Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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Chris

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Of course, I own enough cars that all my vehicles end up sitting for long periods of time, and I can tell you that at least half of my ICE vehicles have ended up with dead batteries and unable to start after a few weeks of sitting as well. This isn't so much a problem strictly tied to EV's - it's just that it is a problem that SHOULDN'T happen with EV's, due to the ability to charge form the large bank if/when needed.
The newer cars with "leave your fob in your pocket" access are constantly on standby waiting for you to approach the car and touch the handle/press a button to unlock it.
This is more acute with hybrids and electrics which (since they don't have to drive a 12V starter motor) have tiny 12V batteries.
None of these is set up to tap the larger battery for 12V charging unless they're plugged in.
 

CraziFuzzy

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The newer cars with "leave your fob in your pocket" access are constantly on standby waiting for you to approach the car and touch the handle/press a button to unlock it.
This is more acute with hybrids and electrics which (since they don't have to drive a 12V starter motor) have tiny 12V batteries.
None of these is set up to tap the larger battery for 12V charging unless they're plugged in.
Varies from vehicle design to design. The 12V on the fiat is the same size as the ICE version (likely why it can last a couple weeks), and many EV's WILL tap into the traction battery to top off the 12V.

Side note: The Fisker Karma had solar panels on the roof that charged the 12V battery.
 
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Oilerlord

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The newer cars with "leave your fob in your pocket" access are constantly on standby waiting for you to approach the car and touch the handle/press a button to unlock it.
My neighbor had a brand new 2009 X5 that constantly ran down the battery because of this. BMW's service reps told him this was "normal" and he had to store the key somewhere else in the house farther away from the vehicle. Who knew the BMW comfort access option also helps you get more daily steps in on your Fitbit. Win-win.
 

VeeDubTDI

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My neighbor had a brand new 2009 X5 that constantly ran down the battery because of this. BMW's service reps told him this was "normal" and he had to store the key somewhere else in the house farther away from the vehicle. Who knew the BMW comfort access option also helps you get more daily steps in on your Fitbit. Win-win.
VW’s KESSY system is the same way. Having the key too close to the car will keep waking it up, running down the 12 volt battery.
 

bhtooefr

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Mind you, at least in some cars, you can turn it off, too. If I had battery drain issues on my Prius, I'd consider just doing that, not hard to push the remote button to unlock instead.

It also doesn't hurt that my Prius has a 45 Ah 12 volt battery, that isn't being asked to start the engine, though. (And to think, my ALH only had 80 Ah, and that was asked to run glow plugs and start the engine...)
 
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Chris

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Mind you, at least in some cars, you can turn it off, too. If I had battery drain issues on my Prius, I'd consider just doing that, not hard to push the remote button to unlock instead.

It also doesn't hurt that my Prius has a 45 Ah 12 volt battery, that isn't being asked to start the engine, though. (And to think, my ALH only had 80 Ah, and that was asked to run glow plugs and start the engine...)
I believe the Gen II Prius has a button you can push to put it to sleep. The Gen III does not, but supposedly goes dormant after a week of inactivity.

I don't know what they did with the new ones.
 

aja8888

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Happy New Year everybody!

I came across a very sobering article on self driving cars and the challanges that are facing them along with comments by the movers and shakers in the automotive and technology industries. Looks like Volvo's promise to have 100 self driving cars given to a select group of citizens to use by 2017 has failed. Note their new timeline and comments by other manufacturers.

https://www.wired.com/story/self-driving-cars-challenges/

Excerpt:

Turns out building a self-driving car takes more than strapping sensors and software onto a set of wheels. In an almost startlingly frank Medium post, Bryan Salesky, who heads up Ford-backed autonomous vehicle outfit Argo AI, laid out the hurdles facing his team.

First, he says, came the sensor snags. Self-driving cars need at least three kinds to function—lidar, which can see clearly in 3-D; cameras, for color and detail; and radar, with can detect objects and their velocities at long distances. Lidar, in particular, doesn’t come cheap: A setup for one car can cost $75,000. Then the vehicles need to take the info from those pricey sensors and fuse it together, extracting what they need to operate in the world and discarding what they doesn’t.

“Developing a system that can be manufactured and deployed at scale with cost-effective, maintainable hardware is… challenging,” Salesky writes. (Argo AI bought a lidar company called Princeton Lightwave in October.)

