Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

[bhtooefr]

It is my understanding that most if not all crude oil refining produces gasoline as well, so avoiding gasoline production is not economically feasible. It seems the more diesel produced, the more gasoline will be too.

This brings the whole diesel thing to a head if all we do is increase demand for diesel yet create more gasoline vehicle pollution. It makes sense that most if not all refineries favor diesel as it is in high demand and produce less gasoline when they balance out the refining process. The higher price of diesel fuel reflects this, especially ULSD which can more easily be exported.
TM

You can do some cracking of the end product, but you're still going to get some gasoline.

European refineries end up sending us their gasoline, and receiving our diesel in exchange, and that's been going on for years, as I understand.

 

[kjclow]

It is my understanding that most if not all crude oil refining produces gasoline as well, so avoiding gasoline production is not economically feasible. It seems the more diesel produced, the more gasoline will be too.

You can only squeeze so much end product out of a barrel of oil. The source of the oil will dictate the higher fraction of either gasoline or distillate fuels. They can then crack the distillate fuels and force a higher fraction of gasoline but at the end of the day, the overall amount of refined goods will be the same.

Assume a barrel of crude is 50 gallons. It is refined (boiled, condensed, filtered) and produces 15 gallons of gas, 15 gallons of distillate fuels, and 20 gallons of other products. Take 5 gallons of the distillate fuels and 5 gallons of the heavier fraction of other products and run through the cracker to force an additional 8 gallons of gas and 2 gallons of other products which may be different from the first set of other products.

At the end of the day, your 50 gallon barrel of crude produced 23 gallons of gas, 10 gallons of distillate fuels, and 17 gallons of other products. This is a very simple explanation that does not take production losses into consideration.

You can do some cracking of the end product, but you're still going to get some gasoline.

European refineries end up sending us their gasoline, and receiving our diesel in exchange, and that's been going on for years, as I understand.

Unless things have changed dramatically over the last few years, the Gulf Coast refineries produce somewhere around 70% of the worlds fuel.

 

[El Dobro]

From what I was quoted for a solar purchase, the Fed incentive (which will be reduced after 2019) would make it almost $13,000 and there are no state incentives, other than no tax (for now, new governor). I went with a purchase quote because of the stories neighbors with solar told me about lease plans. A couple of neighbors with houses up for sale are having a hard time because potential buyers have no interest in taking over the lease.

My city's residents, including Gummint, seem to have no real interest in solar, with my neighborhood about the only area that has any and they are sporadic installations at that. With all that in mind, along with less than $1100 a year in electrical use, I decided against it. If I hit the lottery I may be interested, but more than likely, I'd move the @#$% out of this state.

 

[CraziFuzzy]

My wife and I were set on a Niro but after participating on a couple Niro forums the owners say that the highway efficiency is lacking. It's much like any other EV or PHEV in that once you start going over 60 mph the mileage plummets, which is something we don't have to worry about with the TDI (it often seems like efficiency *increases* the faster one drives).

You have to keep things in perspective about this though. Sure, an EV gets less efficiency at higher speeds. A TDI may get higher efficiency at higher speeds (to a point, of course), but this is not because the TDI is working better at those speeds - the ICE has a lot of fixed losses in it just to have the engine running - so the faster you are going, the less those losses are relevant. It still is taking a lot more work to push your vehicle at 80mph than it is to push it at 50mph, no matter what the fuel source is - but the EV doesn't have near as much fixed losses, so you actually see the impact of speed more readily.

Actuall energy use, and most likely cost, an EV is going to use a lot less than an ICE, no matter what the speed.

 

[turbobrick240]

I wonder at what speeds a newer tdi will return the highest FE. On a level, long, uninterrupted stretch of steady state cruising I would think the highest FE numbers might be at between 45-55 mph. I don't have the patience to test that sort of thing, but there must be some hyper-milers out there who would know.

 

[kjclow]

On my 2000 TDI Beetle it was right around 59 mph with tach around 1900 rpm. I hit 56 mpg on a run to the Outerbanks and back in the same day, just over 600 miles. Lots of two and four lane state roads with 55 mph posted limit. I've not had the need or paths to find out the sweet spot for the JSW on a complete tank of fuel. I have noticed that it seems to return the best mileage (computer numbers) while cruising at about 73 mph.

 

[oilhammer]

https://electrek.co/2018/02/07/mercedes-benz-electric-esprinter-van/

New eSprinter (based on the new-for-2019 3rd gen Sprinter... more specifically, the FWD version), which we will not get here.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

https://electrek.co/2018/02/07/mercedes-benz-electric-esprinter-van/
New eSprinter (based on the new-for-2019 3rd gen Sprinter... more specifically, the FWD version), which we will not get here.

