Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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turbobrick240

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I think he meant greenercars.org, which is used for LEED certification. They use a pretty hokey and amateurish/flawed algorithm to compile their green lists(which EV's dominate). For those who know better, cradle to grave(and beyond) life cycle assesment is the important metric.
 

jackbombay

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I was just listening to the Wheel Bearings podcast where Sam described one of the shortcomings with the Model S is that while you do get that "ludicrous" launch, it's pretty much one-and-done. The battery and electric motor produce so much heat doing hard accelerations that they cannot be done repeatedly.
Where do you live that you need to repeatedly do 0-60 launches in under 3 seconds? How often do you do 0-60 launches in under 3 seconds in your current car? Is your car capable of doing 0-60 launches in under 3 seconds? Are you holding electric vehicles to a standard that your ICE car could never and will never meet? If you repeatedly did 0-60 launches in under 3 seconds in a gas burning car that was capable of doing that, how many could you do before it overheated? NOT MANY!!!!!!

But yea, carry on with you distaste of electric vehicles it is amusing.
 

Tin Man

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Like I've said, the way some IT people worship EV's its a miracle they can use their "ludicrous" mode at all and to no advantage. Its not a distaste for EV's, its their ludicrous Kool-Aid drinking promotion, such as having a garage with solar panels Marie Antoinette "let them eat cake" scenario.

EV's are not "zero emissions" as they most frequently are described, nor are they "economical" or even well built for some tastes with poor paint/bodywork/interiors. Taxpayers are forced to subsidize them, as allowing a free market would make them even less popular and more expensive than often better and perhaps safer diesels, which are bad-mouthed by a clueless public. My diesel 5-series is a good example of a great car in most categories, but I am open to anything with a motor, honestly. The time for EV's will come, certainly, but the last word on infrastructure, cost, and longevity hasn't been described yet.
 
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nwdiver

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Like I've said, the way some IT people worship EV's its a miracle they can use their "ludicrous" mode at all and to no advantage. Its not a distaste for EV's, its their ludicrous Kool-Aid drinking promotion, such as having a garage with solar panels Marie Antoinette "let them eat cake" scenario.

EV's are not "zero emissions" as they most frequently are described, nor are they "economical" or even well built for some tastes with poor paint/bodywork/interiors. Taxpayers are forced to subsidize them, as allowing a free market would make them even less popular and more expensive than often better and perhaps safer diesels, which are bad-mouthed by a clueless public. My diesel 5-series is a good example of a great car in most categories, but I am open to anything with a motor, honestly. The time for EV's will come, certainly, but the last word on infrastructure, cost, and longevity hasn't been described yet.

The point is that the technology exists now... we just need to accelerate deployment. I agree EVs are terrible but I can't use a bike for everything :( I would love nothing more than to not need a car at all.
 

Tin Man

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The point is that the technology exists now... we just need to accelerate deployment. I agree EVs are terrible but I can't use a bike for everything :( I would love nothing more than to not need a car at all.
With diesels being almost as good emission-wise as EV's (at least for the time being), its more of a futurist pursuit, eh? I think I understand - it's a hobby. Its interesting how the luddite-ness of car hatred comes out.

The irony is that the alternative to freedom of mobility efficient clean cars is far worse in effect. Trains and ride sharing arguably make bad results in many areas such as cost and road congestion.
 
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nwdiver

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With diesels being almost as good emission-wise as EV's (at least for the time being), its more of a futurist pursuit, eh? I think I understand - it's a hobby. Its interesting how the luddite-ness of car hatred comes out.
???? How do I use surplus wind and solar in a diesel?

Wind is going to waste right now as I type this in SPP. The energy I'm using to charge my car would literally be thrown into the wind if I wasn't 'filling up' my car right now. How do I do that with a TDI?
 

Tin Man

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???? How do I use surplus wind and solar in a diesel?

Wind is going to waste right now as I type this in SPP. The energy I'm using to charge my car would literally be thrown into the wind if I wasn't 'filling up' my car right now. How do I do that with a TDI?
Mix with biodiesel, shake, repeat....

Wind is a good term. How can we live with all the surplus wind and solar rays everywhere we look?
 

nwdiver

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Mix with biodiesel, shake, repeat....

