Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

[oilhammer]

It would seem to me that there is flawed logic in the purchase of a Volt if you can go a year or two without ever using the gasoline engine. Because you are just dragging around a useless lump of metal along with all the bits necessary to make it run. I'd pick an all electric car if that were the case. And let's face it, if you can stand some of the looks and driving characteristics of the Volt (I have not driven the newer one, but the previous one was nothing special), then you could probably stomach the Bolt. Actually the Bolt may drive a little better, even if it looks like some reject from a 1995 failed attempt at a live action reboot of the Jetzon's.

 

[El Dobro]

Some of the guys that go for years without using gas do it for the challenge, especially since the Bolt wasn't out at the time the Volt came out. Most of us do use the ICE now and then. I've used 1.1 gallons in the last 1100 miles.

 

[car54]

I always try to not use the ice because the mpg gauge just keeps climbing. But the reason i got the volt and not a bolt was to have one car for roadtrips and commuting. Ive taken the Volt on a 550 mile roadtrip and with charging managed to do the trip on 8.2 gallons of gas. It really is an amazing vehicle and for me nearly perfect. I could commute 2-3 days before it needs to be charged and still drive cross country whenever.

 

[SnowCub]

Clarity

Went to a Honda Clarity drive event at the local mall. I was actually impressed with the thing. At 6'4" I could fit, probably because they don't have sunroofs. It drove decently and is now on my list for when I get my next car. I've been looking into plug in Hybrids for quite some time, haven't been able to actually fit into the driver's seat of one till this weekend.

 

[oilhammer]

The Clarity is another one that seems to be designed by someone who went out of his or her way to make it look goofy. I'm sure its technology is pretty neat, though.

 

[AntonLargiader]

It would seem to me that there is flawed logic in the purchase of a Volt if you can go a year or two without ever using the gasoline engine.

Ultimately yes, but IMO this car's mission is to get people into an EV without range anxiety, and from there the owner will realize, "Hey, I can do all of my daily driving on a 40-mile battery" and then go and buy a BEV.

Some people - many, I suspect - need that kind of help to get them over the hump.

 

[oilhammer]

Could be, and also if you HAD to only have one car, and it HAD to provide a couple different things.

To me the Volt is like an El Camino... it is two things, but not especially great at either. And the cost is quite high, in my opinion. But hey, if it is one less giant SUV on the road, and it works for you, I am all for it!

 

[CraziFuzzy]

Going with the assumption that most drivers can be mostly served with a 40 mile daily range, but have the occasional trip over that, then you end up with a few scenarios. In a single car family, or solo driver, the 40-mile plug-in can do the job on it's own. In a multi-car family, an 80-mile BEV and a cheap ICE would likely do the job best. Probably the most capable 'family fleet' would be an 80-mile BEV and a 40-mile plugin hybrid.

 

[AntonLargiader]

In a multi-car family, an 80-mile BEV and a cheap ICE would likely do the job best. Probably the most capable 'family fleet' would be an 80-mile BEV and a 40-mile plugin hybrid.

We've been mulling over the options as we will probably become a 2-car family within the next year or possibly month. Right now we have the TDI and we borrow the Volt for half the year but when we don't have the Volt it's a bit tight with moving the kids and me around town. My work moved from being on a super convenient bus route to being not convenient at all. I can ride a bicycle or motorcycle but there is rain and the need to carry packages and things.

We will probably add a Leaf which would be your first scenario. Part of me also wants to add a minivan for trips (it's just way nicer to have the extra space) but we would need it very rarely and can probably borrow one.

 

[German_1er_diesel]

Going with the assumption that most drivers can be mostly served with a 40 mile daily range, but have the occasional trip over that, then you end up with a few scenarios. In a single car family, or solo driver, the 40-mile plug-in can do the job on it's own. In a multi-car family, an 80-mile BEV and a cheap ICE would likely do the job best. Probably the most capable 'family fleet' would be an 80-mile BEV and a 40-mile plugin hybrid.