Not unexpected. They have to do something to make their fleet capable of driving in European cities. That said, with only 93 miles of range, they won't be traveling very far outside of those cities very regularly.

 

[turbobrick240]

Harley Davidson is going to produce an e-hog. Looks cool, but I don't think the Hells Angels will be lining up to buy one.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/motorcycles/a16316102/harley-davidson-confirms-first-production-electric-motorcycle/

 

[aja8888]

Harley Davidson is going to produce an e-hog. Looks cool, but I don't think the Hells Angels will be lining up to buy one.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/motorcycles/a16316102/harley-davidson-confirms-first-production-electric-motorcycle/

I miss my old XLCH and wouldn't be caught dead on an E-Harley. Truly a sacrilege!

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Harley Davidson is going to produce an e-hog. Looks cool, but I don't think the Hells Angels will be lining up to buy one.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/motorcycles/a16316102/harley-davidson-confirms-first-production-electric-motorcycle/

Harley’s sales are tanking because they haven’t really updated their product line in ages and their core buyers are getting older. They have to do something to stay relevant or face going out of business.

 

[turbobrick240]

Yeah, it's undoubtedly a smart business move for Harley. It just seems like an odd juxtaposition with Harley's traditional image/products that aren't particularly known for their efficiency and refinement. A silent Harley just seems weird. It's a pretty good illustration how the times are changing.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Yeah, it's undoubtedly a smart business move for Harley. It just seems like an odd juxtaposition with Harley's traditional image/products that aren't particularly known for their efficiency and refinement. A silent Harley just seems weird. It's a pretty good illustration how the times are changing.

Their electric concept was anything but silent. They either put straight-cut gears in it or some other noisemaker that was obnoxiously loud for no apparent reason. We’ll see if this carries on into production. If it does, I doubt they’ll sell well

 

[oilhammer]

They just announced the HD factory here in Missouri is closing. Slow sales. Although really, motorcycle sales in general are suffering largely due to the older baby boomers getting even older and less able to ride and the younger folks simply not wanting the risks involved in riding. I include myself in the second category. I'd LOVE to ride, but I am scared ****less to do so. I have a wife and child at home, I cannot risk being disabled by some dumb broad on a cell phone piloting a Yukon into me.

 

[Tdijarhead]

They just announced the HD factory here in Missouri is closing. Slow sales. Although really, motorcycle sales in general are suffering largely due to the older baby boomers getting even older and less able to ride and the younger folks simply not wanting the risks involved in riding. I include myself in the second category. I'd LOVE to ride, but I am scared ****less to do so. I have a wife and child at home, I cannot risk being disabled by some dumb broad on a cell phone piloting a Yukon into me.

Yeah put me in that category. I even still have my motorcycle license from when I was a kid and didn’t care.

I have a friend in the medical field he says they call them donorcycles because they get so many parts so often from the riders. Gives new meaning to the concept of “parting out” .

 

[oilhammer]

Yeah put me in that category. I even still have my motorcycle license from when I was a kid and didn’t care.

I have a friend in the medical field he says they call them donorcycles because they get so many parts so often from the riders. Gives new meaning to the concept of “parting out” .

Yep, in one of my teenage jobs I worked with a guy who was going to school to be an EMT, and on his very first "ridealong" in a fire/rescue truck, he found out the young kids on crotch rockets were called organ donors, and they had a "sniff test" they did when they arrived to pick up whatever was left of them. The sniff test was to determine if they were smokers or not, because good healthy young men who do not smoke have lots of good organs, but smokers got immediately passed by. He always said they should require an organ donor card be done whenever someone got a motorcycle license. Brain injury (even with a helmet) is what causes a lot of the deaths. But the organs are often still good.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

They just announced the HD factory here in Missouri is closing. Slow sales. Although really, motorcycle sales in general are suffering largely due to the older baby boomers getting even older and less able to ride and the younger folks simply not wanting the risks involved in riding. I include myself in the second category. I'd LOVE to ride, but I am scared ****less to do so. I have a wife and child at home, I cannot risk being disabled by some dumb broad on a cell phone piloting a Yukon into me.

I'm with you. Jason and I would be very interested in riding, but the the risks of doing so around here are too great. If we lived in a less populated area, we'd reconsider.

 

[kjclow]

same reasons I won't ride my bicycle to work. I'm only five miles but would be lucky to make it one trip without being run off the two lane roads that were outdated 20+ years ago when I moved here. My five mile commute can take almost an hour at the wrong time.

