Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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bhtooefr

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Your numbers on option 3 and 4 are a little high. RAV4 start at $25,650 for gassers and $27850 for hybrids. Given a $2200 upcharge for the hybrid, that's the one I would put in my driveway. Unfortunately, we drove the highlander first. With the better driving dynamics and third row, that would be the winner. Of course price then changes to $31,800 gasser versus $37,500 hybrid.
Worth noting that the new RAV4 is on the same platform as the next-gen Highlander. (Although, also, the next-gen Highlander is going down from a V6 to a 4-cylinder, same powertrain as the RAV4.)
 

bwilson4web

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There is a common misunderstanding that EV people are concerned about green house gasses. Interesting but many are motivated by operational cost and performance:
  • acceleration to speed limit - both our Std. Range Model 3 and BMW i3-REx reach the opposite side of an intersection before anyone else in part because we don't advertise our intention by reving up an engine. We floor the accelerator every time since it doesn't wear anything or hurt efficiency. Best of all, we're usually hundreds of yards ahead of the other traffic which makes choosing lanes much easier.
  • Cost per mile - from free chargers, $0.000/mi; from home charger, $0.025/mi, and; from SuperChargers, $0.036/mi. Heck, our EVs are the ultimate flex-fuel as we run just as well on natural gas, coal, nuclear, wind turbines, hydro, or solar cells. We really don't care about the source.
  • driver assistance - both have dynamic cruise control. The Tesla adds lane following and lane changing. So I can drive long distances 600-700 miles, solo, using my electronic co-pilot.
  • charging - takes about a 15-20 minute break every 120 miles or just under 2 hours. Just enough time for bathroom, coffee, and snack break. Take an hour meal break, and you've added 220 miles to the Tesla. In contrast, the BMW i3-REx is slower so we use premium gas in the 2.3 gallon tank every 1h 20 min. The BMW makes a comfortable, motorcycle trip.
So if our EVs save some CO{2}, good. If they don't, good too as they are cheap to operate and pretty well shame everyone else at traffic lights.

Bob Wilson
 
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Tin Man

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There is a common misunderstanding that EV people are concerned about green house gasses. .....
So if our EVs save some CO{2}, good. If they don't, good too as they are cheap to operate and pretty well shame everyone else at traffic lights.
Bob Wilson
To quote you from a past post:
Originally Posted by tikal
I think it is fair to say that the majority of hybrid buyers do it based primarily on environmental convictions (vs buying a similar sized efficient gasoline only vehicle).I am all for reducing our global environmental footprint.
Actually most are interested in saving Greenback dollars at the pump. The ones you're thinking of moved to EVs back in 2012 when they became common.
.....
Bob Wilson
Must be great to be able to shame everyone else at the "stoplight grand prix", for the privilege of buying an EV at a $50,000 price perhaps in order to save money...
 
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turbobrick240

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I'd be careful jumping off the line at green lights. There's frequently somebody who races to beat the yellow light and ends up running a red light. Getting T-boned isn't much fun, even in a Tesla.
 

tadawson

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If I had to stop every 120 miles, I'd consider hurting myself . . . we do more like 400 to 500 per stop (often more if I am driving alone . . .), and the stop is typically 15 to 20 mins tops. In the TDI, a day of cross country typicall involves a full tank in the AM, and refill at the overnight stop to repeat the next day.

Have I mentioned that I *loathe* wasting time travelling cross country? ? ? ?
 
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aja8888

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I just finished driving to Wisconsin and back to Texas. About 2900 miles, 99% freeway.

We stopped every 450 - 500 miles to fuel up and take a short break (roughly 15 minutes). My wife needed a stop in between since her bladder can't wait as long as mine :p. At freeway speeds (75+ MPH), we stopped about every 3 hours, generally to take a quick bathroom break and then hit the road (5 - 10 minutes). I really don't know what I would do with myself if I had to stop and "power up" every 120 miles.

I suspect the trip from Houston to northern Wisconsin would have taken an extra day in each direction with stops and 45 minute waits every 120 miles. Maybe in another 4 years when I turn 80 I will appreciate an electric car and more frequent stops on trips.
 

kjclow

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For us, it's the 5-10 minute stop every two hours (150 miles) and the 30-45 minute stop at 6 hours (450-500 miles) that includes fuel for both the vehicle and the occupants.
 

compu_85

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...except that to justify EV shortcomings, everyone uses environmental concerns and sometimes even bashes diesels, even if most diesel problems are arguably solved with the Jaguar 2.0 liter ingenioum diesel design. Mob mentality?