Wind is a good term. How can we live with all the surplus wind and solar rays everywhere we look?
There's no such thing as 'surplus' biodiesel anymore. A gallon of biodiesel I use is one less gallon someone else can use and one more gallon of fools fuel someone needs to burn. As opposed to the 50kWh of wind energy I'm using that would simply be wasted if I didn't have a car capable of storing it. Wind and Solar curtailments are going to become exponentially more common as we clean up the grid; I can't think of a better solution to reducing curtailment than EVs... can you?

Getting ~100% of our energy from wind and solar would occupy <0.1% of land. So apparently 0.01% is a significant number and 0.1% is 'everywhere' you guys are terrible at 'numbers' no wonder you can't understand why diesel is done :)
 
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Tin Man

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There's no such thing as 'surplus' biodiesel anymore. A gallon of biodiesel I use is one less gallon someone else can use and one more gallon of fools fuel someone needs to burn. As opposed to the 50kWh of wind energy I'm using that would simply be wasted if I didn't have a car capable of storing it. Wind and Solar curtailments are going to become exponentially more common as we clean up the grid; I can't think of a better solution to reducing curtailment than EVs... can you?

Getting ~100% of our energy from wind and solar would occupy <0.1% of land. So apparently 0.01% is a significant number and 0.1% is 'everywhere' you guys are terrible at 'numbers' no wonder you can't understand why diesel is done :)
Yeah, that's what I meant, surplus biodiesel, ha ha. What a concept!

Diesel is "done"? What a dream...

You are looking in the mirror when it comes to "numbers" - try economics 101 to start...
 

nwdiver

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Yeah, that's what I meant, surplus biodiesel, ha ha. What a concept!

Diesel is "done"? What a dream...

You are looking in the mirror when it comes to "numbers" - try economics 101 to start...
.... so why are you proposing biodiesel as in any way remotely comparable to using surplus wind energy????

Economics... hmmm... lets see... wind energy is $18/MWh or 0.018/kWh. A good EV can go >3 miles on 1 kWh so that's $0.004/mile. But.... curtailing wind actually costs $$$ so using curtailment actually has a NEGATIVE cost; You mean THOSE economics? ;)
 

Tin Man

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.... so why are you proposing biodiesel as in any way remotely comparable to using surplus wind energy????
Economics... hmmm... lets see... wind energy is $18/MWh or 0.018/kWh. A good EV can go >3 miles on 1 kWh so that's $0.004/mile. But.... curtailing wind actually costs $$$ so using curtailment actually has a NEGATIVE cost; You mean THOSE economics? ;)
I never said anything about surplus wind, unless its the other meaning of the word ha ha.

Renewable diesel supported by the California’s Low Carbon Fuel Standard took steadily larger bites of state fuel demand. The fuel, which blends seamlessly with petroleum diesel and can use existing pipelines and other infrastructure, accounted for 10.2% of the California diesel pool in 2018. Renewable diesel increased that share by more than 60% to 17.2% in the first half of 2019, racing past biodiesel as the lead diesel alternative.
https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news/...tHeX0yZvyEPqeeeigFazgkg#.XiHwtAsUMMU.facebook
 

nwdiver

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I never said anything about surplus wind, unless its the other meaning of the word ha ha.
https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news/...tHeX0yZvyEPqeeeigFazgkg#.XiHwtAsUMMU.facebook
In response to how do I use surplus wind to power a TDI you suggested biodiesel.... explain....

'Renewable' hydrocarbon fuels need to displace fuel needs that cannot be electrified such as aviation. Ground transport is very easily powered by solar or wind which makes it beyond idiotic to waste hydrocarbons powering ground transport.

We're going to have A LOT of surplus wind and solar.... should we just waste it? Why not use it to charge cars? CA is already curtailing more energy every month than all the EVs in the state could possibly use. Clearly we need more EVs.
 