 

[bhtooefr]

That's a factor in why I don't end up cycle commuting myself - when I'm on the roads, I'm having to ride at maximum attack and still not comfortable. There's a bike trail that covers about half of my commute, although accessing it means I have to go half a mile the wrong way to get to it, and then I've found that cutting through a cement company's driveway and an oil pipeline terminal's driveway bypasses about a mile of having to share roads with cars.

(And then there's the whole, carry the trike outside, put the panniers and lights on, switch shoes when I get to work (because on a recumbent trike, you really need clipless), etc., etc.)

 

[Chris]

I actively motorcycled for 30 years (mainly BMW's) including rallies and daily commuting.
Moving to Michigan (from Baltimore suburbs) took much of the fun out of it but the tipping point came with the current level of texting and general carelessness on the road.
Sold the last motorcycle 4 1/2 years ago and life goes on.

The only thing I find scarier is bicycling, sharing the road (for the same reasons, but with a speed differential built in).

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

I actively motorcycled for 30 years (mainly BMW's) including rallies and daily commuting.
Moving to Michigan (from Baltimore suburbs) took much of the fun out of it but the tipping point came with the current level of texting and general carelessness on the road.
Sold the last motorcycle 4 1/2 years ago and life goes on.

The only thing I find scarier is bicycling, sharing the road (for the same reasons, but with a speed differential built in).

... during my MACH 3 ~~ 500 Kawasaki days speed was your friend.

... zero to 60 MPG in 3.9 seconds.

... best shot for speed was short "blind" entree ramps. Point at the traffic *hole* in front, and pull the trigger. .

 

[Chris]

... during my MACH 3 ~~ 500 Kawasaki days speed was your friend.

... zero to 60 MPG in 3.9 seconds.

... best shot for speed was short "blind" entree ramps. Point at the traffic *hole* in front, and pull the trigger. .

My friend's strategy was to go fast enough that nothing would overtake you.
Safer when everything's scrolling in the same direction.

 

[El Dobro]

I would use a louder exhaust on my Hogs (not straight pipes) to be heard. I was nice enough at night to coast down the hill with the engine off so I wouldn't annoy the neighbors. I eventually gave up riding 'cause of drivers getting worse and friends going down. I shake my head when I see these kids on crotch rockets wearing sneakers, shorts, an open shirt and a full face lid. I guess they haven't experienced road rash yet.

 

[SilverGhost]

The wife has vetoed any motorcycle purchase for these very reasons.

But we are keep the Honda 90 (KO) because it's value has actually gone up since I got it. Also, oddly enough, everybody looks at me when I ride it. Plenty of thumbs up and waves. As long as it keeps getting that attention I'll ride it.

Jason

 

[turbovan+tdi]

I'm with you. Jason and I would be very interested in riding, but the the risks of doing so around here are too great. If we lived in a less populated area, we'd reconsider.

I stopped riding on the street in the late 2000's, drivers around here are so bad its clueless. We probably have the worst drivers in North America.

same reasons I won't ride my bicycle to work. I'm only five miles but would be lucky to make it one trip without being run off the two lane roads that were outdated 20+ years ago when I moved here. My five mile commute can take almost an hour at the wrong time.

My son bikes to school and he tells me everyday how someone cuts the corner into his lane every day.

My friend's strategy was to go fast enough that nothing would overtake you.
Safer when everything's scrolling in the same direction.

That's a great strategy until someone turns in front of you. Happened to a dear friend, RIP.

 

[bhtooefr]

ICCT assesses impact of EV battery manufacturing life-cycle emissions debt; policy implications

 

[Chris]

That's a great strategy until someone turns in front of you. Happened to a dear friend, RIP.

I fully agree.

The saying in my crowd was "there are no old, bold riders"

 

[darrelld]

Comparison of Diesel vs EV Range when Charged with Diesel Generator

https://youtu.be/tw-hHggAYFM

The Australian Electric Vehicle Association and the Tesla Owners Club of Western Australia charged a Tesla Model S P85D, which is not even the most efficient Tesla vehicle, using a diesel generator.They set out on a road trip with the vehicle and a Volvo V40, which is equipped with a T5 2L diesel engine, in order to determine the efficiency using the exact same fuel.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

https://youtu.be/tw-hHggAYFM

The Australian Electric Vehicle Association and the Tesla Owners Club of Western Australia charged a Tesla Model S P85D, which is not even the most efficient Tesla vehicle, using a diesel generator.They set out on a road trip with the vehicle and a Volvo V40, which is equipped with a T5 2L diesel engine, in order to determine the efficiency using the exact same fuel.

That's very interesting, especially considering the inefficiencies associated with charging the vehicle. Very nice comparison.

 

[tadawson]

Doesn't seem like a very significaant difference, and certainly not enough for me to want to tolerate the range limitations and charging time wasted on the Tesla . . . . Time is worth something as well!