Must be great to be able to shame everyone else at the "stoplight grand prix", for the privilege of buying an EV at a $50,000 price perhaps in order to save money...

Well, you should start going after all the V6 TDI Audi buyers then too, if buying an expensive car somehow means your opinion is invalid :rolleyes:

Show me these EV shortcomings. There's a saying... butts in seats sells cars. And it's true. I always liked diesels because of the "instant" torque, reduced maintenance, and great driving experience.

Yes - a roadtrip might take a tad longer due to charging. But, for daily driving you spend 0 time charging.

Just this last weekend I took a trip from VA to NJ for a computer workshop. Charging added 0 time. The car charged as we slept, and when we stopped in Wilmington DE for a bio break and dinner, the car charged up to 100%, and was at 58% when we got home.

I'm done with iron butt roadtrips. Seeing how much less zapped I am when I arrive at the destination in the Tesla is amazing. The quick stretch ever 2 hours, excellent seats, and driver assistance stuff makes trips much less grating.

-J
 

Tin Man

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Well, you should start going after all the V6 TDI Audi buyers then too, if buying an expensive car somehow means your opinion is invalid :rolleyes:
Show me these EV shortcomings. There's a saying... butts in seats sells cars. And it's true. I always liked diesels because of the "instant" torque, reduced maintenance, and great driving experience.
Yes - a roadtrip might take a tad longer due to charging. But, for daily driving you spend 0 time charging.
Just this last weekend I took a trip from VA to NJ for a computer workshop. Charging added 0 time. The car charged as we slept, and when we stopped in Wilmington DE for a bio break and dinner, the car charged up to 100%, and was at 58% when we got home.
I'm done with iron butt roadtrips. Seeing how much less zapped I am when I arrive at the destination in the Tesla is amazing. The quick stretch ever 2 hours, excellent seats, and driver assistance stuff makes trips much less grating.
-J
Drinking the EV Kool Aid doesn't make it flawless. There are many of us that dislike driving around a computer and let's face it, we haven't unleashed the full effect of having a majority of cars being EV/computerized/etc.

As long as EV's remain a niche market with costs that are not under control and no real proof that they will go down, who cares. But forcing a definite money loser onto the public and having the average tax payer fund it is not my idea of fun or progress.

The revolution is not coming since solar panels are also a loser in the private home-owner market. Looking up Elon Musk's bad investment in a solar panel company is only a few clicks away.

Just like the early promise of improving care through use of computerized medical records has instead created a royal mess, so can IT screw up the personal mobility world as can be seen with electric scooters and perennial loser Uber. The Emperor has no clothes.

To make it simple, EV's need to make it in an open, free market. Not one rigged for failure by the EPA or anyone else and not funded by funds we don't even have and need to borrow.
 
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Tin Man

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Feds Ditching Electric Cars As Impractical
Federal agencies find electric cars not worth buying, despite executive order mandating alternative vehicle use.

US government agencies are finding expensive all-electric cars not worth buying because of the cost and infrastructure challenges involved. According to a Government Accountability Office (GAO) report released Monday, federal agencies are meeting the requirements of a 2015 executive order (revised in 2019) meant to reduce use of gasoline-powered vehicles by slashing their vehicle fleets and buying flex-fuel fuel cars that can also be filled up with regular gasoline.
PDF File Federal Vehicle Fleets
 

nwdiver

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Drinking the EV Kool Aid doesn't make it flawless. There are many of us that dislike driving around a computer and let's face it, we haven't unleashed the full effect of having a majority of cars being EV/computerized/etc.

As long as EV's remain a niche market with costs that are not under control and no real proof that they will go down, who cares. But forcing a definite money loser onto the public and having the average tax payer fund it is not my idea of fun or progress.

The revolution is not coming since solar panels are also a loser in the private home-owner market. Looking up Elon Musk's bad investment in a solar panel company is only a few clicks away.

Just like the early promise of improving care through use of computerized medical records has instead created a royal mess, so can IT screw up the personal mobility world as can be seen with electric scooters and perennial loser Uber. The Emperor has no clothes.

