Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

[vandermic07]

Iridium is wayyyyy out of my price range.

Some articles say that Starlink will start at $80/month. Not sure how much data. I would be willing to try it for that price if it is equivalent or more data than what i have now.

I will have to keep an eye on starlink.
Thanks for the heads up NWdiver

 

[turbobrick240]

A highly track prepped (except for tires, oddly) Model 3 performance has matched the lap time of a McLaren F1 on a famous Japanese track! :

https://electrek-co.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/electrek.co/2020/02/12/tesla-model-3-mods-competitive-mclaren-f1-racetrack/amp/?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Felectrek.co%2F2020%2F02%2F12%2Ftesla-model-3-mods-competitive-mclaren-f1-racetrack%2F

 

[tadawson]

Latency is really only an issue if you're gaming. Even there Starlink won't be nearly as bad as current options since the satellites will be in a lower orbit of ~210 miles vs ~485 miles for Iridium or ~22,000 miles for Hughes net.

Most satellite internet currently uses geostationary satellites while starlink will be in LEO. The latency with LEO based internet will be SIGNIFICANTLY better.

Apparently you have never done networking in the real world or professionally. Latency *KILLS* throughput in higher speed networks. Even 1 or 2 ms is detrimental, 600 unusable just about across the board, and 30ms only tolerable at slow speeds (such as most internet services) Get to actual high speed networks (10 gigabit and up) as opposed to the crap they peddle to the public, and it's a whole different ball game. 30ms may work for home networks, but not much else, so low altitude sats can help, but ever get close to land based glass . . .

Familiar with the concept of TCP windowing? It's amazingg] how much data can 'sit on the wire' in a high latency network, and with TCP (most things) the ack won't come back to allow more TX until a full round trip has been made. (Even with windowing, there are limits).

 

[nwdiver]

Apparently you have never done networking in the real world or professionally. Latency *KILLS* throughput in higher speed networks. Even 1 or 2 ms is detrimental, 600 unusable just about across the board, and 30ms only tolerable at slow speeds (such as most internet services) Get to actual high speed networks (10 gigabit and up) as opposed to the crap they peddle to the public, and it's a whole different ball game. 30ms may work for home networks, but not much else, so low altitude sats can help, but ever get close to land based glass . . .

Familiar with the concept of TCP windowing? It's amazingg] how much data can 'sit on the wire' in a high latency network, and with TCP (most things) the ack won't come back to allow more TX until a full round trip has been made. (Even with windowing, there are limits).

.... I've used the internet... I've used satellite internet.... I know that I don't care if it takes 300ms or 2ms between clicks for something to happen unless I'm playing an online game. I know the only time I care about latency >1s is when I'm playing a game.

Point is that for most people just using the internet for anything other than gaming 'Starlink' will work just fine.

I guess it's a bit like EVs... there's always going to be that 0.1% use case that something else is better at in a very narrow circumstance

 

[turbobrick240]

Starlink should be more than adequate for gaming too. 30 ms latency is typical of what most gamers are currently getting on their high speed internet service. It would really only be slow for something like high frequency algorithm based stock trading where every millisecond matters. Even there it's probably faster than land based fiberoptics or microwave transmission that is going to the other side of the planet.

https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/spacex-aims-to-launch-another-batch-of-starlink-satellites-this-weekend

https://www.dotcom-tools.com/internet-backbone-latency.aspx

 

[bhtooefr]

And realistically, HFT is done in datacenters that are physically close to the exchanges, where Starlink is irrelevant (its benefits are greatest in lower-density areas).

 

[tikal]

EV on a budget

In 2017 we bought a 2013 Fiat 500e from a Fiat dealer in PA. It had 9,000 miles and cost $8000, with a Fiat CPO warranty.

It's closing in on 30,000 miles now. In that time it's had a rear wheel bearing replaced under warranty ($150 deductable), I've replaced the tires ($380 for 4 Yokohamas), wiper blades, and the 12v battery. I also changed out the brake fluid in the master cylinder reservoir. Oh and a few refills of the washer fluid. That's it!