Salesky cites other problems, minor technological quandaries that could prove disastrous once these cars are actually moving through 3-D space. Vehicles need to be able to see, interpret, and predict the behavior of human drivers, human cyclists, and human pedestrians—perhaps even communicate with them. The cars must understand when they’re in another vehicle’s blind spot and drive extra carefully. They have to know (and see, and hear) when a zooming ambulance needs more room.

“Those who think fully self-driving vehicles will be ubiquitous on city streets months from now or even in a few years are not well connected to the state of the art or committed to the safe deployment of the technology,” Salesky writes.
 

nicklockard

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Happy New Year everybody!
I came across a very sobering article on self driving cars and the challanges that are facing them along with comments by the movers and shakers in the automotive and technology industries. Looks like Volvo's promise to have 100 self driving cars given to a select group of citizens to use by 2017 has failed. Note their new timeline and comments by other manufacturers.
https://www.wired.com/story/self-driving-cars-challenges/
Excerpt:
This is the most honest writeup on the topic I've seen so far. I think most discussion on autonomous cars has been 90% hype so far. There are significant technological challenges, nevermind the HUGE societal, legal, moral, and ethical challenges required, which I believe will doom autonomous cars. I think it far more likely that more driver-assists will trickle down to luxury cars.

IMO, the key to fully autonomous vehicles will be infrastructural support: IOT-enabled road signs, curbs, and insane levels of redundant communications to enable ad hoc vehicles-to-vehicles negotiations. But such infrastructural support will be very expensive to deploy and maintain.

Another way to ease the transition is to use 2d barcodes on road features such as signs, bridges, pedestrian crossings, etcetera. This will reduce the image processing workload and free up resources for things which can not be encoded graphically. It would also be way cheaper than robust IOT enabled infrastructure.
 
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Oilerlord

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I'd agree with that assessment, though I do think that autonomous driving would / will cause the number of accidents to drop overall. Humans take risks like blowing through stop signs, running red lights, and getting loaded on NYE then getting behind the wheel. Machines don't.
 

turbobrick240

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Yeah, I got passed very recklessly by a driver I assume was drunk yesterday. In ten years time we'll probably start to see a dramatic reduction in auto fatalities.
 

nwdiver

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Self-Driving cars are dependent on machine learning. CGP Grey created a couple interesting videos on how this process works from a lay perspective. I never really appreciated that no one 'really' understands how a self-driving car works. It appears to be a bit like dog breeding... a breeder may understand how selecting for specific traits enhances those traits but won't understand the genetic expression that actually causes the traits.

How Machines Learn

How Machines *Really* Learn
 

tadawson

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Or, god forbid, go back to a licensing system based on demonstrated competence, and not just clearance of a check. Heck, in TX, with drivers ed., there isn't even a road test any more . . .

Not everything is best solved with technology . . .
 

GoFaster

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I believe there will be a next generation of driver aids that will take action when a driver attempts to do something stupid, and quasi-automated cruise control that can be used in specific circumstances, but full automation that works all the time no matter what, including in bad weather and on bad surfaces, is a LONG way off.

I can see autonomous cars potentially being better than poor drivers, but are unlikely to match good drivers. Granted, there are more than enough poor drivers out there.

What I've been hearing is that Lyft's fleet isn't getting into collisions that are the self-driving vehicle's fault but ARE getting hit by other drivers and the overall collision rate is nowhere near that of the average driver. Reason: The autonomous driver drives like the worst-case nervous driver but is instantly ready to panic brake with 100% maximum possible braking the moment anything is even slightly out of kilter, and people don't expect other drivers to act in this manner. Squirrel runs across the road -> Panic stop! -> car gets plowed into by whatever was behind. Technically a collision like this is not the self-driving car's fault, but sooner or later that nervous panic-stopping self-driving car is going to do that in front of a fully loaded tractor trailer that can't stop AND that tractor-trailer driver will have a dash-cam going to show what the self-driving car did to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGMabCggkcE

It was about 3 seconds from when it was visually apparent that the car was stopping until impact, and there is NO chance the truck could have stopped from highway speed in that time.

If that happens to a self-driving car that panic-stops when it shouldn't, it's game over.
 

CraziFuzzy

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Honestly, automated driving already works just fine.. on light rail. Cheaper than building 'smart roads'.
 

nicklockard

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I believe there will be a next generation of driver aids that will take action when a driver attempts to do something stupid, and quasi-automated cruise control that can be used in specific circumstances, but full automation that works all the time no matter what, including in bad weather and on bad surfaces, is a LONG way off.

I can see autonomous cars potentially being better than poor drivers, but are unlikely to match good drivers. Granted, there are more than enough poor drivers out there.