To make it simple, EV's need to make it in an open, free market. Not one rigged for failure by the EPA or anyone else and not funded by funds we don't even have and need to borrow.
LOL... you remind me of a friend of my Dads that submitted his retirement papers because a computer showed up on his desk ;)

It's more than a little insane to think that we should keep using paper medical records or keep burning minerals for energy. Try not to confuse poor implementation with poor concepts...
 
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Tin Man

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LOL... you remind me of a friend of my Dads that submitted his retirement papers because a computer showed up on his desk ;)

It's more than a little insane to think that we should keep using paper medical records or keep burning minerals for energy. Try not to confuse poor implementation with poor concepts...
What little clue you have, it is implementation that screws things up. You can't spin it without knowing my own background in computers and health care, which you don't. There are medical offices and nursing homes that are doing just that, converting back to or staying with paper records.

The economics of subsidized anything is beyond this discussion but college tuitions, EV's, New Jersey roads, and health care come to mind.
 
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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
The FlexFuel think is another regulatory joke. "Required" to buy FF capable vehicles, yet E85 is largely NOT what gets used (many areas do not even HAVE it available) and what is worse, most of these vehicles cost more to purchase AND use more fuel :p

Reminds me of California "hover" trimmers. They ban gas powered lawn mowers, but "trimmers" are OK, so they sell what are essentially lawn mowers (push mowers) with no wheels... then sell wheel kits for them. :rolleyes:

"But it isn't a mower, it is a trimmer!... oh, and please don't notice the hordes of homeless people pooping on our sidewalks. It is the evil gas lawn mower and cans of WD40 that are the real problem". Gimme a break.... :cool:

I should add, though, that with better engine management, the use of E85 is more available. It used to be they actually had a fuel sensor that detected the amount of ethanol and then fed that information to the ECU. Of course, these $700 sensors were a common failure item, so in addition to the added cost of the vehicle purchase, the poorer fuel economy, you also had this to contend with. But now they do some very careful calculations based on knock sensor, oxygen sensor (fuel trim) inputs to better "guess" the ethanol content. So no extra parts to fail. Which also means that many vehicles that are not even graced with a "flexfuel" badge somewhere on the body are still indeed FF capable. But again, E85 availability AND someone actually reading the owner's manual would still be required. Then the fact that E85 while potentially giving a minor bump in peak power output is also paired with poorer fuel economy, often on vehicles that are already abysmal to begin with (my brother's 5.7L Tundra comes to mind... regular E10 nets it an awful 14 MPG, E85 takes it to about 12, and it isn't like it needs any more power, so....).
 
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compu_85

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Drinking the EV Kool Aid doesn't make it flawless. There are many of us that dislike driving around a computer and let's face it, we haven't unleashed the full effect of having a majority of cars being EV/computerized/etc.
So you dislike "driving a computer" so much you went out and got a newer BMW :confused:

2 of the 3 EVs we've bought didn't come with any subsudy. In fact, Virginia charges us more to register them :rolleyes: And soon Tesla cars will have no rebate.

I have a fair bit of experience with computers in healthcare at this point. Many of the drs I support wouldn't mind going back to paper, but putting everything in EMR gives better results to our patients, and means we can protect the data more easily. It also helps a bunch with billing insurance, which is a good chunk of what makes the company I work for possible.

-J
 

Tin Man

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So you dislike "driving a computer" so much you went out and got a newer BMW :confused:
2 of the 3 EVs we've bought didn't come with any subsudy. In fact, Virginia charges us more to register them :rolleyes: And soon Tesla cars will have no rebate.
I have a fair bit of experience with computers in healthcare at this point. Many of the drs I support wouldn't mind going back to paper, but putting everything in EMR gives better results to our patients, and means we can protect the data more easily. It also helps a bunch with billing insurance, which is a good chunk of what makes the company I work for possible.
-J
Hard to see the big picture, isn't it. EMR is a push toward "lowest common denominator" when it comes to work flow and includes much unnecessary garbage, including government mandates, without which your job might be considered unnecessary. But I think its more than that. IT people have abused their privileges mightily by ignoring, by necessity, the end user, converting doctors into data entry clerks and insurance enablers.

Sorry.
 