This summer I'll look into changing the coolant.

The car gets around 4 miles per kWh, with with our electric rates means about $0.03/mile in energy costs.... so about $600 in electricity. That same miles in the Mk4 Jetta would have cost about $1400 in Diesel.

Thanks,

I appreciate the feedback. Right now a coworker of mine is leaning to get a used EV as commuter vehicle for a 85 mile round trip. Budget is fairly tight, $12000 would be pushing it. I think it will be tight to make it on one charge with a used Kia Soul EV but here at work we have a very few 110 volt outlets that some drivers have been using to recharge while in the office, so there is a possibility.

Thoughts?

 

[truman]

RUG is 1.99 here today
The EV economics don't seem favorable to me

 

[Lightflyer1]

$1.84 regular and $2.25 diesel here today at QT. Lowest prices I have seen in some time. Better fill up the Suburban and the Beetle.

 

[turbobrick240]

I appreciate the feedback. Right now a coworker of mine is leaning to get a used EV as commuter vehicle for a 85 mile round trip. Budget is fairly tight, $12000 would be pushing it. I think it will be tight to make it on one charge with a used Kia Soul EV but here at work we have a very few 110 volt outlets that some drivers have been using to recharge while in the office, so there is a possibility.

Thoughts?

I think your co-worker would be better served by a used Chevy Volt for that commute. I don't think a gen 1 Kia Soul EV would make 85 miles. It would be very taxing on the battery if it could. The only way I could see that working is if at least several hours of charging at work is guaranteed every day. A Chevy Bolt would be good too, but they start at around $20k these days.

 

[Nuje]

I appreciate the feedback. Right now a coworker of mine is leaning to get a used EV as commuter vehicle for a 85 mile round trip... I think it will be tight to make it on one charge with a used Kia Soul EV but here at work we have a very few 110 volt outlets that some drivers have been using to recharge while in the office, so there is a possibility.
Thoughts?

110V to get 45miles worth of charge....unless you're putting in 12hr days, I don't think that's gonna work. And if the charging is only a "maybe"....and then if it's cold and wet so you need heat in the car....

Be prepared to find a charging station on the way home each day.

Last thing you want after (or during) a long day at work is stressing over whether or not you're gonna be able to coax the car all the way home.

 

[compu_85]

RUG is 1.99 here today
The EV economics don't seem favorable to me

With a 35 mpg gasser, that gives a cost of $0.057/mile. More than double an EV.

-J

 

[SilverGhost]

I'm in the same boat here with a 80 mile round trip daily. But then I also work at a Chevy/VW dealer with L2 chargers and one I think is DC fast charge. But then I have to figure out a charging solution at home.

Have been looking at eGolfs, but trying to hit the sweet spot of a payment that is same or off sets my fuel bill. Currently a 1.8T A/T MkIV. Currently $160/mo for gas. (410 miles @ just under 30mpg and prefers super over RUG with 193k miles on it).

Just missed a 2015 limited for $8700, and most of the rest regionally are >$12K.

Jason

 

[Lightflyer1]

But people already own their current cars. They would have to buy an EV for way more money. I bought my 2015 Beetle new in 2017 and it is paid for. It would take forever to recoup that money with that fuel cost difference. I bought the 2002 Suburban for $1200 cash. Even though it is a gas sucker you would never recoup the difference. If you have to own a $30k and up new car, then maybe you are right, it would be better. For the majority of people who drive cheap cars and use cheap fuel it makes no sense at all.

Almost nothing EV available locally for $10k or less except old Leaf's. Not having one of those.

 

[tikal]

110V to get 45miles worth of charge....unless you're putting in 12hr days, I don't think that's gonna work. And if the charging is only a "maybe"....and then if it's cold and wet so you need heat in the car....

Be prepared to find a charging station on the way home each day.

Last thing you want after (or during) a long day at work is stressing over whether or not you're gonna be able to coax the car all the way home.

Yes I understand it is close so a Volt might be a better choice in this situation/budget as turbobrick240 suggests.