What I've been hearing is that Lyft's fleet isn't getting into collisions that are the self-driving vehicle's fault but ARE getting hit by other drivers and the overall collision rate is nowhere near that of the average driver. Reason: The autonomous driver drives like the worst-case nervous driver but is instantly ready to panic brake with 100% maximum possible braking the moment anything is even slightly out of kilter, and people don't expect other drivers to act in this manner. Squirrel runs across the road -> Panic stop! -> car gets plowed into by whatever was behind. Technically a collision like this is not the self-driving car's fault, but sooner or later that nervous panic-stopping self-driving car is going to do that in front of a fully loaded tractor trailer that can't stop AND that tractor-trailer driver will have a dash-cam going to show what the self-driving car did to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGMabCggkcE

It was about 3 seconds from when it was visually apparent that the car was stopping until impact, and there is NO chance the truck could have stopped from highway speed in that time.

If that happens to a self-driving car that panic-stops when it shouldn't, it's game over.
Actually, maybe that's the point all the hype is missing. Maybe we don't need 100% perfect, 100% fully automated driving aids. Just add enough to keep the idiots from doing most idiotic stuff most of the time, and detect when average drivers are distracted. If we just taper off the worst 20% behaviors, overall road safety will go up for us all in a step change.
 

kjclow

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The newer cars with "leave your fob in your pocket" access are constantly on standby waiting for you to approach the car and touch the handle/press a button to unlock it.
This is more acute with hybrids and electrics which (since they don't have to drive a 12V starter motor) have tiny 12V batteries.
None of these is set up to tap the larger battery for 12V charging unless they're plugged in.
Isn't this one of the reasons that it has been suggested keeping your keys in a tin can or similar thing while in the house? It blocks the transmissions from the keys to the car.
 

Oilerlord

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Maybe we don't need 100% perfect, 100% fully automated driving aids. Just add enough to keep the idiots from doing most idiotic stuff most of the time, and detect when average drivers are distracted.
Except that those who embrace, oppose, or are indifferent to the technology expect it to be 100% perfect, all of the time. When an incident with automated driving does happen, it's big news. The YouTube video gets posted, tweeted, and forwarded everywhere - and the general takeaway is "this isn't ready". If that's the standard that the technology is held to; it never will be ready.

Perfection in an environment filled with variables & imperfect road conditions, and then further challenged by Murphy's Law - is a tall order.
 

Chris

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Isn't this one of the reasons that it has been suggested keeping your keys in a tin can or similar thing while in the house? It blocks the transmissions from the keys to the car.
If you're in the habit of stowing your keys somewhere in the house while you're home, that could help.
My keys go in my pocket when I dress in the morning and stay there so it's not an option for me.

In any event, shielding the fob from the car doesn't eliminate the parasitic draw of the car sitting in standby.
 

GoFaster

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Except that those who embrace, oppose, or are indifferent to the technology expect it to be 100% perfect, all of the time.
That covers a pretty big percentage of the population :D (and you're right)

When an incident with automated driving does happen, it's big news. The YouTube video gets posted, tweeted, and forwarded everywhere - and the general takeaway is "this isn't ready". If that's the standard that the technology is held to; it never will be ready.
Perfection in an environment filled with variables & imperfect road conditions, and then further challenged by Murphy's Law - is a tall order.
When a person makes a mistake while driving and causes a crash, the liability starts and usually ends with the driver who made the bonehead move, and their liability insurance doesn't have anyone else to sue. In many cases, you can't get blood out of a stone.

When an automated driving system makes a mistake and creates a situation that leads to a crash (I'm making an intentional distinction from "causing" it in the legal sense - see above-linked video involving the big rig), a big company with lots of money designed it, programmed it, did the validation testing (or maybe not), and signed it off for production. Now the insurance companies and the lawyers have something that they can sink their teeth into.

The mainstream auto manufacturers "get" this. I'm not so sure that Silicon Valley does.
 

Oilerlord

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Fair enough. No doubt liability / who pays for damages caused by automation failure is another kettle of fish. Aside from that, if Autopilot technology can significantly reduce the risk of an accident; then I'm all for it. I'm just saying that expecting Autopilot technology to be 100% foolproof isn't realistic because it never will be.
 

tikal

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I have been following this subject of EVs with interest as I see them a potential good value for short trips in an mostly urban environment with certain tradeoffs of course. I am not in the market to buy a car but if I was my main concern with buying one of these used 'bargain' electrical vehicles such as the Fiat 500e would be serviceability in states that do not sell them (50 -2 = 48). Ok I understand they have, relative to an ICE, less things that can break or need maintenance, right? What if an something electronic (or electromechanical) goes bad in a Fiat 500e in the Houston area, is there an EV guru to go to fix it? What if a driver of a Fiat 500e gets in an accident in the same metropolitan area, then what?