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bwilson4web

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With my wife and I, our first gas car, a Plymouth 400 wagon, the trip pattern was:
  • 3 hour first leg - we're fresh and relaxed, go for it and then comes the first biology break. Fill the tank.
  • 2 hour segments - biology breaks and walk arounds. Top off the tank.
Curiously this matches the same profile as our Tesla. Only we're multiplexing with a ~20 minute charging session. Stop at Waffle House or mini-market for biology break and leave wife, put car on charger, walk dogs back to wife, and fetch car to load everyone up.

At one time, I would share a 12 hour, 700 mile trip with a co-worker between Wash DC and Huntsville. He would not let me drive his pony car, always drove +15 mph over speed limit, and had one biology break midway. It was not a fun trip but a chore.

Bob Wilson
 
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kjclow

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I'd be careful jumping off the line at green lights. There's frequently somebody who races to beat the yellow light and ends up running a red light. Getting T-boned isn't much fun, even in a Tesla.
Around Charlotte, no one stops or slows down for yellow lights. They are therefore going full tilt into the intersection when the light is red. I wait a good five seconds to make sure nothing in moving to my right or left if I'm the first one for the green. A co-worker said years ago that he figured out how to drive in Charlotte. A yellow light means three more and a red light means five more.
 

compu_85

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But I think its more than that. IT people have abused their privileges mightily by ignoring, by necessity, the end user, converting doctors into data entry clerks and insurance enablers.

Sorry.
Actually that's quite insulting, since what I do is help provide a system where doctors can spend more time helping patients, and less time worrying about the IT systems, office systems, dealing with insurance companies, etc. I spend a HUGE portion of my day worrying about my end users (doctors, other practice staff) and what they are trying to do (make sure people can see).

So before you go around calling people power abusers you might want to think before you speak. :rolleyes:

-J
 

Tin Man

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Actually that's quite insulting, since what I do is help provide a system where doctors can spend more time helping patients, and less time worrying about the IT systems, office systems, dealing with insurance companies, etc. I spend a HUGE portion of my day worrying about my end users (doctors, other practice staff) and what they are trying to do (make sure people can see).
So before you go around calling people power abusers you might want to think before you speak. :rolleyes:
-J
Actually, converting my generalization, which is certainly based on experience, into a personal insult is cute. Glad to have you on board. Now please try to look at other EMR's as well as how physicians are treated. Thanks.
 

Tin Man

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2 of the 3 EVs we've bought didn't come with any subsudy. In fact, Virginia charges us more to register them :rolleyes: And soon Tesla cars will have no rebate.
-J
Tesla Raises Price of Model 3 in China Ahead of Tariff Jump
Tesla and its startup rivals must soon contend with an onslaught of new EVs from traditional auto makers, which have to start producing EVs in China this year to satisfy a government mandate.
China’s Retaliatory Tariffs Could Disrupt Tesla’s Recent Progress
Higher import tariffs in China and other challenges could offset Tesla’s recent ratings upgrade and its improved outlook for Model 3 production. Photo illustration: Laura Kammermann
Those tried-and-tested brands will likely pose the biggest threat to Tesla’s dreams of massive China sales, said Janet Lewis, the head of industrials and transportation research in Asia at Macquarie Group , with mainstream Chinese consumers known for favoring established names. In their mind, it will still be “better to buy from your local BMW , VW or Toyota dealer,” Ms. Lewis said.
That increased competition comes after seismic changes in Chinese subsidies. After having spent billions of dollars subsidizing EV production, Beijing this year drastically reduced subsidies and will cancel them next year.
Shorn of handouts, the numbers no longer add up for most EV makers, and private investors are now mostly shunning them.

NIO Inc., the bellwether for China’s EV start-ups, lost $856 million in the six months ending March and has laid off a quarter of its staff globally. Despite that, it secured a $1.4 billion investment from a government fund in June. A company spokeswoman said staff cuts were needed to improve efficiency and that plans were still on track.
While other EV companies have burned through less cash than NIO, few are nearing profitability. Shanghai-based WM Motor Technology Co., which is backed by Baidu Inc., sold 8,536 cars in the first half of 2019, but it needs to sell at least 70,000 a year to start making money, Freeman Shen, its chief executive, said earlier this month. He added it was unclear how soon that would happen. “The market is much slower than we thought,” he said.
Examples of government mandates that may cause companies to lose billions.
 