We are a 2-car household. (Ten-year old BMW 118d for me, 2.5-year-old diesel Juke for her, soon to be replaced by some kind of van.)
If there was an EV that was fun to drive, had the range I need for my daily commute (more than 80 miles...) and was affordable, I'd consider it to replace the BMW.
If there was an affordable plug-in van with shortish electric range, it could serve as the family hauler.

Since both vehicles don't exist (yet), our family van purchase will end up being diesel powered again.

 

[oilhammer]

I would have thought a small electric van would be great for delivery service, too, but the range is not there. We service a LOT of fleet vehicles... I have a 2014 Transit Connect here now that has over 125k miles on it already... that averages to about 85 miles per day, but that includes all the weekend days and holidays that this vehicle is not used, so its average is probably closer to 100 miles a business day. I do not think a loaded down Connect running hard all day long in hot and cold is going to have sufficient range on electric alone unless it was half again its weight in battery packs. Smaller, crowded urban areas possibly could work, though.

What I find most humorous is the 2.5L gasoline engine + 4sp automatic transmission in this thing shows an average MPG on its readout at 22 MPG. My Sprinter banged off a 28 MPG tank last week, LMAO... And it is three times the size.

 

[bhtooefr]

It doesn't look as bad (it's still bad) when you remove the extra energy in diesel - your Sprinter would've burned about 1345 Wh/mi, versus the Transit Connect's 1532 Wh/mi.

 

[oilhammer]

It doesn't look as bad (it's still bad) when you remove the extra energy in diesel - your Sprinter would've burned about 1345 Wh/mi, versus the Transit Connect's 1532 Wh/mi.

No, its worse. Stand inside a Transit Connect (well, you can't, actually), then stand up and walk around in the Sprinter.

Of course, if we get a diesel Connect here next year, then obviously that will be a different story BUT, Ford will still undoubtedly curse us with automatic only, and the buy in cost will be such that most fleets won't bother and they'll just buy the cheap ones and continue to plow money into their fuel tanks at an alarming rate. Same as always.

 

[CraziFuzzy]

We are a 2-car household. (Ten-year old BMW 118d for me, 2.5-year-old diesel Juke for her, soon to be replaced by some kind of van.)
If there was an EV that was fun to drive, had the range I need for my daily commute (more than 80 miles...) and was affordable, I'd consider it to replace the BMW.
If there was an affordable plug-in van with shortish electric range, it could serve as the family hauler.
Since both vehicles don't exist (yet), our family van purchase will end up being diesel powered again.

I do think the pacifica hybrid has like a 30+ miles electric range, and pretty aggressive hybrid after that. MSRP around $40k (same as a new BMW 118d).

 

[1854sailor]

And now for something completely different, Tesla Model 3 Brake Problems.

 

[bhtooefr]

IIRC the diesel is actually the base model, but my point was that 22 vs. 28 MPG isn't a fair comparison of efficiency - 22 MPG vs. 25 MPG gasoline equivalent is more fair.

Basically, the Sprinter is significantly more efficient given its size, but it's not as good as it seems just from the MPG figures.

 

[oilhammer]

I am looking at the volume difference. I'd imagine that a comparable diesel Transit Connect, which could probably make do with a 1.6L size diesel, would tag 40 or close to it.

Can't imagine what a gasoline fueled Sprinter consumes, they did sell a handful of 3.5L V6 gassers here, but for cheap as most sat on Dodge dealer lots gathering dust. I've only ever even seen one (on a dealer lot... gathering dust). An E-class with the same engine barely gets 25, though.

 

[bhtooefr]

Worryingly, Ford's said that the 1.5 diesel will get "over 30" on the highway, which makes me wonder if the aerodynamic design on the second-gen Transit Connect is just utterly broken.

 

[oilhammer]

Could be the gearing is not ideal for high speed, too. Remember, it is a work van, and has a pretty substantial payload for its size. I'd bet it will do pretty well regardless.

