be the sole manufacturer of EV's in 2025? Tesla is just leading the charge , they won't be fighting the battle single handedly. VW is moving into EV's in a big way. Toyota just partnered up with BYD. I anticipate that in five years time the US will at least have caught up to where Europe is today in terms of EV market share.

https://cleantechnica-com.cdn.amppr...3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top