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Tin Man

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What do the EV experts think about spontaneous fires in hot climates?

Life, death, and spontaneous combustion — here's why the debate about Tesla fires just got more fierceI may have a silly concern about having a Tesla charge up in my hot 110 degree F garage and catching fire. Maybe too much concern, but the house would burn down.....
A damaged battery cell — whether the damage has been done by some kind of impact, water damage, or manufacturing defect — can go into "thermal runaway." That's when the temperature in the cell rapidly increases and then triggers the same reaction in another cell and another one after that. That is called "cellular propagation," and in some cases it manages to stop itself inside the battery.
In other cases, though, you've got a fire on your hands.
 

Tin Man

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So you dislike "driving a computer" so much you went out and got a newer BMW :confused:
Yeah, its sad that BMW iDrive has so many computer glitches that it makes Windows computers, long thought of as toys at MIT and still quite clunky, are better.... Just look through the posts on several BMW boards that discuss the connectivity apps to see how unreliable. And BMW has had a big start on this compared to other car makers....
 

bizzle

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Life, death, and spontaneous combustion — here's why the debate about Tesla fires just got more fierceI may have a silly concern about having a Tesla charge up in my hot 110 degree F garage and catching fire. Maybe too much concern, but the house would burn down.....
Yes, that seems like a silly concern given that the article you cited, and presumably read through before posting here, states:

We should note here that Archer said across the whole auto industry, electric vehicles catch fire at slightly lower rates than cars with internal combustion engines — and hybrids do so at much lower rates, as their high-voltage batteries are smaller — and that he said fighting an electric vehicle fire was no more difficult than fighting an internal-combustion-engine fire for those who know what they're doing.
 

kjclow

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Yes, that seems like a silly concern given that the article you cited, and presumably read through before posting here, states:
From what I remember around here, many of the fires associated with hybrids or electrical cars started in the charging stations. Presumably due to improper installations.
 
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kjclow

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Worth noting that the new RAV4 is on the same platform as the next-gen Highlander. (Although, also, the next-gen Highlander is going down from a V6 to a 4-cylinder, same powertrain as the RAV4.)
I thought that the Rav4 was on the Corolla platform and the Highlander was on the Camry platform. I know on the current generation, the hybrid Highlander gets bumped to a V6.
 

Tin Man

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Yes, that seems like a silly concern given that the article you cited, and presumably read through before posting here, states:
Uh, it would not be silly if you actually read my post re: 110 degree F garage and looking for an "expert" opinion.

I would expect that the majority by percentage of cars that burn would be gasoline ones, lower percentage diesel, and much lower or not at all electric. But it ain't so, is it!
 
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bizzle

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Uh, it would not be silly if you actually read my post re: 110 degree F garage and looking for an "expert" opinion.

I would expect that the majority by percentage of cars that burn would be gasoline ones, lower percentage diesel, and much lower or not at all electric. But it ain't so, is it!
It is so once you read the details in the article. Taking every single gasoline based transportation in the United States and comparing how many people die "by fire" compared to any Tesla accident that involves *any* fire is a disingenuous comparison, as the article explained. Once the comparison is restricted to deaths by fire among similar vehicles then statistics reveal EVs are less likely to directly cause deaths of their occupants due to fires and hybrids even less likely than EVs.

That's not my opinion; the explanation is in the article you cited. I'm merely reposting relevant points from within the article you cited into my responses to you.

Whatever concerns you have over your garage (regardless of its temperature) in regards to battery storage will be more dangerous when considering gasoline storage. Anyway, not sure the point you're trying to make here other than digging your heels in after I read the article you posted and corrected some information in the thread. Obviously batteries are stored in garages across the United States and they don't explode whenever it gets hot. My outdoor temperature is currently 110F. The garage is probably well over 130F and I haven't heard any batteries popping yet. Probably won't quell your fear of combusting batteries in desert temperatures, but I'm not convinced that was an actual fear anyway.
 

bhtooefr

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I thought that the Rav4 was on the Corolla platform and the Highlander was on the Camry platform. I know on the current generation, the hybrid Highlander gets bumped to a V6.
Previously, that was correct, but the new RAV4 is on TNGA-K (same as the Camry), and the upcoming Highlander will have the same 4-cylinder system as the RAV4.
 
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