Reports already of people hitting 50 with the Equinox diesel, which is jaw dropping to me.

 

[Rob Mayercik]

Could be the gearing is not ideal for high speed, too. Remember, it is a work van, and has a pretty substantial payload for its size. I'd bet it will do pretty well regardless.
Reports already of people hitting 50 with the Equinox diesel, which is jaw dropping to me.

That might be the "average MPG" display on the instrument panel - I just spent a week in a gasoline Equinox on a business trip, and I was able to push that figure up to 44 with just two 25-mile runs on the highway. Still impressive, though - never expected to see higher than 35, to be honest, but it was on pretty flat roads.

Around town, though, that dropped back into the mid-20s. Admittedly, that wasn't too bad for what the vehicle is, but I really didn't like the way the thing responded to pushing the accelerator: a fair bit of lag while it figured what gear to downshift to if already moving, and it seemed to take a LOT of pedal to get going from full stop, which was then a pause then high-rev, agressive pickup. What are the people programming the throttle response on cars these days thinking?

 

[oilhammer]

The little turbo gas engine in the Equinox is working pretty hard, I agree. GM did a good job of masking the engine thrashing about, but they kind of negated that with a nice big tachometer staring you in the face. Although I suppose most Equinox buyers don't pay attention to that anyway. Heck, most cannot pay attention to the dipstick, which on these newer GDI engines, especially the turbocharged ones, is critical.


I do not think it is necessarily the programming of the throttle response, it is just physics. You cannot have a 1.5L engine push a portly beast like an Equinox off the line through a slushbox without a turbo, and that turbo takes a second to get some boost building. I have never driven the 2.0L turbo gas Equinox (the other gasoline engine), but I suspect it is better in that regard.

 

[DPM]

Looking at UK imp mpg figures, the Connect is about 6-8mpg worse than better half's C4 (with the previous gen 1.6 HDI) which jives with gearing and aero differences.
But the urban rating is still 50-62 for the diesel and highway 58-76, depending on gearbox/ startstop etc.

compared to the few petrol models (all 1.0 turbos) being 42-55 urban...

 

[German_1er_diesel]

I do think the pacifica hybrid has like a 30+ miles electric range, and pretty aggressive hybrid after that. MSRP around $40k (same as a new BMW 118d).

Yeah but: I'd need to grey import a Pacifica Hybrid into Germany.
Doable. A 40,000 USD car could be shipped to Bremerhaven for about 1500 EUR, plus a bit for insurance. Then about 3,600€ import duty and 7,600€ VAT.
Then I'd have it converted to European lighting regulations, pay import duty on it, and then have it emissions/safety certified through Individual Vehicle certification. All doable, probably 2,000€. In the end, the whole thing would cost me about 50,000€.
But then I'd be thousands of miles from the next location to have warranty repairs performed.
And 50,000€ is way more than I want to spend.

Meanwhile, almost-loaded Tourneo Connect Titanium LWBs (basically what they sell as a "Transit Connect Wagon" in North America) LWBs, less than a year old, with a 5-year warranty can be had for 20,000€. Drive-away price including all taxes and registration fees. New MSRP is about 38,000€.
-> Ford diesel with a proper warranty and five dealers in a 20-km radius around me or Chrysler hybrid for 2.5x the money with zero dealers on the continent.

Easy.

 

[German_1er_diesel]

Looking at UK imp mpg figures, the Connect is about 6-8mpg worse than better half's C4...
compared to the few petrol models (all 1.0 turbos) being 42-55 urban...

The gas Connect only comes in short wheelbase. We want the LWB, so it's diesel or nothing.

 

[German_1er_diesel]

I am looking at the volume difference. I'd imagine that a comparable diesel Transit Connect, which could probably make do with a 1.6L size diesel, would tag 40 or close to it.