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Tin Man

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.... so why are you proposing biodiesel as in any way remotely comparable to using surplus wind energy????
Economics... hmmm... lets see... wind energy is $18/MWh or 0.018/kWh. A good EV can go >3 miles on 1 kWh so that's $0.004/mile. But.... curtailing wind actually costs $$$ so using curtailment actually has a NEGATIVE cost; You mean THOSE economics? ;)
No, I'm talking about the impossibility of replacing our use of fossil fuel for the foreseeable future with anything remotely resembling economic certainty or efficiency. The percentage of EV's at current levels will increase of course, but fossil fuel, like it or not, is dominant in our economy. It will take a long time to sort things out without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
 

Tin Man

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In response to how do I use surplus wind to power a TDI you suggested biodiesel.... explain....

'Renewable' hydrocarbon fuels need to displace fuel needs that cannot be electrified such as aviation. Ground transport is very easily powered by solar or wind which makes it beyond idiotic to waste hydrocarbons powering ground transport.

We're going to have A LOT of surplus wind and solar.... should we just waste it? Why not use it to charge cars?
Its idiotic to subsidize electronic transport, avoiding market forces to improve efficiency and cost. Electric trains have been around for a century and so far no municipality can run them without flagrant losses. Its not the idealist, but the realist and empiricist talking here.
 

nwdiver

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No, I'm talking about the impossibility of replacing our use of fossil fuel for the foreseeable future with anything remotely resembling economic certainty or efficiency. The percentage of EV's at current levels will increase of course, but fossil fuel, like it or not, is dominant in our economy. It will take a long time to sort things out without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
So what do we do with renewable curtailment? Why not use it to charge cars?
 
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Tin Man

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Even though studies have shown that plastic waste would make a minuscule effect on land use overall, its still a good idea to try and recycle it. So far, we cannot even do this. Technology and market forces will eventually catch up, as will harnessing the earth's wind and solar. Doing it right is critical, so theoretical solutions need not be made first line as they often create more harm than expected. Its a good idea to try out new tech and advances, but with eyes open to the unintended consequences.
 

Tin Man

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So what do we do with renewable curtailment? Why not use it to charge cars?
Never said anything about it. You are in the midst of a straw argument, sir.

But let me get this straight, as a solution to our personal mobility needs, not only do we need to buy/lease EV's and get a garage to put them in to charge, but we also need solar panels ($$$), fast chargers, and battery backups for when the sun don't shine and the wind don't blow. Cake anyone!$$? Heck with those deplorables that can't afford this and can't use a bicycle to work.
 
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nwdiver

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Even though studies have shown that plastic waste would make a minuscule effect on land use overall, its still a good idea to try and recycle it. So far, we cannot even do this. Technology and market forces will eventually catch up, as will harnessing the earth's wind and solar. Doing it right is critical, so theoretical solutions need not be made first line as they often create more harm than expected. Its a good idea to try out new tech and advances, but with eyes open to the unintended consequences.
We have a solution. It's called a Battery Electric Car. It's literally free energy. Why not use it?
 

nwdiver

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Never said anything about it. You are in the midst of a straw argument, sir.
Ok.... so now is your chance. We have exponentially increasing amounts of surplus wind and solar. Why not use EVs to buffer it? Why waste so much energy when we can use it?

I'm pointing out that EVs are by far the most economic solution. What's better? How is that a 'straw man'?
 
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Tin Man

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Ok.... so now is your chance. We have exponentially increasing amounts of surplus wind and solar. Why not use EVs to buffer it? Why waste so much energy when we can use it?

I'm pointing out that EVs are by far the most economic solution. What's better? How is that a 'straw man'?
I'm saying it needs to be developed properly. Now it's too expensive. Not economical. Not affordable by half the population at least. Not fully developed technologically or economically. Not zero emissions or zero environmental impact. Have I left anything out?

Certainly the small particulate matter emitted in excess by gasoline vehicles should be improved. In the meantime, diesels have been a good temporary solution, but they aren't that affordable either. We all must keep trying and EV's are a good effort. But making an argument stating the obvious surplus of wind and solar is the same as saying we aren't using salt water or sand enough because there is a surplus.
 
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Tin Man

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We have a solution. It's called a Battery Electric Car. It's literally free energy. Why not use it?
I'm ready to receive my free EV, charger, garage, battery backup and solar panels. Please send a PM with the address in Nigeria for me to get this. I'm excited about it!
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I'm ready to receive my free EV, charger, garage, battery backup and solar panels. Please send a PM with the address in Nigeria for me to get this. I'm excited about it!

