Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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gene r

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Yes, this. I think American's dislike of hatchbacks sucks. I love the utility of a hatchback over a sedan. You can carry larger and more awkwardly shaped objects. And they can look pretty cool too.
The Model S is a hatchback. So, possibly the Model 3 will be as well. We will see it in March, 2016.
 

GoFaster

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There are certain aspects of the North Amercan car-buying public that I don't understand (even though I live here). Hatchbacks probably got associated with cheap economy cars back in the 1970s and early 1980s. For some reason, hatchbacks and station wagons became "un-cool" and later on, minivans joined them.

And yet, hatchbacks and station wagons and minivans sell in enormous quantities even today ... but they are badged as "compact utility vehicles" and "sport utility vehicles". A Mercedes GLA is little different in size from a Mazda 3 and it's the same general body style but there is a big difference in price tag. Chevrolet Sonic (Aveo in the rest of the world) doesn't sell. Chevrolet Trax (Opel/Vauxhall Mokka) sells well. Same car underneath. GM bailed out of minivans some years ago but the Lambda crossovers (Chevrolet Traverse etc) sell well even though they're basically the same thing but with hinged doors instead of sliding doors.

Maybe these EVs and plug-in hybrids will coax people back into the most practical body style ... a 5 door hatch/wagon ... The EVs need the better aerodynamics of sitting a little lower and with a more sloping rear roofline.
 

turbovan+tdi

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I love wagon's, hatchbacks and van's of all sizes, they are simply just too practical and versatile. I'll never be without one.
 

turbobrick240

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I'd love a Volvo C30 with a tdi or ev powertrain.
 

SageBrush

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Hatchbacks are wonderful. I suppose a person could like the lines of a sedan (I do not), but loss of all the functionality of a hatchback is just crazy.
 

GoFaster

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The new (2016) Honda Civic is an example of a car that could maintain EXACTLY the same shape, but be a hatchback instead of a sedan. It would then be possible to extend the bottom of the rear window further back (without changing the shape of the car) so that you could have a hope of actually seeing something behind the car through the rear window, and have an opening into the trunk that is bigger than a mail slot. The car as it is has a big trunk but you can't get anything into it because the opening is too small.

I don't get it.
 

makattack

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Hatchbacks are wonderful. I suppose a person could like the lines of a sedan (I do not), but loss of all the functionality of a hatchback is just crazy.
I've always loved the versatility of a hatchback, and my first car was a Subaru Legacy wagon AWD/5MT that I loved. Being a subie gearhead, when the WRX was announced as coming to NA, I couldn't resist, having lived in the UK and envied the prodrive P1's that were available there in the late 90's -- which I only could sit in by visiting the Birmingham autoshow.

The WRX came in hatchback and sedan formats, but the sedan had a slightly larger width (by almost 2 whole inches! ;) and a stiffer body. Because I was entertaining the thought of joining the SCCA based on the experiences of a friend who raced regularly, I went with the sedan and coincidentally got a free SCCA membership as part of getting a WRX. Well, road rally was my foray into SCCA event participation and while I loved it for the one season, the time commitment was just too great for my navigator -- who was my SCCA/SSB racing friend.

Long story short: I really ended up missing the convenience of the wagon. The WRX didn't even have fold down rear seats to maintain vehicle rigidity. I am now happy with my GSW 6MT, but boy do I miss the AWD and IRS...
 

nicklockard

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The Model S is a hatchback. So, possibly the Model 3 will be as well. We will see it in March, 2016.
True, and a pretty darn well executed one as well. I hope they carry that DNA forward to the 3-model sedan.

Here's my personal EV list:

  • Minimum range = 200 miles (say as an annualized average for a Los Angeles commuter)
  • 0-Freeway < 15 seconds
  • Hatchback with FULL access to storage area (hatch aperture >85% of max storage aperture in same plane) AND > 40 cubic feet of usable storage with seats down.
  • 5-year True Cost of Ownership (Edmunds model) < $35,500.
 

GoFaster

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The Chevrolet G2 BEV (a.k.a. Chevrolet Bolt, or whatever it ends up being called) will likely do all that, or at least come pretty close. This will be the first production battery-electric that I believe will be "good enough for most people".
 

GoFaster

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Please have the UCS contact each one of the rural residents in Southern Ontario (and presumably many other places) who have posted a "Health Studies before Wind Turbines" sign, or a "Wind Turbines and Children Don't Mix" sign, and educate those residents why they should be favouring wind turbines instead of opposing them.