It would have been very useful to be able to rent or loan a Kia Soul EV and test it out in this route. Charge it fully at home. Drive 43 miles to work, charge it using 110 volt plug for 8 hours and drive back home. Do this for five days and record results.

I do not think this is a possibility in our area (SE Texas). Years ago I used to see some Nissan Leaf cars around but lately not. In fact I cannot recall seeing even a few budget EVs around. 'Budget' as in being able to buy them used (three year old) around $12K or so.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

There could be a million, and the latency of the long haulup and back will still be a problem. TCP/IP just does not run well on high latency connections . . .

Starlink isn't your grandmother's satellite internet. With low Earth orbit satellites, laser sat-to-sat communication and ground links to bounce the signal, latency should be similar or better to fiber in most situations.

Here's a great video simulating Starlink's latency.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m05abdGSOxY

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I appreciate the feedback. Right now a coworker of mine is leaning to get a used EV as commuter vehicle for a 85 mile round trip. Budget is fairly tight, $12000 would be pushing it. I think it will be tight to make it on one charge with a used Kia Soul EV but here at work we have a very few 110 volt outlets that some drivers have been using to recharge while in the office, so there is a possibility.

Thoughts?

To make an ~80 mile EV like a Kia Soul, Fiat 500e, Nissan LEAF or VW e-Golf work for that commute, he would need reliable charging on both ends of his commute. A regular 120 volt outlet will suffice at work, but he'll want a 240 volt charging station at home. Remember that head winds, 80 MPH speeds and cold weather will all reduce the usable range of the vehicle.

If these charging requirements can be met, he stands to save a lot of money on commuting. As compu_85 mentioned, our Fiat 500e has been dirt cheap to operate compared to a conventional car. It certainly won't work for everyone, but it can yield incredible savings for those whose lifestyles the car fits into.

 

[kjclow]

Just pulled up cars.com. Looking at 100 miles and under $12,000, there are only three electric cars listed. A Leaf and two Volts. One of the Volts, I wouldn't even look at with 132k miles. Go up to $15k and it just throws more Leafs on the fire.

 

[Lightflyer1]

Just pulled up cars.com. Looking at 100 miles and under $12,000, there are only three electric cars listed. A Leaf and two Volts. One of the Volts, I wouldn't even look at with 132k miles. Go up to $15k and it just throws more Leafs on the fire.

"more Leafs on the fire" I like that!

 

[tikal]

To make an ~80 mile EV like a Kia Soul, Fiat 500e, Nissan LEAF or VW e-Golf work for that commute, he would need reliable charging on both ends of his commute. A regular 120 volt outlet will suffice at work, but he'll want a 240 volt charging station at home. Remember that head winds, 80 MPH speeds and cold weather will all reduce the usable range of the vehicle.

If these charging requirements can be met, he stands to save a lot of money on commuting. As compu_85 mentioned, our Fiat 500e has been dirt cheap to operate compared to a conventional car. It certainly won't work for everyone, but it can yield incredible savings for those whose lifestyles the car fits into.

I agree with your general approach. It comes down to properly having the tool(s) to check the health of the EV battery one is considering buying. I understand that these EVs have their own console/software telling you how much 'life' is left and so forth. However I am not sure how accurate they are or if they tend to be optimistic like our TDIs onboard MPG readings

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I agree with your general approach. It comes down to properly having the tool(s) to check the health of the EV battery one is considering buying. I understand that these EVs have their own console/software telling you how much 'life' is left and so forth. However I am not sure how accurate they are or if they tend to be optimistic like our TDIs onboard MPG readings

The only cars I know of with on-board battery health indicators are Nissan LEAFs. All of the others need to be calculated by running a couple of full cycles and seeing what you get. Teslas will also show you something approximating battery health by way of the range display. Teslas show EPA rated range, whereas all other EVs show estimated range based on recent driving (not really useful for determining battery capacity).

Our Fiat has lost approximately 10% capacity in 7 years and 33,000 miles. Most Nissan LEAFs I've looked at are between 20 and 40% capacity loss over similar time and mileage. YMMV

 

[El Dobro]

If you have Torque Pro, you can pick up PIDS that can give you an approximation of battery capacity.