I have already asked him for this, I am still waiting.

In the mean time, I will continue to drive my half million mile 20 year old 50 MPG paid for Golf. And I have a spare, in case in cannot last until I too get my free EV and charging station.
 

BeetlePD

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Ooops greenercars.org - In their well-to-car snalysis, they rate the Model S as no cleaner than a Cruze Diesel, and a Hyundai Ioniq EV as only 1% cleaner thsn the gasoline Ioniq
 

nwdiver

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Ooops greenercars.org - In their well-to-car snalysis, they rate the Model S as no cleaner than a Cruze Diesel, and a Hyundai Ioniq EV as only 1% cleaner thsn the gasoline Ioniq
Only if the Model S is using grid mix... which most of them do not do most of the time. Plus that's a moving target. The grid keeps getting cleaner. :)
 

nwdiver

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I'm ready to receive my free EV, charger, garage, battery backup and solar panels. Please send a PM with the address in Nigeria for me to get this. I'm excited about it!
Didn't say it was free (Although the otherwise wasted energy effectively is). Is there a better way to reduce the amount of wind and solar curtailment?

I'm saying it needs to be developed properly. Now it's too expensive. Not economical. Not affordable by half the population at least. Not fully developed technologically or economically. Not zero emissions or zero environmental impact. Have I left anything out?
Let's assume all that is true. How else other than increasing the deployment of EVs would we 'develop them properly', decrease the cost and make them more affordable to the other half of the population? If you simply cannot afford an EV then obviously it's not for you since you can't afford it.... that's axiomatic. Point is that if you CAN afford an EV then it really should be your next car. The Model S only exists because people paid $140k for a roadster. The Model 3 only exists because people paid $100k for a Model S. The rumored ~$25k Model 2 will only exist because people paid $50k for a model 3. Tesla is no longer subsidized but none of this would exist if it hadn't been until recently. So you're leaving out how progress is driven.

How..... how exactly do you think we would get to a world where ~100% of our energy comes not from fools fuel but from the INCREDIBLY.... RIDICULOUSLY... ABSURDLY abundant wind and solar we're flooded with? ..... Magic? Solar Panels for $0.30/w wasn't 'Magic' it was Germany working down the cost curve with MASSIVE subsidies when solar was $5/w. That's how progress is driven. That's what you're leaving out.
 
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Tin Man

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Didn't say it was free (Although the otherwise wasted energy effectively is). Is there a better way to reduce the amount of wind and solar curtailment?



Let's assume all that is true. How else other than increasing the deployment of EVs would we 'develop them properly', decrease the cost and make them more affordable to the other half of the population? If you simply cannot afford an EV then obviously it's not for you since you can't afford it.... that's axiomatic. Point is that if you CAN afford an EV then it really should be your next car. The Model S only exists because people paid $140k for a roadster. The Model 3 only exists because people paid $100k for a Model S. The rumored ~$25k Model 2 will only exist because people paid $50k for a model 3. Tesla is no longer subsidized but none of this would exist if it hadn't been until recently. So you're leaving out how progress is driven.

How..... how exactly do you think we would get to a world where ~100% of our energy comes not from fools fuel but from the INCREDIBLY.... RIDICULOUSLY... ABSURDLY abundant wind and solar we're flooded with? ..... Magic? Solar Panels for $0.30/w wasn't 'Magic' it was Germany working down the cost curve with MASSIVE subsidies when solar was $5/w. That's how progress is driven. That's what you're leaving out.
Yeah, the "$35,000 model 3" ha ha.

Air is abundant and "free." I don't think even upper middle class people who live in cities can afford to set up a "free wind and solar energy capturing" EV, but maybe in the near future the business of EV's will be more advanced. For now, it's anything but "free" and anything but "zero emissions." There are many examples of government using their statist clout to raise rates and costs, as well as contractors taking their share in maintaining and setting up solar panels, charging stations, etc. so the market hasn't matured yet. For now, I'll drive diesel. Thanks.
 
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