I've run out of patience with the whole lot. Shifting the grid to renewables is far more difficult when you have to overcome NIMBY. Maybe that bunch of ivory-tower folks could do better than I can.

Ontario's electricity generation is mostly nuclear and Quebec's is mostly hydroelectric, but neither of those sources are without their problems.
 

wrc777

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This is the latest from Union of Concerned Scientists. Electric cars are cleaner even from cradle to grave and they will get even better as the grid shifts away from coal to renewables.

http://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default...ner-Cars-from-Cradle-to-Grave-full-report.pdf
The issue with renewables like solar and wind is that the sun doesn't shine 24 hrs a day and the wind sometimes blows too slow or too fast for a wind turbine.

I would be curious to hear the proposed solutions for those two problems.
 

meerschm

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There are a couple options.

basically, it is some form of storage, coupled with control of the load.

(example is you can turn off some of the air conditioning when a cloud decreases sunshine. natural coupling)

storage options include pumping air or water, to let pressure or gravity help,

battery storage, or some form of spinning energy storage. (flywheel)

or thermal storage (some plants use reflected solar to heat salts, which can be stored hot for use at night)


the issues, benefits, and limitations all seem to be changing as the cost of technology changes, and the overall long term costs of burning fossil fuels and nukes are better understood.
 

nwdiver

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The issue with renewables like solar and wind is that the sun doesn't shine 24 hrs a day and the wind sometimes blows too slow or too fast for a wind turbine.
I would be curious to hear the proposed solutions for those two problems.
Are you serious or is this satire? How does a BEV store electricity? I'll give you a hint: what does the 'B' stand for? ;)

We've barely scratched the surface on storage methods....

Compressed Air Storage;
Pumped Storage;
Hydrogen Storage;
Aluminum Battery;
Gravity Storage;
Vanadium Flow;
Rail-Gravity Storage;

All kinds of ways to buffer intermittent supply with storage... plus use of demand response.
 
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nicklockard

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Also, load-matching. AC usage is highest when sunshine is strongest. Pair up loads to sources which are matched in time of use and delivery.

Plus, load shifting. Lots of loads are intermittent. Did you know that wastewater, sewage, and drinking water processing consumes 13% of power in the United States?

It's about negawatts and laterwatts, before megawatts.

Elimination, substitution, patience, load matching = smart power. Solutions don't need to be perfect replacements for status quo --for that is a dangerous canard. They just need to be smarter.
 

GoFaster

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Overnight recharging of EVs has the opportunity of being done at times convenient to the utility via the "smart grid" - but this is generally not going to be when the sun is shining.
 

saGhost

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Overnight recharging of EVs has the opportunity of being done at times convenient to the utility via the "smart grid" - but this is generally not going to be when the sun is shining.
While this is true, most cars are parked for several hours during the day somewhere, too. In principle, there's no reason the charging can't be shifted to mostly happen in those places instead.

It'd mean new wiring installations and require different monetary incentive arrangements, but compared to the cost of the rest of this the wiring at all those parking lots is trivial.

The average commute being less than 40 miles and the typical workday being more than 8 hours means that most people would be fine charging on a standard 120V line at 12A at work for their commute - they don't even need 220V to fully replenish their daily drive.
Walter
 

VeeDubTDI

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While this is true, most cars are parked for several hours during the day somewhere, too. In principle, there's no reason the charging can't be shifted to mostly happen in those places instead.
It'd mean new wiring installations and require different monetary incentive arrangements, but compared to the cost of the rest of this the wiring at all those parking lots is trivial.
The average commute being less than 40 miles and the typical workday being more than 8 hours means that most people would be fine charging on a standard 120V line at 12A at work for their commute - they don't even need 220V to fully replenish their daily drive.
Walter
Right on. Washington State recently had problems with an electrical surplus due to PV and wind being high generators at the same time there was a glut of water that the hydro plants had to process. Shifting EV charging (among other things) to daytime hours could help smooth out some of this generation peak. In time, I think we'll see the grid get smarter, with more dynamic pricing and the ability to communicate with large electrical consumers. We may see vehicles getting signals from EV chargers saying "now is the ideal time to charge," with users getting rate discounts for participating in load management.
 

saGhost

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In time, I think we'll see the grid get smarter, with more dynamic pricing and the ability to communicate with large electrical consumers. We may see vehicles getting signals from EV chargers saying "now is the ideal time to charge," with users getting rate discounts for participating in load management.
Cars like Tesla's, with OTA updateable firmware and always on cellular connections built in are ready for this now, if someone built the control system and offered suitable incentives.