 

[Tin Man]

But people already own their current cars. They would have to buy an EV for way more money. I bought my 2015 Beetle new in 2017 and it is paid for. It would take forever to recoup that money with that fuel cost difference. I bought the 2002 Suburban for $1200 cash. Even though it is a gas sucker you would never recoup the difference. If you have to own a $30k and up new car, then maybe you are right, it would be better. For the majority of people who drive cheap cars and use cheap fuel it makes no sense at all.

Almost nothing EV available locally for $10k or less except old Leaf's. Not having one of those.

Reminds me of the arguments against diesel saying the extra cost wouldn't be worth it. Now all of a sudden, double or more of the cost of ICE vehicles is justified for the relatively meager "fuel" savings of an EV. How quaint. Bias anyone?

 

[Nuje]

Yeah - that never held water (TDI vs. gas); it was pretty simple math to see that it wouldn't take too long to make the difference up in fuel savings.
In my case: $2300 price difference.

(Numbers rounded a bit for ease of calculation)
1000km of driving TDI = $75 (~$1.33/L @5.5L/100km)
1000km of driving a 150hp gasser = $125 (~$1.50/L @ 8L/100km)

$50 diff. per 1000km. x 46 = $2300

46K km and I've made back my money. The next 400,000km, I'm all but making money.

 

[Lightflyer1]

Yep I bought my brand new 2015 Beetle for $16k. Stop sale after dieselgate. I am saying the majority of the people won't spend $30k or more on any vehicle diesel, gas or electric. Just can't afford it. Or they don't mind being in debt forever for a stinking car. For those who can't or won't spend that kind of money just to get from point A to point B they make no sense and save them nothing. They just cost they out the wazoo. If everyone goes electric you can just bet the rates will increase and you will save nothing as well. It will just be the electric companies taking all of your money instead of the gas companies. Or you can buy $40k worth of solar panels to power your $40k car. I will stick with my $16k Beetle tdi and $1200 2002 Suburban gas hog. More than likely never to buy a new car again. Unless I get really old and decrepit and can't drive and they have self driving cars by then. But you probably won't own them by then, just pay to use.

 

[Nuje]

I know a lot of people opt for a lease, where they just build in the fact that they're gonna pay $500/mo. (or whatever) for a car for the rest of their life....just like rent.

I'm not built that way (the mortgage got paid off ASAP; and if we didn't have available cash for anything else, it didn't get purchased until we did), but a lot of people are. That way, they can have the $50K+ car without having to amass $50K in the bank, or be "stuck with an old car" (another mindset that totally escapes me) when they finally pay it off.

 

[Lightflyer1]

Well I am like that too. My home was paid off in 13 years. I am debt free. Buying trash on credit is stupid. I pay cash for what I need. I try very hard not to overbuy anything. $50k cars are not for me, hence the $1200 Suburban. A lease is no better than a car loan. You are still on the hook and you usually buy more car than you need so your payments are just as large as if you bought a cheaper car. I was raised not to be in debt except for maybe a house or car. If you couldn't pay for the car in three years your were buying too much car. Now I believe you should just buy one for cash. There are so many cheap usable cars out there now days because others just have to have something new and dump a perfectly good old car.

 

[Tin Man]

EV's are a hobby. Fun but not practical for most people in our housing challenged and high mileage commute society, which for some reason likes large thirsty SUV's over economical hatchbacks. The costs are a big problem too. Perhaps if enthusiasm for small practical EV's improves, the public will benefit more.

 

[turbobrick240]

Yes, it's very encouraging to see how quickly the enthusiasm for EV's is growing. People are looking forward to the future. There is a reason why Tesla has a market cap greater than Ford, GM, and FCA combined- investors can sense that the future of automobiles is electrified. The current rate of divestment from fossil fuels is a pretty good indicator of where things are headed.

 

[Tin Man]

I don't see improvement until public charging becomes the norm and relatively problem free. This has too many hurdles to make it anywhere near "quickly"