The Connect diesels are all 1.5s. 75, 100 or 120hp versions do exist, the most powerful one comes with a pretty smooth dual clutch (Getrag 6DCT451) if you don't want the three-pedal thing.
With a manual, the "big engine" has 270 Nm, with the dual clutch it's 300 Nm.

I wish they would just put the 150hp/370Nm 2.0 from the Focus into the Connect, but they don't.

At my old job, we had a 2013 short wheelbase cargo Transit Connect with the old 1.6 diesel, 116hp and a 6-speed manual. That thing was actually fun to drive, but spent most of its life on the autobahn, pedal-to-the-metal, close to the 170kph-ish top speed. Getting about 7.5 l/100 km.

Here's Spritmonitor's statistics:
https://www.spritmonitor.de/de/uebe...nstyear_s=2013&exactmodel=connect&powerunit=2

Automatics: 6.85 l/100km https://www.spritmonitor.de/de/uebe...2013&gearing=2&exactmodel=connect&powerunit=2

Manuals: 6.49 l/100km https://www.spritmonitor.de/de/uebe...2013&gearing=1&exactmodel=connect&powerunit=2

 

[bhtooefr]

In the US, our Transit Connect diesel will come with an 8-speed torque converter automatic (as will the 2.0 naturally aspirated gas engine). Note that the Ford DCTs are considered legendarily bad in the US market - as in, they may have actually single-handedly killed the Focus in the US market.

 

[German_1er_diesel]

In the US, our Transit Connect diesel will come with an 8-speed torque converter automatic (as will the 2.0 naturally aspirated gas engine). Note that the Ford DCTs are considered legendarily bad in the US market - as in, they may have actually single-handedly killed the Focus in the US market.

Ford Europe is switching models to a 8-speed torque converter, starting with the Galaxy. I guess the refreshed Connects will have than one too.
Ford uses two kinds of DCTs. The 6DCT250 (dry clutches, shifts with electromechanical actuators) for low-torque applications (not sure whether Europe ever got it) and the 6DCT450/451 (450Nm rating, hydraulic actuators, wet clutches, apparently pretty reliable)

I'm pretty sure the American market Focus has the 6DCT250. Europe gets torque converter automatics on the 1.0 and 1.5 Ecoboost cars and the 6DCT451 on diesels.

 

[bhtooefr]

Yeah, we got the 6DCT250 on the 1.6 Fiestas and 2.0 Focuses. (The EcoBoost motors (1.0 and 1.6 (ST) in the Fiesta, 1.0, 2.0 (ST), and 2.3 (RS) in the Focus) were manual-only.)

 

[German_1er_diesel]

For the Mk7 Fiesta, the automatic was a 4-speed, and it only came in a 80-ish hp 1.4. Automatics in subcompacts are usually only bought by septugenarians anyway.
The current Mk8 Fiesta has a 6-sped torque converter auto version with a 100-hp 1.0 Ecoboost. All natural aspirated Fiestas, all 125- and 140hp 1.0 Ecoboosts, both diesels and the new 1.5 Ecoboost ST are manual-only.

The Mk3 Focus is being replaced by the Mk4 this summer. The early price list has three 1.0 Ecoboost versions (manual only) and two 1.5 diesels (the more powerful one has an optional 8-speed torque converter auto).
The lineup is going to be fleshed out later. 2.0 4-cylinder diesels and 1.5 3-cylinder Ecoboosts are coming, ST gas/diesel and RS versions as well.
https://www.ford.de/content/dam/guxeu/de/documents/price-list/cars/new-focus/PL-new_ford_focus.pdf

The last two months, the outgoing Mk3 Focus was #3 and #4 in the German new car registrations. I'm sure the deals are good.

 

[oilhammer]

Funny the double clutch auto from Ford was mentioned, as a dead Focus so-equipped was dropped off via tow truck overnight.

Those things are AWFUL. Shame, because the 3-pedal Focus, even with the lackluster gas engines we get stuck with, are not a horrible car really, and drive pretty decent.