The owner would sign an agreement with the power company for flexible charge timing in exchange for reduced rates, and then give the power company the right information to reach out to the car and tell it when to charge over the web.

As far as I can see, the only new things needed for this to happen are the smart master server to decide when to charge the various cars and the incentive plan. The cars already support scheduled charging and remote web/app control, so giving the utility limited control at the right time will be fairly simple.
Walter
 

nicklockard

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Overnight recharging of EVs has the opportunity of being done at times convenient to the utility via the "smart grid" - but this is generally not going to be when the sun is shining.


We're making these tempered mirrors now (phase II) and have made some for nearly every project in western hemisphere. With heat storage, units continue producing power for hours after dark.

The heat generated, even when in the position you see here, is really warm within a few feet of the focal line--just from reflected stray and ambient-diffuse light.
 
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nwdiver

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Cars like Tesla's, with OTA updateable firmware and always on cellular connections built in are ready for this now, if someone built the control system and offered suitable incentives.
The owner would sign an agreement with the power company for flexible charge timing in exchange for reduced rates, and then give the power company the right information to reach out to the car and tell it when to charge over the web.
As far as I can see, the only new things needed for this to happen are the smart master server to decide when to charge the various cars and the incentive plan. The cars already support scheduled charging and remote web/app control, so giving the utility limited control at the right time will be fairly simple.
Walter
This already exists... one of the many reasons I look around and think I'm taking crazy pills... something is seriously.... seriously wrong with people; We have everything we need TODAY to wake up to a better world tomorrow.



What's stopping us? There is no technology that we're waiting to arrive... there's A LOT that we all need to start doing.
 

slk23

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We're making these tempered mirrors now (phase II) and have made some for nearly every project in western hemisphere. With heat storage, units continue producing power for hours after dark.
The heat generated, even when in the position you see here, is really warm within a few feet of the focal line--just from reflected stray and ambient-diffuse light.
The technology used in Morocco was pioneered on a large scale in the Mojave desert in the '80s.
Solar Energy Generating Systems
My father was the lead engineer on SEGS and worked as a consultant for the World Bank which financed the Morocco project.
 
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gmcjetpilot

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The technology used in Morocco was pioneered on a large scale in the Mojave desert in the '80s.
Solar Energy Generating Systems
My father was the lead engineer on SEGS and worked as a consultant for the World Bank which financed the Morocco project.
When I was in engineering school, one of my elective courses was in solar
energy. I was fascinated and very enthusiastic about it. This project was
about the time I was in school. Many advances have been made. If I had
the inclination, time to build a dream home it would include solar energy
technology.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Jason and I test drove a 2012 Nissan Leaf SL a few nights ago with 6,000 miles (!) on it. It actually drove really nicely, and was worth some very serious consideration at only $11,000. It's amazing how much depreciation those vehicles faced due to early adoption and a rapidly progressing market.

The packaging in the Leaf was surprising to me... I ended up liking the layout and driving dynamics a lot better than I thought I would.
 

saGhost

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Jason and I test drove a 2012 Nissan Leaf SL a few nights ago with 6,000 miles (!) on it. It actually drove really nicely, and was worth some very serious consideration at only $11,000. It's amazing how much depreciation those vehicles faced due to early adoption and a rapidly progressing market.

The packaging in the Leaf was surprising to me... I ended up liking the layout and driving dynamics a lot better than I thought I would.
I actually really like the Leaf ergonomics when I looked at one. If I needed a second car for a household that never had to drive more than 50 miles per day, it'd be a great choice.

I take road trips, so I picked the Volt - I really wish it had a little more headroom and a more vertical seat like the Leaf (but I very much prefer the Volt exterior.)
Walter
 

GoFaster

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I would suggest that if you are interested in a current-generation EV and want to get it now, lease it. Rapid advancement will mean that the current ones will become obsolete fast and won't be desirable used cars. It's already showing as rapid depreciation.

New models that will be out in a year-ish from now will blow away all the electric Leafs, Focuses, 500s, smarts, Sparks, and iMiEVs ... If you can live with <160 km / <100 mi range, those are all going to be cheap ...
 
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