So I buy a three year old EV for $9K; what risks I will be taking if I want to keep the car for another 8 to 10 years in an area that does not sell/service such a vehicle?
 

German_1er_diesel

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My neighbor had a brand new 2009 X5 that constantly ran down the battery because of this.
My 2008 BMW 118d has comfort access, and has never, ever not started. Though when I lived super close (2km) from work, it would deactivate comfort access one winter, I guess because of low batery voltage.
 

bhtooefr

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tikal: So, under warranty, Fiat will fly an electric specialist to your dealer if needed, as far as I know.

Outside of warranty... I think they still will, but you'll pay for it.

However, there are a fair amount of independent EV/hybrid specialists (and unlike TDI specialists, it's a growth market, across multiple brands), and there are a lot of used 500es that have left the California/Oregon area. So, independents are likely to figure out how to fix these, just like independents figured out each successive generation of TDI.
 

kjclow

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Just curious, when working on an electric car, such as the e500, what special precautions do you need to take? For instance, do you need to make sure the car is properly grounded?
 

bhtooefr

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AFAIK most of the safety procedures involve using insulated tools and gloves when working on the high voltage systems, and/or disengaging any service disconnects to ensure that high voltage is not present.

The good news is, if the vehicle isn't physically damaged, there's various levels of protection such that you don't have to worry about it unless you're actually directly working on the HV systems. And, in a severe crash, first responders are trained to go for the disconnects first.
 

El Dobro

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My niece's husband is a tech at a Ford dealer and he said besides the insulated equipment, they also have a hook to pull someone away from the car if they get zapped.
 

tactdi

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Just curious, when working on an electric car, such as the e500, what special precautions do you need to take? For instance, do you need to make sure the car is properly grounded?
Side story, and special precautions. When the battery backup (UPS) was serviced at a place I worked years ago, one of the tools in the technicians tool bag/box, and there had to be two technicians working at a time, was a
wooden cane with a hook. It was to be used by the other technician to pull the unfortunate tech off the equipment if he became shorted to it.
 

Oilerlord

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I have been following this subject of EVs with interest as I see them a potential good value for short trips in an mostly urban environment with certain tradeoffs of course. I am not in the market to buy a car but if I was my main concern with buying one of these used 'bargain' electrical vehicles such as the Fiat 500e would be serviceability in states that do not sell them (50 -2 = 48). Ok I understand they have, relative to an ICE, less things that can break or need maintenance, right? What if an something electronic (or electromechanical) goes bad in a Fiat 500e in the Houston area, is there an EV guru to go to fix it? What if a driver of a Fiat 500e gets in an accident in the same metropolitan area, then what?
So I buy a three year old EV for $9K; what risks I will be taking if I want to keep the car for another 8 to 10 years in an area that does not sell/service such a vehicle?
You sound like me about six months before I bought my EV :)

You're correct to weigh the advantages offuel savings against the risks of non-existent serviceability in your area (I did). I'm quite sure that I have the only Mercedes B250e within 1000 miles of where I live. There is also a zero chance of getting my local Mercedes dealership to service any of the electric bits in the car because they have neither the equipment or the training to do so.

So, if my battery, drivetrain, charging system, or related electrical bits break down; worst case means I'm towing it to Seattle. Not too big of a deal as I have other cars to drive, and can borrow a truck to tow it if the need arises.

I accepted that risk mostly because of the faith I have in my car's Tesla supplied battery & drivetrain, and because EV's have an overall track record of stellar reliability.

Like you, I'm also looking out 8 to 10 years with my car. I already know that there is a VERY small market for a car like mine in my area, but because I intend to keep it for a long time, resale value doesn't much matter because I will have already saved the price I paid for the car in not burning gasoline, and not having to pay for services like oil changes and related engine maintenance. With regenerative braking, I may never need to replace the brake pads either because they rarely get used.

Though your concerns are certainly valid, from my experience; I think you're reading too much into them. Notwithstanding the car's electric drive system, the rest of the car can be serviced at your local Fiat dealership. I really believe that a Fiat 500e will be far more reliable than it's Fiat 500 gasoline counterpart. Much more fun to drive too.

Hope this helps.
 
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